Palestinians cheering

“OK, SO MANY were SO PISSED to see the scenes of cheering by the Palestinians after the terrorist acts.

Sounds to me like a lot of people here would be having parades and parties and CELEBRATIONS should we level some Middle Eastern country, including all those poor people who had nothing to do with the terrorist actions. Hmmmmmm.... isn't that a bit ironic??!

I'm not saying what's right and what's wrong for retaliation, still pondering on all that. BUT... by even calling for such an action, you have done the equivalent of cheering the killing of innocent people.

Did you cheer upon hearing the U.S. goverment had killed innocent people in specific Vietnam incidents???

Hey, just think about it.”

“Thanks Liz.

While I understand, and have myself, many of the passions that have caused people here to suggest carpet bombing cities and countries . . .it is would be an unfathomable, uncivilized and barbaric act.

Clearly we should take action against a broad range of people, terrorists, cells, training camps and state structures that support them . .but the random killing of people in the name of revenge would make us . . .terrorists??”

“Some people are just plain stupid. It should be a simple, simple concept--murdering innocent people = bad.

What kind of god do they follow?”

“Liz, you are right. After Hiroshima and Nagasaki, people in the states held celebrations. The U.S. was happy to have vanquished the Japanese even at the very high cost of civilian lives. I guess it is all relative to each nation or groups perspective.”

“These recent events have brought about some serious emotion in all of us. Whether we knew someone personally or not, we all feel a sense of sorrow. I would like to add guilt, shame, and fear to my feelings. My Fathers side of the family is Palestinian, although my grandmother was born in the US. My father fought in WWII in Normandy and has overcome more obstacles in life than most of you could imagine.

My guilt come from the images we have all seen on the TV, of Palestinians dancing in the streets, firing weapons and giving candy to kids in celebration of this tragic event. But I think it?s important to realize that not all, or even half of the population feels this way, and that only a small group of militants who get on the news hate American, and in some ways I can understand why since American has supported Israel in oppressing them. And so follows my sense of shame. I am ashamed that these people of whom I am distantly related to somehow justify the killing of innocent people. I can?t imagine a God that could find this honorable.
My sense of fear comes from the recent events in Israel and Israel proposal that the US should follow suit in its attempt to eradicate terrorism. Another words that the US should practice racial profiling in an attempt to stave off terrorist activity. This frightens me very much. I can see visions of being profiled because of my last name. Or my family being profiled and their rights being taken away. Just the idea of this makes me think how did this all start? Did the chicken come before the egg? Did the terrorism start because of injustice to an oppressed people who had no other means at fighting back? If the US follows Israel?s example, the Terrorists will follow the example of the PLO. Do you see an end to the violence in Israel? I don?t! There must be another alternative to war. ”

“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21262-2001Sep12.html

I also read this today, and it shows what can and will happen if people begin to think this is the answer. We will read about the foolishness of anti-Islamic mobs in years to come.

BRISBANE, Australia ?? A school bus carrying Muslim children was stoned and vandals tried to set fire to a Lebanese church in apparent acts of retaliation for terrorist attacks in the United States, officials said Thursday.

Queensland state Islamic Council chairman Sultan Deen said stones and bottles damaged the side of the bus Wednesday in the northeastern city of Brisbane. Nobody was injured.
"The children are quite shaken up," Deen said.”

“you're 28, and your FATHER was at normany?

holy cow!”

“I am 26 and he is 74!”

“Tarpy, thanks for sharing that with all of us, it must be very painful. I remember my grandfather talking about his embarrassment of Germans during WWII (he and 6 of his brothers fought in WWII - 2 didn't come back) The simple fact is Tarpy, that you are and American, my best freind (who is 1/2 Lebanese) is American.

What do you suggest we do, when the perpotarors of this act lived and trained in the US to inflict their terror? What forms of punishment can we bring to a people whose religious leaders tell them that killing Americans praises Allah? What can we do, diplomatically, that we haven't tried already, and failed?”

“Tarpy that was well said. You can be suprisingly lucid when you want to.”

“I don't have an answer, but we can deduce an answer by eliminating practices that haven't worked in the past.

If we bomb a Muslim country, we will have bombs going off in public areas around the US. I think diplomacy is worth a try.”

“been there, done that.”

“Diplomacy huh? How bout' we unleash OJ on them?”

“Us, and them
And after all we're only ordinary men.
Me, and you.
God only knows it's not what we would choose to do.
Forward he cried from the rear
and the front rank died.
And the general sat and the lines on the map
moved from side to side.

