In Praise Of ALL Firefighters

“Last night 20/20 had a good segment on all of this. I found myself getting a little emotional watching it which then reminded me of this thread which then pissed me off at MarkO and hikerboy for being such pricks about 9 guys who, through no fault of their own, died.

Euro - 20/20 showed photos of the 9 and gave their names. I imagine you could find the Charleston newspaper and get the names and more info about what actually happened. Now that this is a day and a half old more info is probably avaialble.”

“Hey Euro...I'm pretty sure the city of Charleston has a career department which might be supplemented by volunteers from surrounding towns when mutual aid is requested. Volunteer firefighters do the same job as career firefighters however they volunteer for smaller communities that can't afford or refuse to pay for a career department.”

““Raise a glass to the common foot soldier.

Those who can, do.
Those who can't, supervise.

MarkO
10:12:04 AM
6/19/07

Geez Dayhiker, what's your beef?

Being a former enlisted infantryman I have a love and respect for the guys who are at the "tip of the spear", those nine who perished were just that.

I appologize for what was a dig at the officers who send good men to their deaths.”

“DING....Euro 80% of the firefighters in the US are Volunteers. It does not matter what the work you do it.

Charleston is a fully paid department, although I notice today that one of the Firefighters also volunteered for an outlying department.

At least in my area Volunteers are something akin to "Reserves" same training, same qualifications etc. The stigma of "YAYHOO volunteers" is slowly being eliminated even in the deep south. In Georgia to be eligible for the State Retirement you have to meet all the qualifications of the State Certification.

Looks like(to me) that the fire got away from them. I am betting it was above the drop ceiling. Probably had built up some major heat (most likely from materials in the attic spaces) and when the popped the ceiling it backdrafted on them.


Mix that with the filler in the couches..and you have a lethal mix. Don't forget that the Poly fill for a lot of the stuff in couches today was the same stuff John Orr liked to use as his main fuel in the fires he set.”

“Maybe you didn't get my comparison of front line firefighters to "common foot soldiers".

The use of the word "common" was in no way intended to be a negative.”

“Thanks for the link XL.....Those pic tell a lot about what happened but unfortunately the only ones that know for sure will never be able to tell us. I'm curious as to how far into the incident the roof came in...judging by the type of building, I'm betting they have steel roof truss construction....and we all know the saying...never trust a truss. The really emotional part of those pics are the two and a half inch handlines going in the front door, knowing there are guys on the end of those lines. The initial pictures show an incident that looks manageable but obviously spiraled out of control quickly. The city of Charleston lost some good men that day.”

“Mark, I stand corrected. I was remembering hikerboy and lumped you in there. I'm wrong on this and apologize. I lumped you in there because you and XL were bickering I guess and that was wrong. Again, I truly screwed that one up.

I took common in the correct tense.”

“OK, I did make an inappropriate "joke" further down about how this thread might as well be FUEGO since it is about fire.

At any rate, this news floored me when I heard it and made me think of an entire squad being cuaght in an ambush with no way out except to die.

And I really should stop replying to my buddy XL.”

“I need to reread stuff before I stick my stick my foot in my mouth. I'm good at sticking feet in mouth. I appreciate the way you replied. You could've really crawled my butt about it.”

“Acutally I understand Marky's comment. I look at it like I do the SOldier and the GUVM'nt politician directing them.

At a fire scene you have the following Ranks.

Firefighter -the worker ant
Engineer - drives/pumps the truck...and at times worker ant (may also have the title Sgt)
Lieutenant - He is the Officer in a truck or Engine
Captain- more than not the senior officer in a Company (station or multiple trucks) and the The

CHIEFS - there are a slew of them from Battalion to the BIG Chief.

the fire service unfortunatly cannot have the separation of ranks. In most departments I have worked with everyone has to be able to fight fire. Chiefs may get a break for being ...well Chiefs. But from Captain down you do it all.

