World Tade Center

“pedxing, you are absolutely right. I am definitely gung-ho on the retaliation, but I know it has to be primarily to prevent future violence, more-so than out of revenge.

So the trick is in how to define "judiciously" here. I am currently of the mind that we ought to target a group, not just the individuals responsible. But, the group I want to target is "known terrorists and those who harbor them," regardless of whether they were involved in yesterday's atrocities. (I may feel different about this tomorrow; I recognize this is partly an emotional opinion.)”

“I have long since told my husband to send a note to some of the lists I post on and to folks in my address book if anything happens to me. Even if he just posted to one, word would get around.”

“yeah, MP. i know quite a few folks, that post, here, too. jen or wally~ would say something.”

“Knee jerk or not.

I want to jerk my knee into some terrorists nuts.

We assign blame, and retribution should be swift and terrible.

I like how Israel deals with terrorists.

They retaliate with force, and then they go knock down some Palastinian houses.

Think Afganastan would like that treatment?

Wipe out a few landmarks and mosques?”

“i dont know how to feel right now . ANGER. I guess that is what causes all of us to just want to go get back. right now. not tomarrow, NOW! but , that is our boys going to do thios deed, are we ready for that too? are we ready to give up our sons? Ya, Ill go but leave my kid alone. I guess that sounds chicken but i'd really rather it was me than my boys. I still think were heading for world war.”

“Escalation will not break the cycle of violence. This will just feed fuel to the flames. Killing some of these people will just create martyrs and more terrorists. This is exactly what they want. In order to have the military option work, you would need to totally eradicate populations of people. One must understand how some of the fundamentalists think before reacting. The solutions are not simple.

Some possible solutions are strengthening our own security to prevent further attacks, (a hard one)ignoring the perpetrators and their followers as all they want is attention, and extending an olive branch to some groups and countries (winning over friends will loose support for those who hate us).

Ultimately our faith in a higher power, will see that those who commit evil acts will be punished. After all, an eternity in Hell is much worse than anything we can do to them in life.”

“I don't think we are headed for world war because most of the firepower is concentrated between us and our allies. I can see a situation however where there is a constant tit for tat like in Israel and Palestine. That would be a really sh!tty situation so for that reason I am in favor of overkill--we must do something huge and terrible that brings those !$%&s to their knees.”

“Wall-Man, so glad to hear you're not hurt! I don't even know what to say, except what a horrible tragedy, and so close to you.

I don't know the best way to help, but donations can be made here -
http://www.nyredcross.org/index.htm”

“We need to ask ourselves just what price we, as Americans, are willing to pay for our current level of world involvement. When was the last time Switzerland was the target of a terrorist attack?”

“Why are we worried about escalation of terrorism if we retaliate? Escalate to WHAT? You can't do too much worse than this. Religious zealots aren't going to respond to anything so you might as well wipe them out or disable them so badly they won't be able to respond. If the harboring States (e.g. The Taliban in Afghanistan) can't assist, or refuse to turn these people over, they're just as guilty. The voters in this country apparently bought the tough talking, "don't mess with Texas", macho attitude in last fall's elections. I want to see these guys walk the walk. Cheny, the tough-talking,Wyoming cowboy, hasn't said peep yet. At least Colin Powell's philosophy is to "use more force than needed", to get their attention.”

“How big is Switzerland?

What do we have that they don't?

How much can Switzerland do to affect global politics and lifestyles?

It is what we represent and who we are that makes us a target.

Boys fought and won WW2.

It was a just war.

Should we declare some sort of war action, this nation I think, will come together to defend and protect ourselves and global liberty. Boys and young men will again volunteer to fight for this country and their right to be free from terrorism.

This is not Viet Nam.

This is war brought home to us in our homes.

I would shoot any ba$tard who tried to come into MY home to take what belongs to ME.

We must react the same way to those who steal lives and freedom from the rest of us.

This action was the rape of freedom.

Always remember what we lost yesterday.

This is the beginning of a new day.

Fight, or be sheep for slaughter.”

“phil, i always respect what you say, so let me quote you at this point in the thread... for those who missed it.

"The taking of innocent life using random acts of violence is intended to cause us to either give up our freedom or have it taken from us under the guise of "safety". The goal is to take away our freedom without conquering us."”

“Rad,
So what? I'm tired of people dying. Thomas Jefferson: Freedom is not a suicide pact!"”

“wow! let's see if you can miss the point, any more than that!”

