World Tade Center

“I took a repreive from this site and tv to check out a showbiz site. They are saying that many tv shows, and movies that have the WTC in them as well as terrorist movies will not be released.”

“I sure hope that the hot heads here read that posting Hobbit. Thank you.”

“i don't think hot heads are making the decisions that need be made. diplomacy is being used, level heads are doing what needs to be done. we will go to war, people will suffer the wrath of America. it won't be an unthought, unresearched, unplanned war. our leaders will make hard decisions that need to be made. i, for one, stand behind whatever they may be. the british played our national anthem at the changing of the guard. the majority of the world is in this with us. it has to this point and will continue to be handled properly. i have faith in what has and continues to make this the GREATEST country on the face of the earth. us. our leaders. AMERICANS!”

“Jebus Jumpin Cripes! It looks like Bacpac is being challenged for the title of TT's Bitterest, Uninformed, & Proud of It, Loudmouth.

Good luck, buddha bear! You got my vote”

“BTW - I think even Buddha would bomb those !$%&s
Buddha Bear
9/13/01

B Bear = ignoramus

Rest assured, Spock is not a traitor. I volunteered and served the USA as a young 18 year old right out of high school, and put off college until after finishing my service in the US NAVY. If I had to do it over I might not have done knowing what I do now and seeing the US government as something more evil than you want to admit or understand. I am more of a patriot than you cowards who accuse me. My wish is that we could improve the US government instead of supporting the current system in place. Cowards are people who refuse to take responsibility for their actions. i.e. -the US government, which instead of reflecting and asking *why* this happened, why arabs hate us, and what we can do to behave in a civil manner with Arabs, will instead impose the arrogant will to bomb more arabs. A couple sayings come to mind: "Everything has a reason" and "You get what you deserve."”

“Today's State Department briefing with Colin Powell get's you thinking.

He reinforced what our President outlined as a course of action, but did anyone notice that terrorist groups pitted against allies would be part of the total campaign as well? It was comforting to hear that.”

“This war is different from another point of view. If I were the enemy, what would I do considering the circumstances? If I were a terrorist, how would I defend my self? What would be my methods of defense and offense?

Well, a terrorist terrorizes and some are good at it.

In addition to striking back directly through attrition (because of limited resources), a terrorist might rely on hostages and ugly weapons to delay and distract it's opponents for its survival. It might also be for renewed attention to it's cause.

This war might not just be a war with the goal of enemy occupation and destruction, but also of careful defense against domestic attacks. As we begin to go in, we probably should be prepared for that proverbial gun to the heads of our families.

It might get pretty nasty. We have got to be really really thorough.”

“Thanks everyone for explanations of the groups, etc, Ped, arclite, humanpackmule....... especially you, humanpackmule. I was sure I read the article on the brilliant fighter named Mossad, fighting the Taliban -- not some Israeli secret police force! It was a great article too, in an issue of N'tl Geographic's Adventure mag this summer. He is a brilliant strategist in the ways of combatting the freakin' fundamentalists in the barren world of Pakistan (or Afghanistan). Maybe our government should get HIS viewpoint as someone who faces down terrorism DAILY!”

“We deserve what we got. Our government failed to protect the citizens despite years of similar terrorist attacks overseas by Bin Laden against the US, and recent warnings the past year or two that terrorism would be brought home. Why does this surprise you? Did you know that the US gave massive aid and training to the Afghan rebels to fight the Soviets when the invaded? Did you know that Bin Laden was one of those freedom fighters, as well as many in his organization? Just as Timothy McVeigh was trained by the US government. "Live by the sword, die by the sword."”

“Jesus our Lord also said, "But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you."

"Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either." -

Luke 6:27-29

Our struggle isn't about hatred or violence. It's about love, and freedom, and this country we are priviledged to live in. We can choose to be buried in bitterness and anger, or we can have hope. We can have faith in each other.

We only have one shot at life. Let's make it count and try to live honorably.”

“I don't want to sound cynical but, "God helps those who help themselves".”

“"Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go
through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of
Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just
stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war
between Islam and the West.



And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he
wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements.
It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west.
It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world
into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west
wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with
nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of
view. He's probably wrong, in the end the west would win, whatever
that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would
die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin
Laden does. Anyone else? "

The Arab-American from Hobbits post.

