Define: racist

“Look at the list above. Please don't ever make the argument that the Republican Party doesn't have a racist base. (not all or even most are racists, but they sure like that vote.)
last edited: 6/15/05 11:19:18 AM”

“it wasn't theirs, yours or my mistake. That is like when the blacks wanted Pres. Clinton to apologize for the Civil War..why?? BTW he didn't do it either.
It is something that cannot be undone nor should you have to apologize for it. If you want to apologize for something you had no control over go do it.”

“The Senate had 200 chances to pass anti-lynching legislation. It was fillibustered each time. They saw fit to say that they are sorry that they, as a body, did not act to save lives. It implies that they will do better in the future.

15 Senators wanted no part of that.
last edited: 6/15/05 11:32:49 AM”

“These sitting Senators?”

“And who were these senators that filibustered the civil rights laws? Southern Democrats! Another reason the filibuster should be done away with.”

““These sitting Senators” maneuvered to avoid a roll call vote and wouldn’t add their names as co-sponsors.

They should be exposed and shamed.”

“And again, have you researched each case? Did you miss my post about Senator Hatch? Shaming him and calling him a rascist who tacitly approves of lynching or insinuating that his constituency does is simply absurd.”

“"I know for a fact he is a Mormon. I also know for a fact that part of the problems Mormonism found in its beginning was that they were abolitionists. So before you go giving him a call, or heck, any of these people, maybe do something we like to call rational thinking and research first.”

Harlock
11:15:26 AM
6/15/05

Actually Harlock you are the one who needs to do some research. Some Mormon's owned slaves. Mormonism had no official doctrine on slavery. To start your research, you might look at Utah's web page on slavery which states:

"The Mormon church had no official doctrine for or against slaveholding, and leaders were ambivalent. In 1836 Joseph Smith wrote that masters should treat slaves humanely and that slaves owed their owners obedience. During his presidential campaign in 1844, however, he came out for abolition. Brigham Young tacitly supported slaveholding, declaring that although Utah was not suited for slavery the practice was ordained by God. In 1851 Apostle Orson Hyde said the church would not interfere in relations between master and slave."

The Mormon church has had a history of official racism from which they were very slow to distance themselves. Check this out for example:

"BRUCE R. MCCONKIE
Mormon Doctrine, p. 114
In a broad general sense, caste systems have their root and origin in the gospel itself, and when they operate according to the divine decree, the resultant restrictions and segregation are right and proper and have the approval of the Lord. To illustrate: Cain, Ham, and the whole Negro race have been cursed with a black skin, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a caste apart, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry. (Gen. 4; Moses 5.)"
last edited: 6/15/05 11:59:37 AM”

“Violin, if you want to apologize go ahead. Congress has more pressing matters than this crap”

“"During his presidential campaign in 1844, however, he (Joseph Smith) came out for abolition." This is to what I am referring.

Please note, Mormon Doctrine was actually not officially Mormon Dcotrine as well... it was a book that, I believe, is not official cannon.”

“To add, blacks were denied access to the Mormon priesthood until 1978.

For one interestin historical perspective read: http://www.reformmormonism.org/racism-apology.htm”

“style over substance”

““"During his presidential campaign in 1844, however, he (Joseph Smith) came out for abolition."

Isn't this about 17 years * * before * * Abe Lincoln abolished slavery? but of course Abe only abolished it in those States the North was at war with, and had no ability (at that time) to enforce that abolition.”

“Yes, Those of African descent were denied the Priesthood until 1978. For the real perspective go here: http://scriptures.lds.org/od/2 and allow me some quotations, "Aware of the promises made by the prophets and presidents of the Church who have preceded us that at some time, in God’s eternal plan, all of our brethren who are worthy may receive the priesthood, and witnessing the faithfulness of those from whom the priesthood has been withheld, we have pleaded long and earnestly in behalf of these, our faithful brethren, spending many hours in the Upper Room of the Temple supplicating the Lord for divine guidance. He has heard our prayers, and by revelation has confirmed that the long-promised day has come when every faithful, worthy man in the Church may receive the holy priesthood, with power to exercise its divine authority, and enjoy with his loved ones every blessing that flows therefrom, including the blessings of the temple. Accordingly, all worthy male members of the Church may be ordained to the priesthood without regard for race or color."

Which quote seems to directly refute the claim from the website to which you linked that claimed, "LDS Official Declaration - 2, while clearing the way for the future, made no attempt to explain which of these propositions was being corrected or changed, something required for a rational person to eliminate cognitive dissonance on the matter. Current LDS Church leadership feels no such resolution is necessary, having stated that the Official Declaration - 2 "continues to speak for itself...I don't see anything further that we need to do." (President Gordon B. Hinckley, 1998.)"

