Sky High Gasoline

“Oh yes, the demand will show up on charts when people stop going on any vacations and convince their bosses that they can telecommute for work. There is room to work, we just haven't hit that point yet. The equilibrium will be when everyone is using exactly how much fuel they need to survive.

But long before then other alternatives will start to be used widely. People will buy up all the wood stoves to heat their houses over the winter, they'll convert to solar heat for hot water and/or home heating. The list goes on.

Humans adapt (unlike other creatures), life goes on. But only after much suffering in between.”

“Interesting analysis, Mutt. I have been hearing reports on NPR that supply is in excess of demand, which raised the possibility of speculation based on largely irrelevant hypotheses.

I don't know what would curb consumption other that high price. High prices in the past created demand for compact, fuel efficient cars. That does not yet seem to be happening this go-round. As for mass transit, high fares combined with service breakdowns scare a lot of people away.

The full effect of high gas prices goes beyond the family car. It drives up the cost of food and consumer goods that have to be hauled by truck (or diesel train).”

“From what I saw on the news people are making changes with their driving habits. Carpooling, replacing gas guzzling vehicles etc. Larger vehicles are getting harder to sell and people aren't getting much for them on trade in from what I've been reading on some car forums. Also, people are cutting back on purchasing since they have less money to spend after increased fuel costs.

If heating costs go up like they project this winter it will be even worse. Older people are already pinched between drug prices, health care costs, etc. Every heating season the line goes out the door at the county building with people looking for heating assistance. This year it probably be longer.
last edited: 8/23/05 6:30:53 AM”

“Natural gas is an issue, also. Keyspan gave me the bad news yesterday. My balanced billing has gone up 42% in one fell swoop. My monthly has gone from $247 to $359. Ouch!”

“Natural gas isn't such an issue in my house. I just fan the blankets for a few minutes.



Hi Tree! :) Happy Tuesday!”

“Ha! Like farting in the bathtub to make a homemade jacuzzi? :)

Yeah, happy Tuesday to you, too, Nigal!”

“[bloop! bloop!] Sniff, sniff. You can smell it! You can smell it!”

“just heard on the news last night that when adjusted for inflation gas was actually more expensive in the early 80's...gas is just like every thing else, it goes up over time...good alternatives have already been developed, it will just take some time for them to gradually shift over but it will happen”

“timecline - I've been saying this the whole time.

These whiners don't want to hear it. They'd rather have something to complain about.”

“Treebeard - I have a propane furnace for the 1st floor of my place (heat pump for 2nd floor). I made an effort to use my wood stove for 95% of my heat last winter and ended up only spending about $200 on gas all winter. Most of that came from heating from mid-March through April when I ran out of wood.

Have you looked into a wood stove? The new catalytic converter models achieve 70%+ efficiency and produce little ash. The 4 cord of wood I burned last year produced an ash pile that wouldn't fill up a kitchen-sized trash can.”

“Woodstoves are good under 2 conditions:

1) You don't live in the city and you live near a forest, meaning that wood is easy to come by. Wood is not the most efficient heat source, but if you live in the woods, it's so common that even with it's inefficiencies, it's cheaper.

2) No climate control, so you'd have to get up every so often to put a log on the fire or risk waking up to a chilly surprise.


The heat in my apt is evidently included in the rent. It'll be interesting to see how it plays itself out, as it will be my first winter in this place...”

“http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/08/23/chavez.gasoline.reut/index.html

Affordable gas and medical care for the poor in America. Good reason to kill the guy.”

“Not true, PhantomSoul. You can have wood delivered to you for a fair price around here. Or you can pick it up far cheaper. I can buy it, presectioned, from a local tree trimmer for $25 a cord. So the 4 cord I need for a winter costs me $100, plus the labor getting it back to my place and splitting it, then stacking it.

As for the climate control - I stoke my stove right before I go to bed and when I get up the next morning there are still coals to start it up again. The temps in the house drop from the mid 70's to the mid 60's the next morning. This is with temps outside in the mid 20's. Still quite comfortable - and I like to have it cooler at night anyway.”