Sorry folks, all the more reason to carpet bomb these people. They are obviously at war with us already. If we use the two aformentioned countries as examples, maybe it would keep the rest of these radical countries at bay. If it doesn't, then we simply bomb the rest into submission.

Mr. Spock, thank you for your service to our country. We may vehemently disagree about what to do at this point, but the fact is that you didn't run and hide from the draft (like our last president) and did your duty like my Dad, and my uncles. Your opinion demands to be tolerated much more than most because of that. i apologize for calling you a traitor.”

“Lizs you're welcome.

Hobbit's post pretty much describes what my Afghani friend tells me.

Yes the info and sources that I have are definately pro-Indian and anti-Taliban.

It is very odd here at work. The Indians I work with are very excited at the thought that the US may attack Pakistan and they don't have much use for the Afghans either.

Quote from a co-worker, "Don't feel sorry for the Afghan people. They are the worse sort of brutal killer there can be."

So yes I do attempt to sift through the bias when I post this stuff but it is pretty difficult.”

“I know you all feel?and I know we all hope to be level headed, and control our anger, and Hobbit offers a letter to remind us that there are innocents?but I have problems with this, and it?s not going to be easy.

Having just returned from Glacier NP, Montana, I complained often that the pictures I took could never really convey the actual beauty?well, the pictures you all see on television really are nothing like being here, constantly smelling the burning, seeing the people crying, seeing our police and firefighters collapse from exhaustion and grief, but allowing themselves only a moment.

The president, our governor, and the mayor all immediately on Tuesday implored us to keep in mind that the perpetrators of this act of war are foreigners, and not the Arabs/Islamics who live on our soil. Then you find out these ?f?ers lived here for more than a year, receiving training on how to fly the planes. You?ll find out there were supporters, who have been living here for many years, earning more money driving cabs and doing other jobs than they could possibly earn in their countries, acting friendly, like ?perfect gentlemen?, paying their rent on time, sending the rest back home, waiting for their call to action.

Their form of warfare is to publicly say one thing, while in reality do another. Attack and deny?keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. They know this is most effective. Does anyone really believe that Yasser Arafat has really tried to stop the terrorism he so strongly denounces in Israel, and now in America. Do you really believe in his sincerity?

Yesterday, as you know, they pulled people off planes who were trying to finish their mission. A woman who works for a local newspaper was on the plane. After sitting in the plane on the tarmac for two hours, undercover police stormed the cabin with machine guns and shotguns, forcing everyone to keep their heads down, not allowing anyone to look up. Initially the passengers thought these might have been terrorists themselves: I pick up with excerpts of her account from here:

Two people in the front of the plane were quietly handcuffed and taken off the plane, one of the officers who asked not to be identified said later. The man, the officer said, was a Saudi Arabian who worked in the financial industry in Los Angeles. The woman, an American of mid-east descent, worked for him.

After detaining the pair, officers yelled out a seat number and met at the seat of a man who had identified himself to other passengers as Dhaval Shah, a jeweler based in Hong Kong. They grabbed him, and he struggled with the police. ?My friends!? he screamed. ?What are you doing? My friends!?

Passengers yelled that he had stowed a black case in one of the overhead compartments at the rear of the aircraft. Police found it and took it off the plane.

Even before he was dragged from the jet down the back stairs to the runway, the man who said his name was Dhaval Shah had made an impression. Some passengers said they noticed him in these tense times simply because he appeared foreign. But Shah was also chatty. He said that he was from India and a jeweler who lived in Hong Kong. He charmed a 5 month old baby. We spoke of the rigors it took to get on the plane. ?The security seemed beefed-up?, he said, ?which was good. Asking those things made me feel better.?
(end of excerpts)

Last night we learned that Dhaval Shah was an Indian national, reported to be a sympathizer of Saudi terrorist Osama bin Laden. The two taken off the plane were found to have fake identification, and the black case was found to contain knives, and aircraft information.

None of these persons however had criminal records. It soon will most likely be learned than few if any of the 18 hijackers had criminal records. So in response to the letter Hobbit submitted, I ask ?Innocent of what? I know people who are dead, and I know my judgment is clouded by grief and anger. But I can?t help thinking that the cab I came to work in today may have been driven by a man who in a few years will be responsible for the death of my son. And the "innocents" of their region of origin are simly lying !$%&s.