I saw Marko's comment as referencing a shot at those of us in investigations or what not. Sorry MARKY MARK....Last Saturday morning I was working as a Captain on a truck fighting a 4000 sqft structure fire.”

“Here's another take on that comment....I wouldn't want to be a chief, too stressful, way too much responsibility and although they don't bake in a fire, they take all the heat from the public. Its not a job I envy. I'd much rather be on the end of the hoseline and being responsible for just me and the guy I'm with. Trust me, most firefighters I know and work with would much rather be going in than standing outside watching. Thats just how we are!”

“Str...until you have had to send the men inside and stood there praying to God you got it right...you do not know stress...(I agree).

The first major incident I worked as a Captain (assigned to Operations) drive me bananas. You are sending kids who you remember as 8 year old brats bothering you at the station ...now 19 year old firefighters going inside.....in to the structure and praying you get the decision right.”

“Though all I ever did was play at combat, I never wanted to be anywhere but shootin', movin' and communicatin'.

For all the jivin' about officers, we had some great officers who were usually fine athletes as well.
One of my favorite Company Commanders was a downhill racer for the U.S. Army Ski Team and another had been an A Team leader for S.F.

I suppose the M-60 was something like a hoseline with me and my A-gunner rockin' and rollin'.
That was plenty of responsibility for me.”

“Marko the real difference is that in the fire you are HOT, it burns you through your gear, you cannot see, you cannot hear (airpack noise, radio chatter, fire) you are aiming at bright stuff hoping it will get dark....And due to the air supply you have a limited time in. I am sure ST has known the fun of having the face mask pull to your face becuase you weren't thinking about the low air alarm.

Years ago before they had the vibralert fasce mask they had a low air bell on the base of the pack. I got some debris in mine and was WAY in the house fighting the fire when my face mask sucked to my face...NOTHING, no air, NO NOTHING. Then you have a couple of minutes to get the F out. Not fun.”

“You are right, I have no idea what that is like.

I also have no idea what its like being a target for real return fire as a machine gunner.
My technique was to not stay in one position for very long and to go berserk draggin' the A-gunner all over the place.”

“LOL..what was the old Maxim....REMEMBER when the enemy is in range...YOU are too.

marko, not to worry, it is all stress... to tell the truth I really can't recall "what" I am thinking inside. I know you get to a point where the training kicks in...you do your job.


OH just got this in the e-mail

=Charleston, SC TV station WCBD-TV2 is holding a telethon RIGHT NOW to raise funds for the families of the firefighters who were killed in yesterday’s furniture store fire. The telethon will run from 4:45 pm until 6:30 pm (Eastern Time). The number to call to donate is: (843) 849-5420.



=A fund has been established for the fallen firefighters. Donations can be sent to: The City of Charleston Firemen's Fund, P.O. Box 304, Charleston, SC, 29402 or at ANY BankAmerica branch throughout the USA.

=We honor the lives of the Charleston Firefighters who were killed yesterday:


Fire Captain William "Billy" Hutchinson-Age: 48-Years with department: 30
Fire Captain Mike Benke-Age: 49 -Years with department: 29 years
Fire Captain Louis Mulkey -Age: 34 -Years with department: 11 1/2 years
Fire Engineer Mark Kelsey -Age: 40 Years with department: 12 1/2 years
Fire Engineer Bradford "Brad" Baity, Age: 37 -Years with department: 9
Fire Assistant Engineer Michael French-Age: 27-Years with department: 1 1/2 years
Firefighter James "Earl" Drayton-Age: 56-Years with department: 32 years
Firefighter Brandon Thompson-Age: 27-Years with department: Four years
Firefighter Melven Champaign-Age: 46-Years with department: Two years
last edited: 6/20/07 10:07:42 AM”

“A bit earlier this afternon I saw my friend was 'online' and I had a chat with him on the messenger. He actually was there and saw the roof caving in...

