World Tade Center

“Wall Man, do you work anywhere near the WTC? What was your experience yesterday, if you want to talk about it.

We can all agree that a response is necessary, some are just saying lets find out the facts before we retaliate. The facts will dictate how we retaliate, and against whom. It doesn't do any good in this little community of people with a common interest to call each other names when we disagree.”

“LH, I have already given my solutions.

I too want to see the people responsible punished, however, in such a way that we wont continue to be a target to more terrorism.

Perhaps when the perpetrators are finally caught, we can give them the due course of fair trial by our standards and then hand them over to one of our friendly Arab states to administer the punishment according to Muslim law.”

“I do not say this frivilously, but I say take no prisoners. As for turning them over for Muslim punishment, the crime was against the U.S., and we should dole out the punishment.”

“Mel, I like you. And what Forrest said.”

“I'm assuming that we WILL beat the crap out of at least one country for harbouring terrorists. That may be satisfying but it won't be nearly enough.

This war will last for years. Many children in these countries are indoctrinated into hatred. The Arab culture is one of many that demand eye for an eye retribution. The killing will continue.

Personal infiltration, improved intelligence gathering through communications systems both ground and satellite based, and a singleminded will to carry out executions for years may be our lot.

I don't believe one big strike will do it. The face of war has changed.

Two quotes I posted earlier come to mind:

 "...- and the question is: What does a sane man do in an insane society?"

Joseph Heller, 1923-1999


 ?The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.?


I don't much feel like adapting to a world with terrorists.”

“Mel: Don't you see??? Terrorists often start off at about where you are. They believe something absolutely terrible has been done and they are willing to take it out on people who are innocent. Like Leatherneck, they want retribution to be 10 fold or greater.

Blood always cries for blood and if we let that cry consume us, so will the blood bath that ensues.

Again, I am no pacifist.

I think what the people who did this want is war and bloodshed. I think these terrorists want to smash all chances for peace and cooperation... they would love to see this lead to war. Osama Bin Laden has been disowned by his family, and by his nation. He would love to see his family, his country, and the world bloodied and embattled in a holy war between the Islamic world and the US.

I don't not know if he was behind all of this. News reports say that he denied involvement, but applauded the attacks (for many reasons I think it would serve his interests to deny it, whether he did it or not). I do know that if this results in US military action that leads to retaliation against the US, he will be filled with glee.”

“I find the statement that only those over 40 have any "real" understanding to be insulting. Stupidity and ignorance know no age.

One hopes that when the anger finally leaves, most of you will begin to think clearly again.”

“I can't get over the fact that US citizens were used as weapons against their country.

I cannot think of a more antagonistic way of challenging our country.

It's a good thing that these people, whoever they are, are fulfilled by dying for their cause; I think many of them are about to be fufilled.”

“Osama Bin Laden has been supported by the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and by Iraq. These nations must learn the error of assisting and bankrolling such activities. They WILL learn this, but only after much "convincing."

It cost America 300,000 lives to "convince" Germany and Japan to lay down their arms. It will most definitely cost American lives to rid the world of the likes of Bin Laden and Hussein.

But it would cost us even more to permit the Islamic world to believe that the US is now a "doormat." Yesterday, I heard and read the comments of many Islamic leaders, and while many condemned this act, many others remarked on how the US has been "weakened" by this attack. As long as this belief is held, our public reamins even MORE prone to attack by would-be "topplers of the Great Satan."

[Osama Bin Laden would love to see his family, his country, and the world bloodied and embattled in a holy war between the Islamic world and the US]

That's only because he is incapable of fathoming the will and might of the US people when united in war. Don't forget that Hitler and Tojo ALSO longed for war with the US. However, once they got it, it was too late for them to realize the extent to which they had underestimated the strength of our society.

We will have a war, I guarantee it. It will cost us dearly, but the cost of freedom is never cheap. In the end, we will be stronger and wiser for having finally rid the world of this scourge.

Granted, we will also still have terrorism after this war, just as we still had wars after WWII, but it will be a LONG time before another country considers terrorism as a viable means of diplomacy.”

“Pedxing,
I know you believe in what you are saying and I respect your opinion. However, it is just not in me to agree with your point of view.”