I?m trying?I?m not like this?but if you were only here?”

“Wall-Man try not to give into hate and despair they are both a cancer that will eat your very soul and make you like those you despise.

Hang in there, we are all with you.”

“Wall-man I am reading that the initial stories about the people taken off the plane were not true. Are the accounts you posted still being verified, or where they inaccurate rumour?

As of this point I don't know.”

“I am glad to know you're still there, wall-man. You've got so much stress in your life right now that I can't even fathom. You are such a good person, I hope you don't let it eat you up. Talk to folks, man. You're a tough SOB. I love ya.

Lizs, thanks. I had never heard of this Mossad fellow in Afganistan and I thank humanpackmule for the info. Be assured that the Isreali Mossad is not just "some secret police force." They are one of the best because they deal with terrorism every day.”

“Ped - I know it's not a rumour that people were taken off the planes, and that at least 10 people in total were detianed at the airports - however I am hearing that some of the reports about them having knives and pretending to be airport employees and stuff like that have been greatly exagerated. Only time will tell what reports were correct, however the fact that they've released the name of this "Shah" guy I metioned - and that his is the only name of the 10 they've released, leads me to believe they had enough evidence to consider his arrest valid, and his threat to be real.

arclite & hpackmule - thanks for the kind words, really. I feel lucky that, as far as I know, no one especially close to me has been killed - yes some people I've met it seems are gone forever - a friend lost his mother...but the overwhelming unified sorrow here is stronger than anything I've ever been a part of.

You try to find temporary distractions, and then feel guilty for it. I coached my son's hockey team last night, and for a moment that really mattered...but walking out through the parking lot towards the sunset my son points out the silhouette of mountains, but this mountain range was new, created by smoke that spread across the horizon.

Giving blood hasn't provided me enough solace. Instead of escaping, I'm going back in there to do anything - buying & handing out water, or just holding someone. Talking just seems to get me angry & emotional - I have to do more than that.”

“My sister in New York says everyone is really banding together, and that they ran out of blood bags somewhere by her.”

“I know its obcvious, but I was just really struck at how different this was than Pearl Harbor.

The Japanese struck a defense installation... they hit a miliatary target. The World Trade Center was civillian. In terms of international standards of decency and morality, this was far far worse.”

“Amen, Ped. I don't think the world has ever seen anything like this.”

“Wall-man -

The original reports about the 10 arrested last night being connected to the terrorists was untrue. All were released. The following is cut and pasted from msnbc.com:


HIJACK SCARE DISCOUNTED
Also on Friday, U.S. officials revealed that the fervor surrounding the search for other potential hijackers led security personnel at two New York airports to wrongfully detain 10 men seeking to board flights.

The officials attributed the detention of the men ? all of whom apparently of Middle Eastern descent to a combination of coincidence and hair-trigger airport security following Tuesday?s terrorist attacks. Word of the detentions also unleashed a rash of erroneous media reports that some of the men had been carrying knives and that one had attempted to use a fake pilot?s license to gain entry to restricted areas.

The detentions prompted the Federal Aviation Administration to close the New York region?s three major airports ? John F. Kennedy and LaGuardia airports in New York and Newark International in New Jersey ? to all traffic Thursday, just hours after air carriers were allowed to return to the sky for the first time since Tuesday?s attacks. All three airports were reopened at midday Friday as security concerns eased.

Sen. Joseph Biden, who said he had been briefed by CIA and FBI officials, said the incident began when a pilot for an unidentified airline attempted to pass through a security checkpoint while carrying a second set of identification - that of his brother. In what Biden said was a bizarre coincidence, the brother?s Boston address was shared by associates of some of the suspected hijackers in Tuesday?s attacks, prompting airport police to detain the pilot.
?His brother happened to live in an apartment complex that was one in Boston where some of these people had actually been. Totally totally coincidental,? said Biden, D-Del.

NO CREW IMPERSONATION
Later, nine people trying to board a flight to the West Coast were detained after security officials saw stickers on their luggage that led then to conclude they were attempting to masquerade as airport employees, Biden said. Actually, the nine were on their way to attend a conference sponsored by Boeing and had placed the official-looking stickers on their luggage, he said.
?The folks at the airport thought, ?Hey, wait a minute, are they impersonating crew?? And they weren?t,? said Biden.
A source with the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, which Biden heads, said early Friday that all but one of the 10 men had been released. The other man was arrested because he was ?belligerent,? but he had not yet been charged with anything, said Alan Hoffman, Biden?s chief of staff.
Reports from witnesses said that some of the men were removed at gunpoint from at least two separate planes.