I could never do a job like that! Not that I wouldn't want to help. I have been in a few hairy situation, involuntary, and always managed to stay cool and keep my nerves and do what was neccessary to do, but witnessing human tradgedy on a regular basis, just like firefighters and rescue people, would traumatize me each and every time again. I can detach myself emotionally only as long as I am 'in' the critical situation, but afterwards it all comes back to haunt me. I could never do a job like that.”

“Hence the rather sick sense of humor some of us have....”

“ooh?!?...well, I guess, that does explain a few things...

:-)”

“Euro...it is hard to understand. But get up from a deep sleep, ride 3 to 5 minutes (while trying to get dressed in a space the size of a small broom closet (or seated). Get off go into a burning house looking for three family members. THe first found is a little girl 16 years old. She is most likely dead but the crews start pulling her out (I will not describe what the heat does to the human flesh but the result is not pretty). Then you crawl into a room where you find the 330lb mother wedged between the bed and a dresser. You find out later you were on the floor in the room above where the fire was raging. Each time you move the floor shifts. Your crew taking the little girl out tells you later as they went by the room all they could see was the bottom of your boot and the bottom hem of your pants through the fire.

Another crew gets there and by the time you get mother out your mask is sucked to your face ( you have been rebreathing your own breath for a 30 seconds or so). Then you find the entire family died.

Now tell me how do you deal with it....? You make jokes, you go through Critical Incident Stress Debriefing, you cry a bit and the next time there is a call you get back in the truck and go again.”

“Oh heck yeah, cops, firemen, and ER nurses have gallows humor for sure.”

“...and each time an architect wants me to design a wood beam to support masonry they go nuts because I want. It has to be steel or masonry. Yes, steel yields, but wood will drops a few thousands pounds of brick on your head.”

“strz51 - One of my moonlighting jobs is doing psychiatric triage at a general hospital. The only time I ever came close to giving anyone preferential treatment was when a fire-fighter with undiagnosed PTSD needed in-patient psych treatment. I wanted to make sure he got somewhere where he'd get quality treatment.

And Dayhiker - lets here it for gallows humor. Humor should be more than a fair weather friend, we need it most when it gets ugly.”

“Modern truss construction is to blame for a lot of deaths. Smaller dimension lumber is used instead of large timbers as in the past. this results in much faster burn through time with the resultant roof collapse.”

“Pedxing....good to know there are some people out there that appreciate what we deal with on a daily basis. Thank you and I'm sure XL would agree.

Fingerlakeshiker...you are right about the wooden trusses...and the same holds true for steel trusses. Steel expands as it gets heated and so you can have massive failure in a short amount of time. A great example of this is the WTC. So trusses as a whole are bad business for the fire service but they are perfectly competent light weight construction as long as no fire is involved.”

“strz: I also have a special debt. The second floor of my house and the roof went up in flame - fire crew did an incredible job managing the fire. I was blown away by how little water damage there was in the first floor - the skill and professionalism was amazing. Not to mention the FD ambulance crew being part of the reason I'm alive and well and backpacking in '07.”

“Finger...LOL you should read the books by Chief Brannigan (he skewers the Truss industry)...You have not lived until you get a cease and desist letter from the Truss industry. (I have one)!!!

MAN I am ticked....opened the paper to find the "know it alls" are already monday morning quarterbacking the fire.

Jeese, sorry but it looked like a run of the mill dumpster fire. It must have gotten in the ceiling (built up roof from the look of it) and there was something up there that burned.

Sorry but I am afraid I would have made the same call. But NO the Union Thugs are starting to second guess the chief.


Here is an idea stop telling these guys HOW to do their job. Unless you want to put on the airpack and crawl in there and hump hose or face a family member who has lost everything...STFU, Back off and let the boys (generic term here) ride.

In almost 20 years in the business I cannot think of one guy who went to work saying,"HMM I think I will get killed in a flashover and collapse today."

It is a hazard but they know what they are doing a HELL of a lot better than the know it all union or "safety" thugs out there.”