“Wow Tech, that's some cheap wood. Around here it's $100 a face cord. We always had luck finding it for free but had to split and stack it.
I miss our woodstove sometimes but it was dirty and bad for the environment (we didn't have a catalitic (sp?) converter on ours). It did keep the house toasty warm but was alot of work.”

“Tech, I lived that way when I was in Pa. It was awesome. Don't get me wrong. I would have to investigate several things:

1) first, the landlady would have to approve. that's first and foremost.

2) I would have to check NYC ordinances about wood burning, which I don't think would be a problem. Lots of people have fireplaces. But I would be concerned about building codes and whether I could afford something like this now, especially with the financially disastrous summer we are trying to wade out of.

3) the cost of wood here would probably be huge compared to most other places, but I am not drawing any conclusions about that prematurely.

Thanks for the suggestion. It's worth looking into, whether or not it is possible...
last edited: 8/24/05 12:58:44 PM”

“just heard on the news last night that when adjusted for inflation gas was actually more expensive in the early 80's...gas is just like every thing else, it goes up over time...

tc, take into account the cumulative cost of this. Compare a few months, even adjusted for inflation, to a situation like we have now, where the effects will be felt for a long time and this will bite worse than it did back then.

Of course, I'm still a whiner in some people's minds. c'est la vie! Ask me if I give a sh-t!”

“You can always use a thormostat in combination with the wood stove, just maybe set it a few degrees below where the wood stove kicks in”

“Sassafras - check out your local tree trimmer services and local cities. Note that the $25 is u-haul, u-split, u-season. Delivered, mixed-hardwood, seasoned is about $125-150 per cord around here. Still a whole lot cheaper than a $1000 propane heating bill for a whole winter.

Treebeard - I'm sure you're allowed to burn - but if and only if you use a modern catalytic model. EPA regs that came out in the late 80's mandate their use. My smoke output is almost (sometimes completely) invisible with the caty engaged. I can tell its time to boil it (vinegar/water mixture) when I can see the smoke.

And there's nothing like the warmth of that fire! Or the smell.”

“I'm gonna start riding my goat to the trail head.”

“Absolutely, Tech. I'd do this in a heartbeat, if I could. I am going to ask her about it and see if i can afford it. I don't think she will want the expense on her, though...”

“We don't have the stove anymore Tech. Those prices were from a tree company. And note that they were for a face cord too, not a full cord. Things just cost different amounts in different areas of the country.

I have noticed a ton of offers of free firewood on Freecycle.org.”

“Y2 - I do that, too. I set my furnace thermostat to about 66F, so if the wood dies a little early it won't get too cold. Usually doesn't kick in overnight. I'll restoke the stove in the morning and it will hold the temp above 66 until mid-afternoon. Usually it kicks in around 3, I get home around 4. So it only "runs" for about an hour a day - and then it only really runs for about 10 minutes.

I think my next big job is going to be extra insulation in the attic and in my crawl space.”

“Sassafras - thanks for the reminder. I still haven't signed up for that. Time to hit it!”

“I have a set of Gas Logs in my fireplace.
Last winter, they supplied most of the heat in my house.
I get my 120 gal propane tank filled at the begining of the cool winter and that will last me till spring.
I use my central heat and air to move the heat around if needed.”

“I'm afraid I am going to be stuck paying this. The alternatives don't appear to be possible. Oh well.”

“The trouble Treebeard would have would be the same as we have in DC. You get seriously ripped off on the cost of firewood. The only way to do it would be to rent a sizable truck for the day and head out of the city a few times and stock up with a few chords. I think you're looking at $150 a chord to have it brought to you in DC, prolly more in NYC.”

“although once you factor in the cost of driving the truck out to the Catskills or something, then you're not gonna be saving much.”

“Sounds like a losing proposition, if that's what it would cost, Y2. Guess I'm screwed here. Damn, 42% raise at the drop of a hat is ridiculous.

I figured that my raise for this year amounts to less than the amount of extra money I will be putting into natural gaas alone! How encouraging that is...”

“if you can find a good cheap source fairly locally TB then it's worth doing, a weekend truck rental providing heat for much of the winter wouldn't be bad.

