A**HOLES W/DOGS

“Buck, I took a look through your albums last night. Beautiful photos you got there. Don't be a stranger when the next Sacramento get together comes up! Oh, and bring the dogs. :)”

“Buck's insistance that is ok for him to break the law is typical of the behavior I see on the trail. If dog owners adhere to common courtesy and follow the rules I don't have a problem with the dogs.

They almost never do. People with their dogs in the wilderness will pattenly justify their inabiltiy to follow the rules.”

“"Buck's insistance that is ok for him to break the law is typical of the behavior I see on the trail. If dog owners adhere to common courtesy and follow the rules I don't have a problem with the dogs."
bacpac
06:59:11 PM
10/29/03

Wrongo, bongo, bacpac. It's the backcountry rangers who tell me it's okay to roam with my dogs without a leash as long as they are under control. Instead of taking this issue up with me, why don't you take it up with the rangers? And remember, even though you don't think you do, I know you speed now and then. I'm not sure why you insist on speeding, and your inability to follow the speeding laws is okay with me, and most CHP officers... up to a point.”

“violin, as annoying as you can be, i always thought you were intelligent. until that last statement.”

“hey Buck, when i get my llamas, do you and your pups wanna go hikin' with us? are they well-behaved around livestock?

you and Violin are cracking me up. what a great thread, such a pity i've been ignoring it for so long!”

“that statement, " most dog owners are pathetically lonely, psychologically isolated, mentally inept, and in need of social interaction on any level" etc, is the statement i meant. not your last statement. your last statement was sheer brilliance. really.”

“those who post on trailtalk morning, noon and night with cut and paste partisan politics and links of dubious nature but who have never been on a trailtalk trip are pathetically lonely, psychologically isolated, mentally inept, and in need of social interaction on any level.”

“btw, buck, your dogs and those scenery shots are GORGEOUS!”

“Clearly the title of this thread is appropriate.”

“Great shots!! Great dogs!! I'd always been a bit in the "hey, keep dogs off the trail" camp. However, after hiking with stikmon and Khatru... and gojo and sarabelle and gizmeau (or is it back to Gizmo yet?? lol)... well, hey, they are good dogs!! I do think some people need to realize their dogs are not trained that well. I have no problem with trained dogs on the trail.”

“jesus. bacpac and violin agree on something. i think thats the third sign of the apocalyse.

rock on, buck! i mean, dog on!”

“OK...who's the A**HOLE who brought this thread back to life???”

“me!”

“Buck,
I love the pics...

I got a dog from a shelter about 6 months ago and am trying to train her so that she can go without a leash on the trail. She\'s a lab, so she\'s very frisky and loving. I\'ve taken her out on one bpacking trip and she was great, but she loves to chase everything, including deer and horses, so I have learned that I need to keep her on a leash right now. Did you have your dogs professionally trained? Where do they sleep? My dog slept in my tent, but wanted to get in the sleeping bag with me, therefore, I did not get sleep that night. I would love some advice on how I can get her to behave like your dogs on the trail.

About leashed dogs on trails...

I live in a fairly large city and frequently visit the local parks with my dog. I always keep her leashed (because she is crazy hyper), but most people here do not. It does cause problems because she will want to run and play with the unleashed dogs, so I cant control her (I don\'t weight that much more than her and she is much stronger...).

I would love to be able to not have to leash her on my bpacking trips. It can be dangerous at times for me, especially because of all the ridges and steep slopes here in the southeast.

To everyone else:

It seems as if there are a lot of resentment towards dogs here. I thought most people who love to be out hiking and bpacking enjoy all parts of nature...including animals?”

“"Great pics of the Sierra (?) and your doggies. I see Banner Pk, and Thousand Island Lk. Where were some of the other pics taken?"
Idaho bob
05:19:38 PM
10/29/03

Hi Idaho bob®! Thanks! And first of all, I love backpacking in Idaho. I've spent three summers backpacking through the Frankly You Should Go To Church Wilderness and the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness. Ahhh, I love those places... so vast and so wild! It seemed like the summers I spent up there (3-5 years ago), I kept getting burned out by fires. Same thing with the Bob Charcoal Wilderness in MT. I'm eager to get back up there.