“Amen Mel. Aero and twig. I guess Kleety just doesn't get it - Switzerland?!?! What kind of lame comparison is that? We will only have peace when these people are dead and gone.”

“I noticed that phrase in Phil's post too. It was well put, relevant and worth recycling.”

“phil is a wise dude.”

“I hear ya mel...Switzerland could probably be a world player if they chose to. They choose not to -- through neutrality -- and are unscathed. What does Switzerland represent? Who are they? I dunno. That's the choice they've made as a nation.

My point is that we could choose the same path...but we would lose our position as a world leader, as a cultural force, as an influential democratic beacon. No free lunch and I doubt it would sell to a country that is used to the role.”

“The Switzerland comparison, I believe, came from an article on msnbc.com.

The question was being asked (paraphrasing): Given that we are targets of violence and hatred because of our role as "global peacemakers, global policeman," are we willing to pay this price? Or should we, as does Switzerland, practice isolationism, help no one, offend no one, take no sides...and thus ensure our own peace?”

“Oops, I shouldn't have said the Swiss "help no one," that is probably not accurate. Got carried away, there.”

“At this point we are just praying for the families of the people killed, the ones that survived and for the rescurers families. There is still alot of pain happening.

I'm all for revenge - but we have to be exact and served cold. When they don't expect it.

I can't believe that the government didnt know about this. Didnt even expect it. If this is the case - we have more problems to deal with.

Another thing, I dont know about your area, but, we are starting to get reports of incidents of small retaliations on abrab peoples, of abrab people celebrating in Jersey City. So there is still alot to deal with.”

“You are so right, Bud(soaked) Bear, I just don't get it. You obviously do get it....in the ass every night.”

“oh, man.”

“In 1976, I landed a C-5 Galaxy. I was co-captain. One of my classmates was the captain. He took the plane down the runway and lifted her off. We cruised to an altitude of 10,000 feet, at which time I took over control.

I was instructed to bank to the left, and to continue to do so until the compass approached a certain heading, at which time I was to begin to straighten until we were flat and heading back in the direction from which we came.

I was then instructed to do this and that in order to begin a descent toward the distant runway lights. Within a minute or so, I sat the largest aircraft in the free world gently onto the runway.

All this was done in a simulator inside a semi-trailer. It was Career Day at my high school, and the USAF had by far the coolest display.

There are undoubtedly dozens (hundreds?) of flight simulators for both the 767 and the 757.

Learning to crash-land a jetliner was one of the easiest segments of the terrorist's plot.”

“Whatever Kleetn. "You are so right, Bud(soaked) Bear, I just don't get it. You obviously do get it....in the ass every night. "
--Kleetn

I guess insulting gay people, and making fun of me is ok for you. It displays a real mature attitude on your part.

I am sure Switerland has a plavce for you Kleety, maybe you should look into living there, so you don't have to deal with any world responsibility.”

“"If you are in a battle, as long as you remain ignorant of the status and combat capability of your enemy, you will be totally unprepared and paralyzed by fear. However, if you know the fighting capability of your opponents, what sort of weapons they have and so on, then you're in a much better position when you engage in war. "

-Dali Llama

Looks like some people don't know the capablity of our ememies, and base their arguements on fear.”

“The one thing I know for sure is that my 16-year-old daughter called me last night for some fatherly reassurance, gamely trying to say all was fine before she broke down in tears. And the best I could say long distance was "it's going to be all right" when I knew in my heart that it may not be.

First, we must tend to ourselves: our families, our neighbors, our fellow citizens, so that when we turn our faces to the threat, it will be with our full and undivided attention.”

“BB- shut up. Believe me, not one of us has any "world resoponsibility anyway. Do you take care of the U.S.? I think not. Peoples beliefs are protected, even kleetys. Take the crap that people deal on here, or get out!”

“Bud Bear, I shouldn't have made a personal attack on you. For that, I apologize.

Your comment ..."and base their arguements on fear" is EXACTLY what you were proposing based on your previous posts, i.e. rounding up all those of Middle Eastern descent and shipping them off. Can you not see that?”

“Set 'er down easy!

mel-
You is a bad one!”

“Gear Slut:

"Some possible solutions are strengthening our own security to prevent further attacks, (a hard one)ignoring the perpetrators and their followers as all they want is attention, and extending an olive branch to some groups and countries (winning over friends will loose support for those who hate us)."