It's been a really bad summer energy-wise, with high temps and record demand pushing up the costs. If we get a cold winter, then it's gonna remain expensive too, virtually all the winter natural gas is running at over $10/mmBtu, which is v expensive. It's also rising by the day.”

“Keyspan is re-evaluating in March. Until then, I am at 359 dollars a month.”

“You gotta be able to do better than that, knot some sweaters mebbe, invest in down for all the family”

“Problem is, it's a 24/7 thing. I'm taking care of my 88 year old mother, too. She's there all day. The whole house gets heated at once because there's only one thermostat. It's a tough situation. Not much room for leeway here...”

“The latest twist is that people are stealing gas. Drive offs are on the rise and one gas station owner was run over by a motorist trying to flee the scene. Some stations have resorted to pay before you pump.”

“Treebeard - how 'bout getting on freecycle and posting a wanted add for the stove? If you can get it free, you are home-free! (pun intended) My wife's uncle is dismantling one of his stoves this fall to put in a new one. Its been over-fired a few times so its warped in places and has a spot inside that needs a metal plate welded on it. If you can handle those issues I'm sure you can have it. I was going to take the good spare parts for my stove - I have the same exact model. Heats my 2800 sq. ft. house very nicely. Might be more trouble than its worth for you, though. If you can find a good free one in your area, bingo.

And then even if you only use wood part-time, that's still part-time you aren't using your gas.”

“Holey smokes - $100 a face cord?
Up here in mid-Michigan it's $40 or $45 a face cord, oak or maple, split & dumped.

Even better, I have a workaholic teenager who likes to play with a chainsaw and farmer neighbors who don't like the trees of the hedgerows f'ing up the windshield wipers of their tractors...
He cut, split, & stacked 12 cords last fall.

We've had a woodstove for 20+ years. It's saved us a ton of money, and everyone loves the heat and ambience. I bought a new furnace 2 years ago, but there were many years that I never even lit the pilot on the old furnace. The woodstove heats our 100 yr old farmhouse very nicely.
I may have to replace both the stove and chimney soon, prolly for around 2k, but it's well worth it. The old one will go out into the garage.”

“Good idea once again, Tech. I will have to wait until I can talk to the landlord before anything. If she axes the idea, it's all moot...”

“What kind of stove do you reccomend? I'm in the market for an insert.”

“Hawaii Caps Oil Prices
Thursday, August 25, 2005
(off Fox News)


HONOLULU — Hawaii will begin enforcing a cap on the wholesale price of gasoline next week, hoping to curb the sting of the nation's highest gas costs.

The limit would be the first time a state has capped the price of gasoline — a move critics warn could lead to supply shortages.

But many Hawaii residents are just looking for some relief from soaring costs.

"The gas prices that are continuing to go up — how am I supposed to afford it?" Nathan Slenk, a 25-year-old student at Kapiolani Community College, said as he pumped regular unleaded gas into his black sedan for $2.79 a gallon in Honolulu.

On Wednesday, the average retail price of regular unleaded in Honolulu was at a record $2.761, some 15 cents above the nationwide average. Prices on Maui have already topped $3 a gallon this week. Statewide, prices average $2.84, the highest in the nation, according to AAA's Web site.

The state Public Utilities Commission said the initial price ceiling is due to take effect Sept. 1. Wholesalers may not charge more than about $2.74 including taxes in Honolulu for a gallon of regular unleaded. The commission set separate price caps for other islands.

If retailers keep their usual 12-cent-per-gallon markup, prices for regular unleaded in Honolulu could in theory rise to about $2.86 a gallon.

The ceilings will be in effect through Sept. 4. The following week, the commission will announce a new set of caps.

The 2004 law passed by the Legislature that authorized the caps was intended to force Hawaii's two refiners, Chevron Corp. and Tesoro Corp., to set their wholesale prices closer to mainland rates. Proponents of the law said the refiners were taking advantage of the small, isolated market to charge exorbitant prices.

Chevron said in a statement Wednesday it believes the law "is flawed and not in the best interest of the state," The Wall Street Journal reported on its Web site. Tesoro said its Hawaii operation believes any cap "will only serve to distort market forces and will result in long-term negative impacts to the citizens and the economy of Hawaii."