As far as the other places in my doggy photos, here's the list off the top of my head: 1) Heidi and Sierra on the Piute Pass trail, John Muir Wilderness 2) Dogs in Ansel Adams Wilderness 3) Ruby Lake - John Muir Wilderness 4) Lowest lake in Pioneer Basin - JMW 5) Heidi above 1000 Island Lake - Ansel Adams Wilderness 6) Heidi up on untrailed pass between Royce Lakes and Bear Lakes Basin 7) Lunch time at one of the Bear Lakes - JMW 8) Heidi on the summit of Graveyard Peak - JMW 9) Kayaking inlet of Wright's Lake, Desolation Wilderness 10) Lost Coast 11) Lost Coast 12) Looking down on Bear Lakes Basin - JMW 13) Nearing Italy Pass, westside 14) Flowers, Desolation Wilderness 15) Wet doggies, inlet of Wright's Lake 16) Late evening, dogs in full curl, Upper Granite Park Basin under Italy Pass - JMW 17-20) Lost Coast 21-22) Desolation Wilderness 23-24) Dogs climbing Horsetail Falls, Desolation Wilderness 25-27) Dogs in remote Hooper Basin - JMW 28) Heidi at Mono Lake 29) Dogs at Kings River with hat 30) At Emerald Bay, Lake Tahoe 31) On trail to Tehipite Valley 32-33) Looking over M.F. and S.F. Kings Rivers 34-35) Kayaking Fuller Lake, northwest Tahoe 36) Near Hoover Wilderness 37) Muriel Lake - JMW 38) On trail in Desolation Wilderness.

Whew! Did I post THAT many? Whoa!

embear®, I didn't do any special training with my dogs. From the very first day we got Heidi as a little puppy, I slept with her in my sleeping bag out in the living room so she wouldn't be lonely. Spending so much time with her and her daughter Sierra, they just know what I expect. I did a lot of positive training with them using hotdogs as rewards (mmm mmmm!), but I also wasn't afraid to spank them when they ate little children. Luckily german shepherds are very smart and I didn't have to spank them much in their younger years. I just spent a lot of time with them, taking them places, riding in my car, sleeping with them in my room, etc. Even as tiny puppies, I used to take them into the mountains so they could cross streams and follow me through tall grasses and wildflowers. It's the greatest thing watching them experience new things in life... like butterflies, or a strong wind, or the squack of a bird, or swimming, etc. I used to also take them as puppies out in the park, unleashed (when no one else was around) and train them with basic words like "stay", "no", "sit", etc., over and over with great patience, every day. At first, when they would still get up and walk, not knowing the word "stay", I would just keep taking them back to the point where I told them to stay, not upset or using an angry tone in my voice (they obviously didn't know what I was trying to do), but when they DID stay, I gave them a treat. With enough daily repetition over a few weeks, they were smarter than me. Once they knew those commands, I could take them anywhere, and after spending so much time with me, they just knew what I expected and were happy to obey. It's a natural trait of a german shepherd to be obedient, which is cool. They really do wanna please their master.

I type really fast, at 100 wpm with gusts up to 120, so I flew through that, hope it made sense!”

“A lot of er... Interesting posts.

There does seem to be a bit of confusion on some peoples parts about leash laws, they are not required on most public lands. they are require in most towns and cities along with most state and national parks. The forest service does not require them. You are required to "control" the dog at all times and are responsible for damages but voice control is consider acceptable for the most part. Control and Leash mean two separate things.

Most but not all dog breeds are well suited to trail life as running 20 miles is acually a normal activity for them provided you acclimate them to it. Some breeds like huskies and malmutes require at least 6 miles a day of running to stay in shape and keeping them penned up in a small yard is practically abusive.

As to the other issuses I find dogs are usually much better mannered then the average hiker on the trail....

BTW animal abuse is a sure sign of someone who will abuse humans....”