ERRONEOUS MEDIA REPORTS
The detentions prompted a rash of erroneous media reports.
Television networks, newspapers and Internet news sites ? including MSNBC.com ? reported that at least some of the people detained were carrying knives, and indicated that authorities were investigating whether the two groups were more would-be hijackers or people related to the attack trying to flee the New York area.
New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, at a news conference early Friday, urged reporters and editors to exercise caution before airing unconfirmed reports. ?There is no reason to run with it until it is verified by police and the FBI,? he said.”

“In light of this could there be another reason that Dhaval Shah was appealing to 'his friends' human decency besides that he wanted to trick them?

I realize that you've seen alot that is very hard to absorb right now. I can only see it from accross the river but have spoken with an eye witness and know how horrible it must be for you right now.

Keep in mind that the reports indicate that about 50 people on American soil were involved in this plot out of a US muslim population of 7 million. Let's not let the terrorists destroy what this country stands for.

Stay well.”

“and vigilant.”

“and don't trust your government.”

“Violin, I heard that three are still in custody.

Spock, perhaps the news media got it wrong. Ya think?”

“Let's see and where did it start? Overzealous airport people who are now in essence PROFILING people getting on planes? Yup.

I'm not saying the practice is wrong right now (although I feel it is), but a lot of innocent dark-skinned people are gonna be stopped. I'm just saying if it's happening, the media is gonna be on it.

Think of it this way: After maybe the 20th incident where a dark-skinned person (perhaps with a turban??) is detained, will you allow it's a valid story of wrongful profiling?”

“Don't trust your government to do the right thing, either.”

“sounds like they kept one of those detainees as a material witness.”

“liz, If they charge them is it racial profiling? Should security be Underzealous?

Maybe if we were all as perfect as the critics...”

“Back to "civilization" after four days in Shining Rock. Didn't even find out about it until late Wednesday afternoon when we met the only person we saw in four days. Was out on the trail and came back to Oklahoma City; ditto Atlanta, and now this. I've either gotta stop going out, or stay out when I get there and take my chances with the bear. Still en route back up to to Massachussets. Will post a Shining Rock report when I get home next week, unless I grab my fire gear and head back down to NY. North Carolina has some awesome mountains. Still can't believe what I came back to.”

“Sometimes the wild is more civilized than civilization.”

“And sometimes civilization is more wild than the wilderness.”

“How do an airplane's flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder "black boxes" survive 2000+ temps? The steel in the WTC melted at these temps..are they made out of ceramics? Even so, the voice recording equip inside could not be.

Also, isn't looking for those boxes in the rubble sort of like looking for a needle in a haystack?”

“What a week! I had no knowledge of the attacks until late Thursday. A couple of bear hunters who were heading into the BWCA as we were on our way out told us what happened. At first I didn?t even believe it but when a second inbound party told me about it my heart broke. I went through the gamut of regular feelings but the main question I kept coming back to was, ?How can we take such a beautiful world and make it so ugly?? I felt so helpless being disconnected from everyone and everything. All I could do was pray. When I did make it out to the real Saturday I was amazed at the unity that has taken place. To see the services where Billy Gramm, a Rabbi, and a Muslim leader all standing up for the same message and praying for the same cause was amazing! To see Catholic monks working side by side with Habodic Jews at ground zero!

At the same time I found that insult can be added to injury. I was equally amazed at how easily it is for weak minds to fall into hate and generalizing of a whole race or religion. It is from their own ignorance. True Muslims are just as peaceable as Christians and Jews. There are always violent extremists in every religion (OK City anyone?). I abhor the fact that some are now looking at Arab Americans as less than what they are?fellow Americans. I saw one guy at a McDonalds on the way home that had a t-shirt on that had a list of derogatory names for Arabs on the back and on the front it said ?Towel Head? with a slash through it and the saying, ?Wanted Dead or Alive? below it. It made me ashamed to be called an American with this hateful Neanderthal.

Things will never be the same. All we can do now is work for justice and avoid vengeance.”