Black and blue
And who knows which is which and who is who
Up and down
But in the end it's only round and round
Haven't you heard it's a battle of words
The poster bearer cried
Listen son, said the man with the gun
There's room for you inside


"I mean, they're not gunna kill ya, so if you give 'em a quick short,
sharp, shock, they won't do it again. Dig it?
I mean he get off lightly, 'cos I would've given him a
Thrashing - I only hit him once!
It was only a difference of opinion,
But really...I mean good manners
don't cost nothing do they, eh?"


Down and out
It can't be helped but there's a lot of it about
With, without
And who'll deny it's what the fighting's all about?
Out of the way, it's a busy day
I've got things on my mind
For the want of the price of tea and a slice
The old man died

--"Us and Them," Pink Floyd”

“if you STAND against America, you WILL FALL against America!”

“Sorry rad but I think that vietnam proved that statement wrong.

Tarp Rat - Hooray, another person with brains!”

“I have mellowed out a bunch in the last two days. My acute anger has subsided. I now feel that we can take our time to be sure what we are doing is right before we retaliate.

I felt the Palestinians dancing in the streets were foolish. They do not know how much sympathy they have had in the US. They did themselves a disservice by alienating many folks that were understanding of their plight.”

“gear slut, they weren't standing against us. we were standing against them.”

“http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=digest&contentId=A33603-2001Aug19

Read this and maybe you will understand that they can't get on the internet and read about the so called US support!”

“It's all media spin. Some producer says go out and get me a picture of Palestinians dancing in the streets and that's what they do. However, the camera crew passes Palestinians in mourning for the incident all over on the way to capture the few morons dancing.”

“I agree!”

“BTW, Tarp, give your dad a handshake and tell him thanks. I have yet to speak with my father about this. He ducked kamikazees in the 3rd Fleet's Pacific campaign and witnessed up close the effect of suicide planes. We don't have much time left with these men; let's make the most of it.”

“Diplomacy?

Yeah, liked that's worked before.

These people and the governments that support them aren't concerned about collateral damage when they kill our civilians. Why should we care about theirs. Weren't the people killed in the WTC considered innocents as well?”

“Because we're better than them?”

“So to prove that we're better than them, we continue to let our people get killed?

Hell, we already know that we're better than them. Now it's time to exterminate them.”

“Tarp Rat-
Yer ole man's a stud!
In more ways than one!

Regardless of how many of those morons are dancing the facts do not change.

America has supported Isreal in their oppression of the Palestinians.
They will not settle down until they get justice.

These problems must all be addressed honestly and fairly.

Simply throwing bombs at Osama bin Laden is not even a half-measure.
Bombing is also VERY expensive.
Are you tax-wackos ready to give up your tax-cut?

Diplomacy...."been there, done that"....
We have NOT been there or done that!
Its been more of the usual American arrogance and disrespect for other peoples of this world.
While terrorist attacks ARE WRONG its our lame-azz "leaders" who are ultimately responsible for this sh!t coming over here to haunt U.S.”

“I am so very conflicted by all of this. I want peace, but I seethe with anger at the sheer audacity of the bastards who committed these acts. Showing compassion feels so much better than hating. Yet someone needs to be held responsible and at times I want to see them all feel what we are feeling. Is the remedy for suffering to inflict more suffering?

Like I said, I'm conflicted...and it bothers the hell outta me. :o/”

“The problem with holding "someone" responsible for this or any other crime is that you better be sure its the correct someone.

ei: There are how many innocent people on death row?”

“Don't they all claim to be innocent?”

“Thanks Tarp. That was really thoughtful.

As has been shown many places and many times, indiscriminate killing of innocent civilians or oppressing populations only yields people who are driven insane by hatred and willing to do anything for revenge.

I doubt if the people who are dancing in the streets have our education or access to books and other media so they are able to be mislead by those with evil hearts.

Creating a new generation of terrorists will not help.

Let us punish those responsible and show mercy on those who only live near them but don't condone their actions.

The level of bloodshed may not be as high as what we experienced Tuesday, but I would hope that America has a greater sense of justice than some other cultures. If not, God help us.”

“Just a reminder; When Regan bombed Kadafi (which I was against) terrorism stopped for a number of years.
I want peace, but sometimes you need to kick the bully in the balls.”

“The Palestinians have been victims of Israel's land grab. Who can blame the Palestinian's for celebrating a blow against Israel's ally? The Israelies steal land from the Palestinians the way America took land from the Indians.

It is the Islamic Fundamentalists that seek the destruction of the United States. Those wacko's are everywhere. They are our enemy.”