“Gear Slut, one of the bomber's that was being held for sentencing in New York was able to stab a correction's officer in the eye with a sharp object. He is now blind, bed ridden, needs a diaper, and can't speak. The sharp object was thrust through his eye, and into his brain. He will never come out of this condition.

This is why I say take no prisoners.”

“Lips... I hadn't heard about this incident. If you get a chance, could you please give me a link or reference for this event?

This kind of thing is why I am not against the death penalty - even though I am really skeptical that it can ever be administered fairly. There is no way to lock people up so that they can never harm anyone again (at least not in the US).”

“The guy who LH is referring to has his trial coming up next week, I believe.”

“Looks like it is his sentencing coming up.

More on Bin Laden Conspirator”

“Bud Bear, hey I was talking without reading. Just finished reading all the entries and must apologize myself. Take it easy anyhow.
Note to self "must think before I post"
Sorry BB.”

“Here is one of the original stories about the attack.

Prison Attack”

“OK, someone please clarify the fundamentalist views here:
1. Islamic Gihad (sp?)
2. The Taliban

Double checking with you Arclite, I believe I read a story on Mossad in a National Geographic's Adventure magazine. He is fighting the Taliban, correct? And gaining some amazing victories with his small band of soldiers, correct? Where were they fighting?

Do I have this right? Taliban are extreme right wing Islamic fundamenalists (freaking nutzo in other words? Or are they Muslim? Or are Islamic people mostly Muslim? Guess I better go find that article again!)

Who does bin Laden lead? Where does the Islamic Gihad fit in?

Sorry to be such a dope. I just figured I better get this all straight since it sounds like that's where retaliatory efforts might be focused.”

“Wow lizs, it's nice to see someone who wants to learn more before threatening to nuke everyone.

kudos to you!

When you get it all figured out can you let me in on it?”

“I understand the impulse to retaliate, and I don't have any answers, but I can only think about the very real possibility that it won't be possible to recover from an escalating chain of violence and vengeance. There is no guarantee that we will be stronger after retaliating or that it will deter terrorism. If a person is committed to doing evil, is it possible to deter him/her?

Here in Maine, yesterday was an idyllic day. As my 3rd/4th grade students were enjoying their morning recess, our school administrator brought the news to me. We did not tell the children. I spent much of last night wondering how I would respond to them today. How could I speak in a way that would not scare them when I myself am scared? Their questions and comments today were rather simple, but amazingly esoteric and philosophical.

Imagine the most extreme outcome of this situation... because I really do think that this is only a beginning... Many people all around (not just this thread) are advocating nuclear war. What if life as everyone (and I do mean everyone) knows it is destroyed? Is that an option? My greatest fear is that it is.”

“CNN had a video-and-sound clip of the two WTC plane impacts on their website yesterday (don't know if it's still there). Hearing the sound of the first plane impact the tower, I could feel my teeth rattle.”

“I also found a story referencing bin Laden and some of the fundamentalist groups:

”

“frig...

bin Laden/Islamic/Taliban info”

“What to do...

Many have made the point that if we don't respond in a major way that we will be seen as weak and terrorists will go for the kill. Others have said that if we respond aggresively that the terrorists will get pissed off and attack more--Gihad (sp).

I think that the history of terrorism shows that both positions are correct. Terrorists are going to continue to try to get us either way.

So what to do? I'm certainly no expert, but then I think that few of us are.

Here is my opinion...and uninformed as I am it might be wrong.

Our soil, our freedom was violated in the worst way and we must do much. Of course we must overhaul our airports. We must increase our efforts (& $$) for intelligence and foreign affairs.

But we must, I feel, punish severly the responsible. The individuls need to be executed. We need to declare war on terrorism--regardless of the boundaries. When a country helps or aids terrorists then they choose to enter the war with us. Such countries need to have their military, infrustructure, political makeup, economics, etc. destroyed. We need to break their backs. We, as a humanitarian nation that values human life should try to avoid killing civilians, but some will die. That should not deter us. They'll be happy with Allah. No, I'm not a killer. I don't want to see children and peaceful people die in these countries. Most won't. But the alternative is to be at a higher risk for yesterday to repeat.