“Nice post Nigal. I share your sentiments.
i was wondering what it would be like to come from backpacking and learn about all this.”

“There is a story in my newspaper about a wife and mother named Alayne who headed Human Resources for a company with offices on the 90-97th floors of the second building WTC. The PA system was telling people to stay put, but Alayne told everyone to leave through the stairways as quickly and orderly as possible. Her people were just starting to exit the building as the second plane hit her building, below her office floors. She had headed up the stairs to help clear out each floor of the 8 that her company occupied. When trapped, she called her husband who tried, with the help of engineering friends at MIT, to instruct Alayne into getting the sprinklers to function. Nothing worked and finally the husband and wife said tearful goodbyes, and Alayne hung up so she and others trapped could try to find another way out. They are now missing, and the husband claims he could feel it the moment her spirit left this world. She had two young sons, and is being hailed as one of this tragedy's many heros for helping 85% of her co-workers escape the disaster alive.”

“Great post Nigal.”

“Nice story Lyndy. Sad, too.”

“I was able to do volunteer work all Friday afternoon, well into the night, and then most of Saturday. What very little help this was in the overall effort, it did go a long way in helping to heal my mind.

The outpouring of kindness, sympathy, respect and unity is truly amazing.

Look, I don't want to get into a debate against supposed great political correctness - we all know the "right" things we "should" do and "should" recognize among the Arab and Muslim persons living within our great country...but at the same time it seems extraordinarily inappropriate to generalize everyone who feels hate right now as someone with a "weak" mind. It's way, way to early for that statement and for anyone to support it.

Don't forget, you're dealing with persons who are not only feeling hate - they're dealing with anger, fear, loss, helplessness, and betrayal.

Don't forget that after Pearl Harbor, an attack by soldiers upon soldiers outside of the continental US, we interned many Japanese citizens within the U.S. Well last Tuesday's attack was lauched by those posing as peaceful visitors and citizens, upon American citizens, and we may have lost nearly 3 times as many persons as in Pearl Habor.

As a people, our eyes have long since opened as to the correct things to do. And, we've come a long way since Pearl Harbor in our recognition of the equal value of all humanity, thru important movements such as black civil rights, the feminist movement, and gay rights.

But be really careful "abhoring" those who express their hate right now in stupid ways - geez, it hasn't even been a week yet. These terrorists have generalized and profiled all Americans as evil. I am truly saddened that some fine, innocent Arab & Muslim citizens will undoubtedly feel some of the backlash from this event, however don't forget that some 6,000 of our fine, innocent citizens are now dead. Only time, action, and discussion will eventually heal all these wounds. But don't any of you dare "abhore" those who have difficulty dealing with this rationally until then.”

“"The line separating good and evil passes,not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either,but right through every human heart."

- Alexander Solzhenitsyn”

“Ther was a fire man on TB that was cryin cause his yeller lab was ded cuz they falled in a BIG hole and the dog was ded. The fire man is ok but his dog was ded and the man cryed like a baybe.

Some of the heeros are dogs.”

“The world has seen this sort of thing before; we have been mercifully spared.

My friend's sister emigrated here from India after nearly being killed when terrorists leveled seven buildings in their Bombay financial center in 1993. She was working in Lower Manhattan last Tuesday and escaped with her life a second time. She's pretty shaken.”

“Violin, maybe she was a cat in her previous life...seven more lives to go. Sarabelle, too bad dogs only got one life.”

“I heard that a gasoline station owner was killed. I suppose he was middle eastern. What a waste of people's time to go after potentially harmless people. How could someone just go and take another's person life like that.”

“"potentially harmless peolple" - ROTFLMAO”

“?But be really careful "abhoring" those who express their hate right now in stupid ways?

Wall Man, it?s not HOW they show their hate that I abhor. It?s the simple fact that that they DO hate. Righteous anger is natural and can be constructive if properly dealt with. Hate leads to nothing but destruction and death. Deal with things as you see fit and let the outcome of that be your guide for the future.

Now, I?m back to the backpacking subjects as TT is a recreational activity for me. I had meant the first post to be my only on this sad subject but I did want to clarify myself. See ya on the gear threads dude.”

“flyguy, okay, I should have said harmless people. The amount of terrorist that are still in our state are very, very tiny compared to the regular middle eastern citizens.

I don't condone harming innocent people at all.”