What was being corrected? I think Hinckley nailed it when he said it speaks for itself.”

“"Isn't this about 17 years * * before * * Abe Lincoln abolished slavery? but of course Abe only abolished it in those States the North was at war with, and had no ability (at that time) to enforce that abolition.” ~manaku

Well, at least someone gets it. :)”

“I have no idea if any or all of those 15 Senators are racist or not. I do know that it's also possible that they feel as Ewker does and that they'd prefer to spend their time on issues they feel are more important. That doesn't make them racist, but it does seem a curious way for them to make a point. It sounds like V is making this too black and white, if you'll forgive the analogy.”

“I just wonder what on earth this was supposed to accomplish. The victims of lynching very obviously cannot rise from the grave and say you're forgiven, and I doubt many would if they could. What I am trying to figure out is how someone like me fits in. My descendant both owned and in some cases were slaves. Should I issue an apology to myself and then refuse to sustain it? It's retarded. People need to let it go.”

“style over substance”

“Yes, yes, yes. I know it, and you know it, but it's the sheep we have to contend with...
last edited: 6/15/05 12:26:48 PM”

“Harlock: First of all, that is some selective tunnel vision. Joseph Smith calls for abolition in 1844, but does not order Mormon's to free their own slaves. Subsequently the church continues to insist that it will not infere in relations between master's and their slaves. The Mormon's preach racial inferiority and accursedness of blacks for well over a century afterwards. Under Ezra Taft Benson the 1960s the Mormon's were rabid enemies of Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement.

Anyway, there are no grounds for upbraiding anyone for ignorance or lack of research in because they implied Hatch and his constituency might have something to apologize for with respect to racist history.

I'm not tryin to single out LDS or Mormonism here. I'm responding to your post singling out the case of Hatch. Southern Baptists and many other churches have pretty ugly histories as well. Some few have exemplary hisories on racism and slavery. The Congregational and the Quaker churches, for example.”

“IMO if they apologize for this then what's next? Apologizing for drunk drivers, smokers,rapist,murders..the list goes on”

“...the internment of Japanese-American citizens during World War II, stealing of the homelands of native Hawaiians, syphilis experiments on African American men in Tuskegee... the list goes on”

“nothing like apologizing for the past, gives you that warm fuzzy feeling doesn't it”

“LOL

The Vile Man can find a racist under every rock!

Both my Senators have issued statements saying they do not believe the Senate needs to apologize for something the Senate DIDN'T do fifty years ago.

This is the kind of FEEL GOOD crap the Libs love that doesn't solve ANYTHING.

More important things are needed to solve todays problems.”

“Define: racist
The Vile Man defines racist as wanderer, or anyone else that doesn't hold his own far left political view.
LOL”

“Define: racist

Someone who says minorities are incapable of getting good jobs or careers on their own. Affirmative action is much more insulting than Senators not apologizing for something they didn't do...”

““Define: racist

Someone who says minorities are incapable of getting good jobs or careers on their own. Affirmative action is much more insulting than Senators not apologizing for something they didn't do...”
Harlock
11:29:44 AM
6/15/05

No one believes that the senators were apologizing for their own actions. The apology also isn't being directed at the directvictims of lynching.”

“No one believes that the senators were apologizing for their own actions. The apology also isn't being directed at the directvictims of lynching.”
Phaedrus
1:36:01 PM
6/15/05

Then it's just an empty apology for good PR? In that case, more power to those who refused to sign it.”

“It's what the Dems and most politicians do best, Hot Air. ;-)”

“Then it's just an empty apology for good PR? In that case, more power to those who refused to sign it.”
Harlock
11:38:19 AM
6/15/05

I think you're right. For those who refused to sign it, it probably would have been an empty apology.”

“Phaedrus - Have you made any public apologies for your ancestors ventures in the slave trade?

Have you publically invited American Indians to stay free in your residense since you are partaking in the American government's stolen land share?”

““Phaedrus - Have you made any public apologies for your ancestors ventures in the slave trade?

Have you publically invited American Indians to stay free in your residense since you are partaking in the American government's stolen land share?

1. on neither side of my family were there slave traders.
2. the second part of your trolling discusses reparations, not apology, and is a separate issue.”

“I think you're right. For those who refused to sign it, it probably would have been an empty apology.”
Phaedrus
1:43:11 PM
6/15/05

And for those that did sign it? How does this apology help? Does it help absolve their poor, tortured conscience? If so, not only is it empty, it's selfish and an insult to those those might have been lynched. Give me a break, anyone with two brain cells to rub together can easily see this is more political maneuvering than sincerity.”