“Animals must be kept on a leash not longer than six feet and secured to a fixed object or under the control of a person, or otherwise physically restricted at all times. (43 CFR 87365.2-1{c})

BLM supplementary rules reestablished under authority of 43 CFR 8365.1-6. Violations of the rules are punishable by a fine not to exceed $1,000 and/or imprisonment not to exceed 12 months (43 CFR 8360.0-7). Also, all OHVs must be operated in accordance with State laws and regulations relating to use, registration, operation, and inspection of OHVs(43 CFR 8341.1{d}).”

“Defending a leash law charge

But My Dog Is Different

QUESTION:
Leash laws being what they are, how can the county fine me for having a dog "running at large" when he was standing three feet away from me doing nothing? No, he didn't have a leash on -- but is that really running at large?

ANSWER:
The county can fine you because leash means leash. Either Spot had one attached to his neck -- or Spot was a scofflaw.

There is an off chance you could persuade a judge that Spot was not, technically speaking, "running at large." But if I were you, I would not bother buying a basket into which you would put those eggs.”

“if there is a leash law. Then leash your dog. I do,now, carry mace,for dogs that aproach me, MY CHOICE. And I will be responsible for any actions that could occur. Yo bear!”

“if there is a leash law. Then leash your dog. I do,now, carry mace,for dogs that aproach me, MY CHOICE. And I will be responsible for any actions that could occur. Yo bear!”

“I want to thank buck for proving my point. I don't think everyone understood the attitude that many dog owners have. Thanks for making it clear.

The analogy of going two miles over the speed limit and ignoring leash laws is not an exact parallel. I prefer to compare leash laws to tresspassing laws.

If I have an old '73 maveric sitting on blocks in my front yard and decide to store it in Buck's yard that should be no big deal. After all Buck did mention that he thought the '73 maveric was a classic. He rubbed his hand over the fender.

It should be within my rights to store this vehicle on Buck's property. I am not going to take up his whole yard. Good Grief it is a small car. It leaks less oil than his car. He said he liked the car and he never asked me to get rid of it.

I have enough room in my yard so that only a part of the vehicle will be in his yard. This part of his yard is between his front door and where he parks his car. The area where he travels the most, but it is a good car. The horn does not work so it won't make any noise.

What is the problem?”

“Animals must be kept on a leash... or under the control of a person.....

Interesting you would quote a law that does allow VOICE command....

try again?”

“"or under the control of a person" means the leash must be under the control of a person if and when the leash is not "secured to a fixed object." We know this because the sentence ends with "or otherwise physically restricted at all times."

In other words, the dog must be "physically restricted at all times," whether that be by leash "secured to a fixed object," or leash "under the control of a person," or if the dog is "physically restricted" by burying it up to its neck (which I don't advocate).

Animals must be kept on a leash not longer than six feet and secured to a fixed object or under the control of a person, or otherwise physically restricted at all times.”

“well you may read it any way you want since Im not in CA and Im not subject to thier laws.....”

“I'm not in California, either, but I'm a lawyer and I know how to read laws.”

“And I believe catskhiker is a police officer who daily interprets and applies laws.”

“I think dogs are great.

They aren't a natural part of the ecosystem if they live with you.
Save the emotionally driven fiction.
If you can really control your dog by voice...great. Welcome.
If a dog gets out of you control, i.e., jumps on someone, etc. and the dog gets maced, rapped on the head, kicked, etc. ....so be it.

Koreans love dogs too.”

“and so the neverending debate/argument continues...”

“I have dealt with more then one attorney and more then one peace officer.... reading english is not a strong suit of either profession

:D

BTW... BLM does not equal public land.”

“This was taken from the New York State DEC website under Backcountry Hiking and Camping Rules

“Keep your pet under control. Restrain it on a leash when others approach. Collect and bury droppings away from water, trails and camp sites. Keep your pet away from drinking water sources. “”

“First I want to apologize for threatening to re-arranging your dog hating mug.
Violence is not the answer.
I blew my cork. 99% of the time I'm a very warm hearted caring person, again I apologize.