This doesn't make much sense to me. Are we to "extend the olive branch" to Iraq, Afghanistan, and other nations whose governments happily host terrorists within their borders, in the hopes that they will suddenly realize that they have been wrong all this time about "The Great Satan"? Then of course they will hand over bin Laden & his fanatical buds so that we can put him on trial (with a good lawyer of course), and maybe even sentence him to death. Somehow this does not seem like justice to me. These governments have refused for years to turn this madman over to us, and their refusal to comply is responsible in part for thousands of American deaths yesterday. If they continue to refuse to hand him over after this, they KNOW they are going to be attacked by our military. They are not stupid, but defiant.”

“OK Tahoe, I'll shut up just becuase you told me to. What an a$$, by telling me to shut up, you make yourself a hippocite.

Kleety, your views are your views, the personal attacks I can do without. I wholheartedly accept your apology, and respect your opinion, although I don't agree with most of it.

Tahoe, when you attack people personally, you display your weakness in your arguement. Show me some logic, like Pedxing did, or Violin did, but to make a personal attack, that's plain wrong. If you must, and dislike what I have to say, you can come here and shut me up. I'll stand my ground regardless.”

“To all you lilly livered weak people out there that don't want to fight back. The event is not over. The people that are alive have not been rescued yet. The death toll is unknown. The individual stories have not been told. The firefighter that was the father of 10, the police officers that were crushed, the ordinary working people that won't come home, the people waiting at home for them to return. Maybe when these personal stories become available you will see the light.

I know New Yorkers will come together. They are a unique group of people, and the President will make a decision, and we all need to be together, to stand as one.”

“It is not over. CDC even sent out a warning to look for unusual patterns of illness, that might indicate biowarfare. People who do this sort of thing will not stop until their goals are reached. They feel they have nothing to lose, and Paradise to gain.”

“Lipstick, who are you referring to that dosen't want to fight back? I didn't see that in any of the posts here. What I did see were some opposed to the "kill 'em all- let God sort 'em out" attitude. I'm puzzled?”

“Ah the Dali Lama. Perhaps the least known of Salvador's major works. I saw that exhibited in 1978 along with the famous Dadaist work "Art Fart."”

“I sniffed *er* saw that painting too! Sal was a tad lilly livered, though, wouldn't you agree? snort!”

“I am not violence prone.

I'm not normally a vengeful, or angry person.

It takes a lot to piss me off, and it takes a lot more to get me to show it.

I will take a lot of sh!t before I get up and hit back.

We have suffered a major blow, and an inexcusable assault to our physical, personal, and emotional selves.

An example must be, and should be made.

Hiroshima comes to mind.

We have lived tip-toeing on eggshells for the last several years to avoid rocking the global boat.

Look where it got us.

If I had my way, and I am sure most of you will be happy to know I WON'T have my way, and you can call me any kind of savage you want and I won't give a good-Goddam.... we would deal with this unconscionable act with an act equally lacking in humanity and scruples.

Hunt down these men and kill them.

Hunt down their families and kill them.

Hunt down their supporters, to the last man, and kill them.

Create as much fear and terror as they have visited upon us.

This incident is equal in horror to any past historical act of mayhem.

The loss of life may not have been as great as what happened in the Holocaust, or the genocide in Africa or the Balkans, but in scope, it is as broad.

War has been declared on us.

One does not turn the other cheek, try to "understand", or attempt to explain away human nature and then call the rest of us savages for our demands for revenge.

If we are to continue on as the great nation we have been.....

WE MUST NEVER ALLOW CRIMES OF THIS MAGNITUDE TO SUCCEED WITHOUT EMPLOYING AN EQUALLY HORRIFIC RESPONSE.

It is not just for us to harm or persecute our citizens of middle-eastern extraction.

It is our duty to protect them.
They, as a race, are not at fault.

However it IS our duty to repay, in kind, the brutal attack on OUR innocent civilians by equally brutal treatment of those responsible for these actions.

The only way to end terrorism, is to create fear and terror in the hearts of the terrorists.

The terrorists think of themselves as martyrs; they consider a glorious violent death for the cause worthy.

They go to a heaven with seven virgins for each man, and rivers of milk and honey.

For eternity.

Make an example of their villages.

Make an example of their followers and families.

These men may not be rational in the ways we define rational, but how many "humans" would continue to risk the survival of their entire family line by condemning them to certain death by their terrorist actions?

Do you think some of these "men" might reconsider future actions planned against the United States and other free powers if they were certain their mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, aunts, uncles and cousins faced death as a consequence of terrorist acts?