Those broken and defeated countries would be rebuilt and occupied for us--for peace and security. In the long run it will be far more humane and safe for their citizens than now. Other countries, valueing their homes, families, autonomy, etc. would choose to back terrorists and get the same or choose to oppose terrorists too.

I know this is not a clean easy measure. It will take time and huge commitment. Many won't have the stomach for it. Do we have the stomach to continue as we have in past years?

The war against terrorism should be an ongoing war that heats up and cools down with terrorist activity--a new kind of war. An ongoing responsibility for our government and military.

So that yesterday won't happen again.

I'm opposed to undertaking a limited action as much as I am opposed to doing nothing. Either way terrorism will continue.

Breaking terrorism will be hell and may always be with us..something that anti war folks will abhor. I hate war. I know that everyone here does.

But sometimes life sucks. At least zero tolerance for terrorism will make it less likely that an American child will have his/her parents blown up in a plane or in their office.

By the way mel, I am 36 and was scared to death as a young child in the 60's watching Viet Nam on TV. But I get your point.

When I was young I was frightened, perhaps unnecessarily so, by the predictions that "war was coming here" and "we have to kill the commies over there or they'll come kill us here.."

Well, yesterday we should have learned that it has finally "come over here." Today it is fuel-filled jets.

Tomorrow will it be nukes and biological plagues? Only by killing terrorists and breaking the backs of nations friendly to them will we stop it here.

Well, am I nuts or what?”

“woops, I meant to say it will be "rebuilt and occupied BY us", not FOR us. I mean we will have a military presence there. I would never advocate taking a country FOR us.”

“thanks for the link Pathman.”

“Thanks Pathman, for the link. As you can see, the man is being given a life sentence, which will be given to him on Sept 19th.

I know correction officers and went to see this correction officer in his hospital bed with his family holding a vigil in a nearby room. I touched his foot and he smiled, and I felt like crying, but we were already told before seeing him that we shouldn't react to seeing him in such bad condition.”

“If anyone read the article that Pathman made the link to, the !$%& lawyer for the bomber said that the middle eastern bomber liked the guard. Yeah, everybody at the prison loved Pepe, but it didn't stop this !$%& from sticking Pepe in an attempt to excape to another part of the prison and kill another comrade that was ready to flip (tell on) them that was in another part of the jail.”

“Again, reiterating what some have already said....Let us retaliate against those responsible and in a way that breeds the least amount of future terrorists. The world is witness to the means with which we mete out justice.”

“wow, I was using the word b@stard lawyer, and forgot that I couldn't do that, and it replaced it with the garbily stuff, cool.”

“I would:

1) Declare war on the "currently unnamed individuals and countries responsible for the airline hijackings and subsequent attacks on US soil."

This opens the floodgates for the White House to conduct an all-out hunt for the identities of both the prepetrators of the crimes, and those countries that assisted them in their evil deeds. It also sets the stage for preparation for all-out hostilities. The Persian Gulf War might look like a walk in the park when this one's over.

2) Once we have a clear idea of those people/countries involved, we inform them that we will not tolerate such action. As a demonstration of our resolve, we tell the leaders of the countries that they must decide which pre-picked targets (i.e., cities) within their countries they wish to sacrifice - we destroy them. If they don't choose, fine - we obliterate twice as many as we would have had they chosen.

3) We demand they deliver, ALIVE, Osama bin Laden, Saddam Hussein, and whoever else we want - if they don't - boom, more cities become rubble.

4) Repeat demand and response until we have those responsible in our hands.
If they are never delivered, we continue to attack these countries until UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER is achieved, and their constitutions are rewritten (a la Germany and Japan).

5) Should bin Laden et al. be taken alive, we try them in OUR courts, and then execute them, similar to the Nurenberg trials.

6) When all is said and done, inform those Islamic states with whom we have just ended hostilities that, should there be ANY more such attacks on the US or our allies, we will not go through this process again - we will simply eradicate their capitals from the face of the earth, regardless of whether or not they are guilty of the attacks. This puts the burden of policing their OWN people back on THEIR shoulders.

If we don't have the will to face the challenges of defending freedom with these sort of extreme measures, then you might as well start wearing robes and learn to read Arabic.”