As far as this thread, your Anti- dog offense is definitely in the minority. I know you believe in the democratic system. If you took it to a vote, I bet dogs on the trail would win out.
So the majority rules.
You need to lighten up a little, we are all gods creatures, I've met plenty of humans that are A**holes (including myself at times...lol), But met very few a**hole dogs.

Personally I have 2 English Yellow Labs, Father and Son, I could not ask for 2 more loving,loyal, happy companions. I have not taken them on a hike yet ;-(
Buck,
Whicked awesome pic's dewd.....
I gotta save a few to show my dogs....

Gizmuex, I love you man!!!”

“You would be wrong. These are not Anti-Dog laws; they are pro-society laws. If the majority of people wanted dogs running wild they would not have laws restricting their actions.”

“right on bacpac......the majority doesn't always rule. Wilderness and land management policy decisions cannot be based on what the majority want but what's best for the resource.

I realize that we live in a pet obsessed country, but dogs are still just dogs.”

“Okay, here it is, straight off the government regs for Desolation Wilderness.

Dogs
Pet owners are responsible for the actions of their pets and for the proper disposal of dog waste. The El Dorado County leash law requires that dogs inside the wilderness be under the immediate control of the owner. Dogs off-leash can threaten wildlife or present a hazard to the safety or convenience of other visitors.

http://www.fs.fed.us/r5/eldorado/documents/rogs/desolation_regulations.pdf

Sounds like what they're saying is that the owner is "responsible" for their dogs actions (duh!) and the dog needs to be under the immediate control of the owner. Then it mentions the "possible" threats an unleashed and uncontrolled dog can do.

Believe me, I've hiked hundreds of miles in Desolation Wilderness over many years (it's practically my backyard), and they charge $5 per night per person to backpack in there, which is used to vastly increase the number of backcountry rangers. That place is swarming with backcountry rangers. Climbing Pyramid Peak once, I came upon 3 different rangers in the same day. I have encountered many dozens of rangers, who stop me and check for my permits, as my dogs are there at my side, with their packs on, UNLEASHED, and not one ranger out of dozens has even MENTIONED the requirement of a leash. Care to explain that?

bacpac®, you lost me on your old junk car in my yard? Huh? Aren't we talking about "public" lands here, and not private lands? It's not just "your" land, and it's not the "governments" land, it's "our" land, the public. The government just manages it for us. But it's our land, the people of the United States of America.

Again, leash laws are designed to control out-of-control dogs. The John Muir Wilderness is HUGE, certainly a ranger is not gonna require Fido to be on a 6' leash for a week as you ramble through thick forests, bushwhacking up drainages, crossing ridges and creeks, and swimming in lakes. What a joke. And a backcountry ranger understands this. BUT if a backcountry ranger sees a dog doing something "icky", like harrassing people, other dogs, wildlife, etc., THEN they will throw the leash law at you.

You have not explained to me once, nor attempted to explain, why all my encounters with my unleashed dogs and backcountry rangers has never prompted one response from them about having my dogs leashed? Care to explain? Naw, I didn't think so.”

“If dogs are leashed before others approach, I don't think
most people here would have a problem with them.

The point is that they are not.

Most dogs will bark at strangers. Some people are actually afraid or phobic of dogs. Some people are allergic to them. Many dogs will chase deer (& be shot in NYS). What do you do if a child reacts badly to your dog & he bites? Even tame dogs can spook horses & throw riders. Many things dog owners tolerate non-dog owners do not. They don't like wet/muddy dogs brushing against them or "marking" their pack. Many people hike to see some wildlife & dogs will deter that. Dog owners will tell you that they bury waste but few do. Dogs can carry/transfer deer ticks & things like Lyme disease to people. I bushwhack & if I should startle you, MOST dogs will become very aggressive. Many un-leashed dogs will run ahead of their owners on the trail for the new scents. Should I allow your dog to snarl & snap at me until you come by to "control" him? I have been bit & I did come very close to shooting that dog. Would I be wrong? An un-leashed dog would be a personal injury lawyers dream case.”

