World Tade Center

“Good info. Ped, it's becoming hard to keep track of all these organizations that we need to bomb.”

“Reports of high school kids in Cleveland cheering when the planes crashed into the trade centers. Also reports of a doctor and several patients in a local Cleveland hospital cheering the tragedy as well. They were all Middle Eastern people.”

“Thanks, ped. Nice clarifications. I feel really good about the collaboration here. It helps to calm me down.”

“From a CNN.com story on world reaction to the attacks:

"As the scale of the U.S. attacks sank deeper, even old enemies like Syria, Cuba, Libya, Iran -- with Iraq the exception -- stood by the U.S."

Very interesting who is hanging out on the limb.

Britain, Australia and Japan are the three top non-U.S. victims of the attacks, each losing/missing 100 or more citizens at current counts. Australia is on the verge of invoking its defense treaty with the U.S, as NATO has, and declaring it an attack on Australia via an ally.”

“I saw a very interesting interview with an author last night (sorry I forgot her name) who feels that Iraq is the ghost in the machine on this one. She believes bin Laden is merely a front for Iraq and has been set up to divert our fire.

If bin Laden is as naive and isolated as 'The Nation' article kleetn posted would suggest, this only leads credence to her theory.”

“I've read that somewhere too Violin, it makes total sense. Maybe we can be rid of Saddam after all!”

“There are two different Mossads here.

The first is the Isreali secret service.

The second is General Mossad who is the highest ranking military offical from the former government of Afganistan. He has been fighting the Taliban for years.

The Taliban was formed in Pakistan not Afghanistan and was carried over the border in an attempt to create a Pakistani client state (read-puppet regieme.)

The Pakistani Government has had a great deal of interest in maintaining the Taliban and uses them to train "mercenaries" to fight with India over the Kashmir region of India. A conflict that is killing about 10,000 people a MONTH.

Sources? I work with many Indians and one of my Freinds is a lady who escaped during the Taliban takeover of Afghanistan.
Also check out the www.hindustantimes.com good info there.”

“Violin - Couldn't agree more. This has Saddam written all over it. I believe this will come out, as well. Hussein's going to Hell SOON, albeit with a lot of blood on his hands.”

“Thanks for the clarification on General Mossad hpm.

The nature of the Taliban is more controversial and that sounds like the pro-Indian anti-Pakistani version (which, admittedly, could be true for all I know).

Thanks also to you arclite... I appreciate the constructive discussion. We don't all have to agree, but its good when when can collaborate in talking about something like this.”

“Violin, I saw that interview, too. If her theory is correct and we establish Iraqi involvement, I don't believe Colin Powell will be able to keep his Pentagon bretheren from going all the way to Bagdhad this time around. But let's hope that the military finds an appropriate way to take care of Saddam that doesn't make the Iraqi people take their hate even deeper, if they do truly hate us.”

“It's gonna get ugly, and big.
We no longer have a choice.”

“We are all learning so much we never though we would know about terrorists. There seem to be pockets of them in many countries.

I'm happy to see that Bush is going after these pockets of terrorists, and not just bombing Palestine & Afghanastan, and leaving these other groups to fester.”

“I'm sure the Iraqis aren't very fond of the US, but I'm not sure anything can be done about it short of tearing their system down to the ground and then rebuilding, as was done at the end of WWII in Germany and Japan. Even in those countries, I'd bet there were lots of people in the years following the war that pretty much despised the US and her allies for the resounding defeat that they had been dealt. However, they were also reminded on a daily level of the futility of restarting a war of agression with the enormous nation that is the United States. Eventually, Japan, Germany and the US have become so interdependent in our economies that peaceful alliance is now the only option left for relations between these respective countries.

Here's a thought - no two democracies have ever waged war on each other. Why? It's bad for business. As weird as it sounds, Iraq may be an ALLY of the US some day when this is all over...”

“I'm sure you have heard that 5 firemen have been rescued, and the rescuers are hearing tapping sounds from the debris, and are trying to free these people as the WTC is still continuing to tumbe.”

“breaking news: the black box has been found from the PA crash.”

“I want to echo the thanks to those who are sharing information and asking questions. We are all learning alot.