“Enough with the polital propaganda! America's FREEDOM is not under attack as politicians and fools who eat it up seem to be encouraging us to believe. Rather, it was America's ARROGANCE that has been attacked and suffered a casualty.
Secondly, why are the USA and Isreal the world's biggest targets for attack? They don't attack Switzerland, Canada, Japan, etc, etc. It's the way the USA and Israel disrespect Arabs. Think about your own personal relationships...do you like an arrogant person? In the eyes of the rest of the world, the USA is ARROGANT. George Bush suckered Saddam into that war, it was Bush's little secret. George W. as president is responsible for National Security. He miserable failure is unprecedented in US history. If you are angry and want to fix things, get angry at Bush and his foreign policy. Getting mad at terrorists and bombing some backwards society like Afghanistan isn't going to accomplish any more than trying to kill cockroaches...they are hiding everywhere and you'll never kill them all.”

“It's always amazing to me how dumb people really are. They grunt, posture, and mouth mindless violent rhetoric right on cue. Most of the people spouting off here sound no different than the brainwashed fundamentalist terrorists. Kill, Kill, Kill!

The USSR bombed the crap out of Afganistan and the vermin survived. They sent troops into Afganistan, a country which shared a border with them, and they still gut their butts whipped. What makes people think that the USA can do differently?”

“Spook - You couldn't be more wrong.

This attack was greater in its cowardice, more dastardly, more evil, than the attack on Pearl Harbor. And you have the pusilanimous audacity to say it was America's FAULT that they were killed? These were innocent people killed, but you justify the act with complaints of ARROGANCE? You're an idiot - I just hope there aren't more Americans like you (if you are indeed American).

You don't have to kill them ALL, just enough. Try reading a history book sometime.

By the way, HITLER never attacked Switzerland, either. They also have an economy equal to that of Wisconsin's
(or some other state - certainly not as great as California's or ...NEW YORK'S). What POINT would there be in attacking Switzerland? Do you think that the US is the ONLY country that supports Israel? If you do, you're wrong; we're just the biggest.

I can't believe you can sit there, knowing what happened yesterday, and try to lay this at the foot of the US President. He's been in office for what? Eight months? My guess is that this act has been planned for years! So I guess that makes CLINTON to blame by your reasoning, right?

Finally, I should point out that I DIDN'T VOTE FOR BUSH, but I at least realize that he is now our president, and deserves our support in this difficult time. And for you, Spook, I'm sure we could take up a collection for a one-way ticket for you to move to Kabul - at least they're not ARROGANT there.”

“Slut - I'm wondering: is there ANY act by a foreign power that you would consider worthy of an act of war? Apparently not, since killing upwards of ten thousand CIVILIANS, leveling two of the biggest buildings in our main city and attacking our military command center don't warrant it in your estimation.”

“Innocence? How innocent was the US military in Vietnam killing children. How innocent was the US in killing children and innocent people suffering under Saddam? That war was not "started" by Saddam, it was ultimately created by Bush.
As far as all the innocent people being killed in Ny, I am sorry and sickened. Now *you* might know how others see the US when their country is bombed by the US and innocent people are killed, and no longer be so arrogant.”

“Also, no adult in the US is *innocent*. Every American IS the USA: you voted for the government, therefore YOU are responsible for the actions of that government. On the other hand, the people killed in IRAQ by the US military WERE innocent since they had little choice in the matter of what their dictator does.”

“We lose our freedom in small increments if we are not diligent. For example: First it was metal detectors at airports. Then it was not allowing non-passengers near the gate on international flights. Next it will be not allowing non-passengers anywhere near the gate for domestic flights too. Those are losses of freedom caused by terrorists...permanent memorials of their success. (Note: Many laws are the same way...caused by those who are irresponsible. For example, responsible 16 year olds in California cannot drive with passengers under 20 years old in their car because irresponsible teen-agers caused too many accidents).

When people won't go near a skyscraper because they fear they will be inside during a terrorist attack, it is a loss of freedom.

tekapo - I didn't read all the posts above, so I missed some comments. However, what I meant by "lose two ways" would be if the President took advantange of this situation to create new federal powers. That, on top of the losses on the east coast, is what I was referring to.