The oil companies also have said the state should cut back on Hawaii's excessive regulations to reduce prices rather than setting price caps.

Chevron and Tesoro did not return calls by The Associated Press Wednesday seeking comment. Chevron owns a 54,000 barrel-a-day refinery in Hawaii and Tesoro has a 95,000 barrel-a-day refinery.

Fereidun Fesharaki, an energy expert with the East-West Center in Honolulu, said the caps were a futile attempt to hold down oil prices as they rose around the globe.

"This kind of thing it just gives us a bad name, frightens people from investing — it may make one of the refineries shut down and leave Hawaii," Fesharaki said. "It reduces competition and does all harm but doesn't gain us anything."

Direct comparisons between the gas cap and current wholesale prices are not possible because the oil companies do not release wholesale price data.

The caps are based on a baseline price calculated from the five-day average of spot rates from three mainland markets: Los Angeles, New York harbor and the U.S. Gulf Coast.

The commission then adds on allowances for the cost of shipping to the state and for transporting gasoline from Oahu to more remote and less populated islands.

For example, under next week's cap wholesalers may not charge more than $2.3058 — about $2.86 including tax — for a gallon of regular unleaded gas in Hilo on the Big Island. Allowing for a retailer's markup, prices at the pump in Hilo could be close to $3 a gallon or more.

Federal, state, and county authorities each impose a fuel tax on wholesale gasoline. The state's excise tax is also imposed on gasoline at the wholesale and retail levels.

Frank Young, a member of Citizens Against Gasoline Price Gouging, said the price caps were pretty much in line with current market rates in the state.

"The purpose of the cap is so that we move with the rest of the country," he said.

Gov. Linda Lingle, who unsuccessfully sought repeal of the 2004 law, has said she worries the cap will actually increase prices and create fuel shortages. The governor has the power to suspend the price caps if she determines they would cause a major adverse impact on the economy, public order, or the health, welfare or safety of the people of Hawaii.

Crude oil prices hit a record US$68 a barrel Thursday after the United States reported a decline in gasoline stocks and China said its crude imports spiked in July. Storms brewing close to Gulf of Mexico production facilities and fears that it could hurt output also contributed to the upward march.”

“Vermont Castings has some nice schit.”

“You guys think you have it rough. Bush have to fuel up Air Force One. I wonder if they let him pay at the pump?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/24/bush.gas.guzzlers.ap/index.html”

“MarkO would know, he used to work there! That's what mine is, a VC.”

“Those Woodchucks put together a mean stove.”

“Split wood-not atoms!”

“Quick quiz for Sarge:

1) What was term that referred to the effect high gasoline prices had on our economy when they were a liitle higher in real terms than they are now?

2) What was the term for the difficult to combat economic condition those high prices helped to create?
last edited: 8/25/05 3:29:00 PM”

“Actually it was $65 a face cord or $125 for a full. I double checked.

Tree, another place to check for inexpensive stoves is with chimney sweeps. I have a friend who's one and he is asked to take them away all the time. He sells them cheap.”

“violin - Question for you:

When do you mean? Actually in real terms it was 43% higher than it is now, so when you say "a little higher", is 43% higher how much you mean, because if it is, that's hardly "a little higher". That's a LOT higher!

According to CNN money, gas prices have only risen 34% in the last year, so by your definition Violin, compared to 43%, that's a VERY LITTLE increase in price. THAT'S AWESOME!

I didn't realize until you asked that question just how "little" our prices have risen.”

“the value of SUVs is falling fast. SUV total losses are becoming difficult to settle because the market value has dropped so much since Bush let the gas prices go out of whack.
last edited: 8/25/05 5:00:44 PM”

“That's great ENS! Bush said when he campaigned that he'd work on getting more fuel efficient vehicles, and that's a great way - let the market demand it.

As SUV sales fall, smaller, more fuel efficient vehicles sell more. As consumers demand them, the companies will produce more.

This falls right in line with his promise at campaign time. It's a win-win situation for everybody. Environmentalists are happy as consumers drive less and try to use less fuel, and newer, fuel-efficient technologies begin to be pushed to the front of the production line.

I'm glad to see somebody like ENS finally take a postitive look at this and see it for what it really is.”