To the posters who are calling those expressing a different point of view from their own "traitor", shame on you! Where did I hear this: "American citizenship is an advanced degree in democracy because you have to be willing to support a person's right to express his/her opinion no matter how offensive you find the content." Maybe I'm falling into the same trap by scolding you, but I'll bet our enemies would relish the thought of bickering Americans.”

“I hope the blackbox helps. But really, if the hijackers could fly those planes and turn off the transponders then they can diable the blackbox. Lets hope they forgot...

I agree with Lee about the full term commitment to war on terrorists. We need to declare war that will only stall when we have no terrorists or their supporting countries to deal with. As soon as our intelligence learns of another threat then the ongoing war continues.

I have also felt the same cynicism that Lee has expressed. I guess it comes from so many years of no response or just mixed ones. It is too bad that some have not learned from this long tried course of action. I hope that Forrest is right about the cynicism.

One other thing I must say. And this has me a little bit pissed off: This idea that it serves us right because of our politics around the world. I know as well as anyone that the US has done some rotten things in the world. I won't deny it. So has every country that has had the opportunity. In those countries without the opportunity factions inside did just as bad things to the less fortunate. This is a negative part of human nature. No big surprise there. I resent that some will grab hold to this arguement and throw it at us like we don't already know it.

Besides, many of the supposed negative things in history might have made perfect sense or been unavoidable to those who were there at the time. I think it is wrong to always judge events in the past with our level of development and our hindsight into history. Its not fair to the ancesors.

Despite the bad things the US has done, and the "alleged" bad things that we have done, it is still true that we have built and saved much of this world from poverty and hardship. We have been the beacon of, and disseminator of freedom and democracy for over 200 years. The entire world benefits from the fruits of our labor. Sure, there is some misery out there because of us too. But more people in this world look to us for safety and prosperity than hate us.

The Arabs hate us for having a military presence in the middle east. No, some arabs hate us for it. Others love us and are begging us to stay. Remember Kuwait after the Gulf War? They hate us for supporting Israel. Jews have been abused and kicked all over the globe for a couple thousand years. Some hate us for helping to keep them safe? That is their problem. I'm glad that I live in a country that will defend the oppressed and those in danger. Oh sure, we are looking out for our own interest in these matters as well. But that doesn't undo the benefits to those who have received them.

I guess the question as to whether we are the world bad guy depends on your perspective. Do you identify with those that hate us or with those that love us. It will paint the picture in which you see us.

One last thing...Even if we were the global bad guy responsible for everything bad, they attacked our soil and killed innocents. Deserving or not we must do whatever it takes to reduce the chances of it happening again. And that only means major sustained action.

We've seen the outcomes of lesser action.”

“The following is the perspective of an Afghan in America, Tamim Ansary

I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to
the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that
this would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do
with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral
damage. What else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit
discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done."

And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I
am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years
I've never lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell
anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is
no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the
atrocity in New York. I agree that something must be done about
those monsters.

But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even
the government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant
psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a
political criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis.
When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the
people of Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps."
It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this
atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They
would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and
clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their
country.

Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban?
The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated,
suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there
are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no
economy, no food. There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has
been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered
with land mines, the farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These
are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown
the Taliban.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone
Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it
already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level
their houses? Don. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done.
Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut
them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already
did all that.

New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at
least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the
Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip
away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled
orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs.
But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike
against the criminals who did this horrific thing. Actually it would
only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again
the people they've been raping all this time

So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak
with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go
in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly
to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the
belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any
moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out
of the sand. What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And
not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through
Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that
folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go
through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of
Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just
stand by? You see where I'm going. We're flirting with a world war
between Islam and the West.

And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he
wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements.
It's all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west.
It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world
into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west
wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with
nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of
view. He's probably wrong, in the end the west would win, whatever
that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would
die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that? Bin
Laden does. Anyone else?

Tamim Ansary
”

“Sorry about the formatting problems.”

“Sobering, but I fear close to the truth.”

“Thanks, Hobbit. I really appreciated reading that letter. It gives me even more to think about.”

“Perhaps the best thing posted here yet. Thanks Hobbit.”