“As I mentioned on another thread, 99.99% of people are good. It's the few fanatics that ruin it for everyone. Think with a clear, calm head.”

“My dad knows much more about suicide aircraft than he cares to know.

While aboard the USS LCS(L)75 - - he and his shipmates were stationed at various picket staions encompassing the shipping lanes into Okinawa. Their objective was to be the first line of defense against suicide planes.

My dad has only recently began talking about it, which prompted me to do a little internet research.

It must have been pure Hell...”

“oops...”

“There are some real way-out Christian FUNdamentalists who seek the destruction of the United States by means of violence.

They seem to have delusions about a "one world government" and "new world order".
They go on about Jews and Mud People, etc.
They, like the Muslim Fundies, live in a small world inside their own heads where they are doing "god's work".”

“There are alot of wacko's out there Tom.”

“Tom T., I agree with you. Help!”

“Gojo, I know we found this connection a while back in a discussion of the military, but it is something to think of our two dads on separate ships out on that Okinawa picket line. I'm sure they had hoped to never have to think about such tactics ever again being part of their lives.”

“Most Palestinians did not celebrate. While most of them are enraged at US policy, they know better.

As to why some of them are moved to hate there are many reasons, but c9onsider this:

Ariel Sharon, now the guy in charge in Israel was the general in charge of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. As part of a US brokered deal to minimize the bloodshed in Beirut, while still supporting the Israeli goal of getting the PLO out of Lebanon - the PLO fighters agreed to leave the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps and take all their weapons. In turn, the safety of the remaining refugees (almost all women, children and elderly) was to be guaranteed. After the assassination of the Lebanese president (a Christian), Sharon - who was in control of Beirut and who had the refugee camps surrounded - allowed (apparently encouraged and aided)revenge seeking militia members to rampage through the refugee camps in a bloody massacre of un-armed civilians. The US indicated mild displeasure. Many people beleive that Sharon was fully supportive of the massacres. Even an official Israeli investigation found Sharon to be at least partly responsible for the massacre and declared him to be unfit for public office.

Sharon's handling of the Palestinian crisis has been hamfisted and brutal.. and he has used US weapons to blow up Palestinian police stations and rain terror on Palestinian institutions without noticeable complaint from the US.

There are plenty of legitimate reasons for Palesinian anger. But only the depraved and hateful among them would cheer what hapened Tuesday if they were informed about the real details.

I do believe that were the more blood thirsty among TT posters in the shoes of the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, that they would have been among the minority who cheered, passed out candy, and hoped that more American blood would spill.”

“Ya know ped, we are all, unfortunately, in their shoes now.”

“I never thought I would be slack-jawed here. Tarp Rat, that was one of the most lucid discourses I've heard about this horror.

Tough questions and mixed emotions. I hope that if anything good comes from this, it is increased empathy and decreased ignorance about other cultures and the effects our policies have on them.

The dehumanizing effects of this horror scare me too.”

“Tarpy... thanks for thoughtful posts.”

“WOW,
It seems that some of you are becoming sappy bleeding hearts!
What's all this talk of "empathy"?
Where's all that Chicken-Hawk bluster?

For those of you who don't know, a Chicken-Hawk is a draft-dodger like Newt Gingrich or Pat Buchanan who talks big about fighting as long as someone else does it.”

“From USA Today:

Palestinian Cabinet Secretary Ahmed Abdel Rahman used tougher measures to avoid an international backlash in response to apparent Palestinian
jubilation. Abdel Rahman called international news agencies and said the safety of their staff could not be guaranteed unless they withdrew the embarrassing footage of Palestinian police firing joyfully in the air.
Such threats appeared to succeed in suppressing immediate release of video showing large street celebrations in Ramallah, Bethlehem and other West Bank towns.

Sounds like "spin control", albeit with a hammer!”

“Seems like they could have staged a demonstration in support of the USofA instead.”

“i don't know why the palestinians are celebrating. Israel is the big winner in all of this. Their policy of assassination was globally condemned, and they were in danger of losing a great deal of U.S. support. Now no one is going to fault them for aggressively going after the terrorist threat. which is good, in my opinion”

“FUCK the palestinians, I say blow them to sh1t”

“Ironically, this could be the end of the second Intifada. Sharon will now have a free hand to be as brutal as he wants in putting down the uprising. As one Palestinian realist said, after this disaster "who is going to care about 100 dead Palestinians."

Those who did celebrate were fools. The terrorism was a disaster for their cause. Anbd the celbration only compounded it.”