Or do these terrorist organizations recruit only orphans?”

“Taliban wants proof about bin Laden.

+

"we will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them." -President's National
Address

= Disaster for Afghanistan


Afghanistan should be preparing its citizens for what is to come.

Infratructre (communications, transportation, etc) and military facilities would be likely targets.”

“"The terrorists think of themselves as martyrs; they consider a glorious violent death for the cause worthy."

Mel, you give your own answer to why the super terrorism you advocate to stop terrorism won't work.

When we exact our revenge, we should not wallow in the blood we spill, but find a grim satisfaction in punishing the guilty with precision, certitude, and relentlessness. We must do it not out of misguided fanaticism as those who struck against us may have acted, but out of clarity and purpose and a consitent, rigorous, examined moral stance that finds no delight in killing, but does not shy away from what becomes necessary.”

“OMG, some of you people obviously don't get it so let me try this again. You cannot defeat Islamic militants with violence. They feed on it. They get even more fervent when it's a close loved one which is hurt. You reap what you sow.

To LH, BB, and OmahaHiker, be my guest, so show us all how tough you are. Enlist or shutup. It's real easy to be a tough guy behind your keyboards.”

“Gear Slut = Dumba$$
Nuff said!!”

“Now that was enlightening! One must always consider the source.”

“Gear Slut - I'm too old to join up, but my son is in the Army. It is my preference not to lose him, but I understand the risks involved in a military enlistment, and I'm sure he would serve honorably if we went to war.”

“Terrorists Don't give a sh!t about THEIR ass, but you wonder if the lives of their families might give them pause.

How many of you fanatics out there would sacrifice your mother or children to "heaven" for what you believe?”

“Le Subtil, I'm not aiming my statement at anyone that has posted already. From what I have read, everyone seems to agree that there should be a physical punishment.

I'm sending that statement out to anyone who thinks there shouldn't be a physical retaliation. Last night in Seattle, the news was broadcasting a group holding hands and saying to give peace a chance.

If I had thought there was someone that didn't think we needed physical retribution, I wouldn't have pointed them out. Now is not the time to argue amongst ourselves.

Gear Slut, I know it's easy to say go to war when you are not involved. Unfortunately, this is the answer. I just hope that when it happens, it will be an air attack to limit casualties on our side.

I've responded to your statements. You are entitled to your opinion, but what is your opinion? What do you think the answer is to this situation?”

“Gear Slut,
Violence is the only thing that terrorist do understand. If you roll over and belly up they will eat you alive. When we find out who did this, and we will, we should dish it back 10 fold!! If our so called friends object, screw em... and stop payment on their damn checks!!”

“My feelings exactly, pekka.

We need some lessons from Mossad.”

“All I want to know is HOW OLD the people are who are pushing non-violence.

If you're under 40, you ain't got a clue.

I believe those of us who are the children of the WW2 generation, and Viet Nam Vets REALLY understand the anger produced by this catastrophy.

You lose anyone, or know anyone killed yesterday?”

“Gear Slut: Military retribution is called for, because this was an attack on our sovereign soil. I guess you would have us say that Pearl Harbor was some form of terrorism, and therefore the perpetrators of the attack on Pearl Harbor couldn't be defeated, either! God knows, the Japanese Imperialists sure fed on violence (if you don't believe me, read some history before you try to refute this).

It should also be realized by everyone by now that this was more than just the work of a few crazed fanatics - this evil act was the result of a concerted effort conducted by one or more nations against the innocent people of our country. The stakes for sponsoring terrorism must be made so high, so EXPENSIVE, that no country will be willing to engage in such activity again! Personally, I DON"T GIVE A DAMN ABOUT "JUSTICE!" I want this whole CRAP to end, and the only way that's going to happen is if the nations of the world are made to realize that allowing terrorists to live, train, etc. in their countries will cause those nations to risk their very own survival.

I refuse to just throw up my hands and say, "oh well, there's nothing we can do!" It will be a long hard battle, but it will be worth it in the end. If you think by ignoring violence that it will go away, then you're only doomed to have it visited upon you again and again.

They wanted a war - we shall give them one. But they will not get what they wanted from such a war. Rather, they will see their resources and safe harbors become smouldering heaps of glass and ash. And we will not stop until those remaining (if indeed there are any) realize the futility of their ways. It worked with the Japanese, it can work with the Taliban.”