Spock - To some extent the Islamic militant fanatics do feed on our retaliation. On the other hand, they consider us spinless cowards if we don't defend ourselves and will continue. I personally think the answer is in discouraging those who harbor them...those who are not quite as fanatical.

Welcome to the 21st century.

I was talking to some people today. After the reveling in the streets of the Palestinians over the destruction of the WTC, I don't know anyone who cares if Israel bombs them to smitherines now. Gaza what??”

“The Palestinian children celebrating reminded me of something I saw a few years ago while channel surfing... there, on Jerry Springer, were 5 and 6 year old children in full Ku Klux Klan regalia. Hate is taught.”

“That is a part of this that is tough, Tilt. At what point do the children become responsible parties, and no longer victims of the hatred they are taught?”

“Spook:

So, what you're saying, the people that died yesterday deserved to be killed in retribution for America's involvement in VIET NAM?

I rest my case; it's obvious you haven't a clue...”

“I don't know. When they hit an Israeli soldier in the head with a rock? We have the same dilemma here. When should children be prosecuted as adults? They seem to be getting younger all the time.

Back to the problem at hand... Have we taken any time here to consider 'why' we are so hated by these people that they would commit these acts?

It isn't just our support of Israel. There's much more history here.”

“I'm not saying our support of the Shah and his death squads gives these people carte blanche to murder us --- I wonder who we are supporting NOW... who will breed the Next generation of terrorists? Why not short-circuit the process, if at all possible?

Are we locked into this cycle?”

“There's probably not much we can do about that. Consider the deep animosity that has been between Serbia and Bosnia. It's still there even after allied intervention. Our compassion must rest at home first.

Our comprehensive annihilation of terrorist groups, to include those indirectly responsible, must be done to such an extent that Islamic culture, and other Nations, become aware of immiment destruction if they begin to organize or contemplate what their ancestors have been guilty of.”

“Yes, each side attempted genocide on the other at various times, resulting in 'Balkanization.'

I'm just trying to think this through, to try and focus on outcomes.

I wouldn't call it 'compassion,' per se... more like 'enlightened self-interest,' if there was any possible chance of convincing the next generation, without more horrendous losses of life on both sides. If you have won the 'hearts and minds,' the bad guys no longer have a foot-hold.

It seems like lots of people want much more than a proportionate response in the present situation, which is easily understandable. I wonder what the Joint Chiefs will come up with. If we carpet-bomb an entire nation, we become worse than the terrorists. The approach taken with Germany and Japan after the Second World War was successful, but I don't know if the public is prepared to support a full occupation lasting tens of years.

In dealing with smaller groups, we can't point to much success with anti-drug operations or La Cosa Nostra. No matter how many are jailed or killed, there always seem to be more to fill their shoes.

I don't want to imagine a guerilla war where the guerillas have the entire Third World to hide in, biding their time while they develop even nastier plans (Nuclear-Biological-Chemical).

I don't know. If there were more effective ways of dealing with these problems, I think we should have discovered them before now.

The foremost consideration should be avoiding escalation. As bad as Tuesday morning was, there are worse things.”

“We must have no compassion - we know where there are terrorist camps throughout the world. We have declared war on terrorist, and must bomb the bejesus out of EVERY camp. If the camp is located under a school, or hospital, bomb it. If the camp is masquarading as a mosque, or McDonalds, bomb it. No scruples, no mercy.

As for joining the military, I'll wait to see what happens. Right now, you don't need too many people to press buttons and drop bombs. I do know this, if there was a draft, or if we began a massive land war, I'd join. I wouldn't run for Canada like Gear Slut probably would.

Again, I stress, turn a deaf ear to the doves, or, better yet, put them on a plane and send them to Bin Laden to try to solve this diplomatically.”

“BTW - I'm sure most of you know the story of the HEROS on the flight that crashed near Pittsburgh. Note how those brave men and women didn't use the diplomacy card, and went straight to violence to achieve their goal.

That story sent chills up my spine.”

“spock, previously teddy, you are the most arrogant poster on this site.

so, what was your point, a$$hole?”

“Spock is a coward and a traitor. If you don't like it here, go live in Afghanistan a$$hole.”

“BTW - Leonard Nimoy wants his name back, ya pointy eared b!tch”