“Phaedrus -

1. How do you know the Senator's had slave traders in their families? How do you know nobody on either side of your family every were slave traders?

2. Have you apologized for your actions publically?”

“And for those that did sign it? How does this apology help? Does it help absolve their poor, tortured conscience? If so, not only is it empty, it's selfish and an insult to those those might have been lynched. Give me a break, anyone with two brain cells to rub together can easily see this is more political maneuvering than sincerity.”
Harlock
11:48:01 AM
6/15/05


And anybody with a whiff of the gas given off by two brain cells rubbing together at one hundred yards can see that they are apologizing for the senate's actions of the time, since they are senators.”

“1. How do you know the Senator's had slave traders in their families? How do you know nobody on either side of your family every were slave traders?

2. Have you apologized for your actions publically?”
Sarge
11:48:44 AM
6/15/05

1. Who cares. They're in the senate. See above.

2. My native American heritage exempts me. You could apologise to me, though, if you'd like. I'll forgive you.”

“And anybody with a whiff of the gas given off by two brain cells rubbing together at one hundred yards can see that they are apologizing for the senate's actions of the time, since they are senators.”
Phaedrus
1:56:01 PM
6/15/05

And again, I ask, why? What does it do? Who does it benefit? I'm no conspiracy theorist or anything, but really, look at what you are saying and then ask yourself just what "apologizing for the senate's actions of the time, since they are senators," does for anyone or anything. Again, why?”

“And again, I ask, why? What does it do? Who does it benefit? I'm no conspiracy theorist or anything, but really, look at what you are saying and then ask yourself just what "apologizing for the senate's actions of the time, since they are senators," does for anyone or anything. Again, why?”
Harlock
11:58:38 AM
6/15/05


Institutionally recognizing a mistake and making a public apology to its victims gives an indication that such a mistake will not happen again.”

“1. But they weren't there. They were elected citizens.

2. So you're 100% native american?”

“Sarge, Sarge, Sarge.....

Haven't you figured out that Phaedrus only posts to get a reaction? He's playing you, dude.”

“1. They are apologizing, again (tediously repeating myself), not for themselves, but for the institution they represent.
2. no. The other half is from europe.”

“"Institutionally recognizing a mistake and making a public apology to its victims gives an indication that such a mistake will not happen again.”

Hahaha. Really? You really believe that? Baaaaah. This was just a hollow gesture. Making a public apology to its victims or their descendents or to the populace is simply PR. It's spin at its best. I am glad 15 Senators had the good sense to recognize it as such. A public apology from a politician is worth as much as used toilet paper in my opinion. I'm not right and I'm not left. I am simply cynical.”

“Haven't you figured out that Phaedrus only posts to get a reaction? He's playing you, dude.”
StoveStomper
12:02:23 PM
6/15/05

Oh loooook who's talking!

Here's my SS impression:

"Why does every liberal suck like a hoover? LOL"

Dork.

:)”

“Personally, I don't have strong feelings about this. I do see some value in repentance, and for people who see the Senate as an institution with continuity and history - some statement of repentance by the institution makes sense. The Bible is certainly stron on the value of collective atonement and repentance. If collective or institutional repentance was the oal, I don't have any problem with a unanamous consent decree... no need for individuals to go on record.

Of course, it is interesting to see who wouldn't sign on - but I can't see bashing Frist over how the vote was handled. (there are better things to bash him for)
last edited: 6/15/05 2:06:01 PM”

“SS - I know. That's why I said he was trolling previously.”

“Hahaha. Really? You really believe that? Baaaaah. This was just a hollow gesture. Making a public apology to its victims or their descendents or to the populace is simply PR. It's spin at its best. I am glad 15 Senators had the good sense to recognize it as such. A public apology from a politician is worth as much as used toilet paper in my opinion. I'm not right and I'm not left. I am simply cynical.”
Harlock
12:04:37 PM
6/15/05

So why not do it, then, if it means nothing and it's good PR? After all politicians love good PR.”

“So why not do it, then, if it means nothing and it's good PR? After all politicians love good PR.”
Phaedrus
2:07:10 PM
6/15/05

See above where I spoke about hollow gestures and insulting to the memories of those that were lynched... Some people have principles and stand behind them, and bully for them. To hell with the sheisters.”

“..said one Dork to the other... ;-)
LOL”

“See above where I spoke about hollow gestures and insulting to the memories of those that were lynched... Some people have principles and stand behind them, and bully for them. To hell with the sheisters.”
Harlock
12:09:02 PM
6/15/05

Right, that's why the families showed up there to watch and be insulted. They obviously felt a need for it.”

“How about if just the democrats apologize, since it was southern democrats that filibusters and kept those laws from being passed?”