“I don't know the story here, but but how many people with burning buildings (especially when inside or with loved one's inside) want the Fire crew to deliberate for half an hour before going in? This is one case where you want some rush decisions made - sadly they won't all be right in hindsight.

I did see interesting comments about the "one in, one out" rule vs. the "two in, two out" rule.”

“We use the two in two out with the exception of people trapped (we can and do add pets to that too).

I remember years ago we had a reporterette in a city who was just slamming the police about shootings. She kept saying they were not using restraint.

So the Police let her go through the "Deadly Force" training course....LOL she actually drew and fired more often than the cops.

The thing is you make a decision based on the information (your experience and knowledge included) at THAT TIME. I think they thought they were doing the right thing.”

“man, XL, I am not sure if I want to imagine all this. It makes me sick with fear. I mean, that guy I was talking about, is a friend who lives on the other side of the Atlantic, so pretty far far away and yet, hearing those news I felt cold fear running through me and had to check on him, if he is ok.
To know that someone close to you (husband, brother, son...) might take risks like that, is very hard to deal with.
Hey, volunteering or professional, anybody doing a job like that, is helping others, doing something positiv, something that matters, something you can be realy proud of...but, I can tell you, I wouldn't want that anybody I know would get hurt doing that job. And that fear would stay with me every time a call comes.
Just be careful next time you're crawling around in hell fire to pull out 330lb of dead woman, or Mobby in his fish tank, ok? I mean, there is a chance that somebody worries and cares about you too!”

“As I told my father when he gave me grief for it his line was,"You have a MASTERS degree for God's sake, why do you do it."

The answer (I think ST can agree on this), 'Someone has to, and I can."


Oh I am outa here in a couple of hours for the long run to Charleston for the funeral.”

“By truss industry I assume we're talking the metal plate connected wood truss guys. TPI or something like that? I hate doing projects with wood trusses. A 2x4 top and bottom chord that bakes in a 130° southern attic for 10-20 years can't possibly be a fire hazard, right?”

“http://www.firehouse.com/brannigan/2002/1006.html

Here you go....

and the person at the right of the front door going in..what used to be the Picture window of the house.....


”

“You are 100 percent right XL...Its a job that someone has to do and I can....I could'nt have said it better myself and after 12 years, I can't imagine doing anything else...I guess it says something that I don't even get worked up like I used to when we are responding to a structure fire. Its my job and thats what I'm there for....the only other thing on my mind is going home to my family that night. So you do it right and go back to the station until the next alarm comes.”

“WOW...just got back from one of the most emotionally stressful and rewarding two days of my life.

Went down yesterday with my company to Charleston. Had a nice dinner, worked on the truck, (took the rookies into town) then got about 3 hours sleep and we were up an rolling at 0500.

I am hearing estimates of 100 trucks...BULLHOCKEY...I heard 200+ vehicles (never know but they were two or three deep around the streets, and there were more coming in as we pulled out).

7 mile drive to the Civic Center....lined with people. I don't know what hit me worse seeing the scene...or the crowds of people lining the route. The trip was replete with handmade signs, flags, and people either waving, saluting, or standing with their hands over their hearts.

There was one local reporterette trying to do a story and losing it, then you would see the average person sitting in their car crying.

The last overpass before the civic center was lined with people and flags. Finally as we approaced the civic center we were greeted by those real heroes the Patriot Guard.

The ceremony was stunning....I just can't describe it enough.

Great trip, I am exhausted both physically and emotionally...but it was an incredible experience.”

“Yes, I thought of you and was wondering how it was going in Charleston.”

“





”

“Thanks for sharing XL. I did the fire service for 25 years. And was kidded with the usual digs of the easy life at the station. Most folks have no idea of the intensity, stress and danger of firefighting. The guys at the local volunteer station where I recently moved to asked me to join, just as a driver. I declined as enough is enough. I am going to work for the county in a less stressful occupation as a jailer in Chattanooga.”

“Thanks for posting the pictures, XL.”

“XL - Thanks for the pictures. I'm glad you went. I think the best thing you can in the aftermath is show some solidarity.”

“Thanks, dude.”

“Ped you hit it on the head...you know tis a tragedy and there REALLY is nothing we can do. Sure the armchair quarterbacks will dissect the actions of the captains and the fireground officers and will probably come up with some useless "safety related" Bullhockey decision...but it will come down to this.

It was a run of the mill fire looked totally normal from the outset. The entry was proper, the men were in teams it just WENT bad. There is no way to prevent that. Its why WE fight fire.

OH the firefighters from Charleston were quote "OVERWHEMLED" by the support.”

“Good - I'm sure thats what they need: overwhelming support.”

“People don't want to think that bad things happen to them and they really want to believe there is always justice in this world - so when bad things happen, almost all of us have some urge to find a reason to believe "it can't happen to us" and "they did something wrong to deserve it."

In lots of fields, its valuable to study events that go bad - sometimes there is something to learn. But its important not to move into this "blame the victim" mode - which can make a lot of people feel better, but dumps blame on those who are hurting the most. I'm used to this is a less life and death situation - dealing with physical force and agitated psychiatric patients. When someone gets hurt - its important to look for lessons to learn, but not to look for scapegoats.”

“Ped you got that right. As for "patients" I agree. There are some that, God help them cannot or will not ever be able to differentiate reality (I call them Senators (LOL)).

No Seriously, there are some who are constitutionally incapable but the ones that frost my grommet are the ones who have found a rather effective DODGE to playing right on the razor's edge of the "Sanity/Wack Job" line.

I knew a guy who had for 20 years after Vietnam worked in a productive lifestyle. Then one day he got REALLY drunk, got in MAJOR trouble and his attorney had him diagnosed with "PTSD" it became his dodge. He could do pretty much ANYTHING and we paid his way.

8 years ago he finally did something "very bad" while drunk and stoned. The judge, a Vet himself, reviewed the case. THe guy claimed he had NO CONTROL over his actions. The judge gave him a choice. He told him if he (the judge) ever saw the guy in court again for alchohol or drugs he was locking him up for 10 years.

Strangely the guy has managed to not drink since then....This was a guy who COULD NOT CONTROL HIS BEHAVIOR??? but he could when faced with Jail???”

“I'm pretty suspicious of the claim people can't control their behavior. Funny how quite a few I've met lose control when their victims are alone and in out of the way places - but never in the light of day when there are lots of witnesses.

There have been a few I've believed, but usually I say "won't" when they say "can't."”

“IF'n you want

Please see the attachment for the front and back designs for the fallen firefighters in Charleston, S.C. T-shirt. Proceeds are going to the SC Fallen Firefighter Memorial in Columbia, S.C. and the National Fallen Firefighters Foundation , earmarked for travel expenses to the memorial service for the family members next October (08) in Emmitsburg MD .

Please feel free to forward or post this listing.



Thank you , Peter Rogers

T-Shirts $25.00



Proceeds going to the SC Firefighters Memorial and the National Fallen Firefighters Foundation



They will be at the SC Firefighters Fire/Rescue Convention in Myrtle Beach Ju1y 18-21



Contact: Peter Rogers firefightersupport@msn.com



























”

“http://www.wcsh6.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=66068

Who knew those Dukes of Hazzard boys where twiggies neighbors? ;-)”

“XL - I had a planning meeting for a Walkathon (for Burn Survivors) I'm organizing for October. We are tieing it into fire prevention week.

During the meeting, we came up with an idea: how about organizing a walk team to walk in memory of those who died in Charleston. Maybe we could have nine walkers, each carrying the name of one of the fallen.

We could send a picture of the team to Charleson FD.

I am going to order a couple shirts.

Also, how are the survivors doing? Are there many who were injured?”