“We know Buck the rules are for everyone else.”

“If a dog owner trains their dogs there should be no problems with them on the trail. Typically, it's the owner's fault, not the dogs fault when there are problems.”

“Bwwwaaaaaa Haaaaaaa Haaaaaa!

Why don't I ever encounter these dogs?”

“If you did check out the NYS DEC's website, you'll notice that all the highly trained dogs the ENCON officers use are on leashes. (liability) Most officer's won't write a ticket unless there is a complaint.”

“This thread is and always will go in circles. No one is going to change anyone else's mind. Those who dislike dogs on the trail (whether leashed or unleashed) will continue to do so. Just as those who believe their dogs to be unleashed-worthy, will continue to let their dogs run free.

So, while I understand it's useless to debate and I know my opinion is not unique, I will throw in my $0.02... If a dog is not under total verbal command, the dog should be leashed. My dog is leashed when she hikes w/ me. I have taken her off the leash a few times, but not for extended periods. Usually it's because I'm testing the boundaries w/ her. You don't really know what your dog is capable of unless you test those limits. She's always done very well off the leash. But, for the most part, I keep her on it. Mostly for her own safety.

That being said, I have no problems w/ dogs who are not leashed as long as they are under control. I enjoy most dogs on the trail.

bacpac - you continue to be one of my favorite TTers. Your posts are almost always so succinct and downright hysterical. I realize this has nothing to do w/ the Great Dog Debate... just thought I'd share.

Buck - Your dogs look well behaved. If you have them under control, I have no problem w/ them being unleashed on the trail.

Your photos are awesome! And, yer dogs are real purty, too. GS is one of my favorite breeds. My Sadie is part GS. And, part Bordie Collie, too (I'm told). She's very smart and a great companion. She'd hike w/ me more, but she has a recurring back problem. :-(”

“Buck, the backcountry rangers are not hassling you about leashes because they're using discretion in deciding what they're going to enforce and how they're going to enforce it. If I'm correct that catskhiker is a police officer, he can tell you a lot more authoritatively than I can about law enforcement officers and their literally minute-by-minute exercise of discretion in enforcing laws.

The fact that you haven't seen the law enforced against you and your dogs doesn't mean the law doesn't exist. As a matter of fact, the next time you meet a ranger he may enforce the leash law (if there is one) because he had a fight with his wife that morning, because he doens't like the color of your hat, because there's been a directive to enforce the leash law, or just because.

If I have a little more free time this afternoon, I may do a little research to see if any court has decided what exactly "under the immediate control of the owner" means (i.e., whether it means leashed - there may be no leash requirement to enforce in Desolation Wilderness).”

“Hi catskhiker!

"Most dogs will bark at strangers."

Your experience in the backcountry with dogs is vastly different than mine. Very rarely do dogs bark when I come across them, even when they see my dogs, much less me or others. Man, dogs must be very different where you live.

"Some people are actually afraid or phobic of dogs. Some people are allergic to them."

Well, out here in CA, there shouldn't be a problem finding great places to hike because people can't bring dogs in the backcountry in National Parks and most State Parks. There's more places where dogs are restricted than where dogs are allowed.

"What do you do if a child reacts badly to your dog & he bites?"

Ohmygosh! I've encountered hundreds of backcountry dogs and have NEVER EVER seen ANYONE get bit or threatened. Desolation Wilderness has LOTS of hiking dogs, and I read injury reports... your odds of getting injured are probably better with being struck by lightning than getting injured by a strangers dog! If someone got attacked by a dog on the trail, it would be on the freakin' NEWS, it's so rare. It doesn't happen, at least not out here, your mileage may vary.

"Even tame dogs can spook horses & throw riders."

Oh man! Yes, happens everyday! ANOTHER DOG THROWS RIDER OFF HORSE! Come on! And yes, you can also be mauled by a black bear, which I think has happened once in the last 20 years here in CA.

"They don't like wet/muddy dogs brushing against them or "marking" their pack."

Are you guys SERIOUS here? You don't want a wet dog brushing against your pack, or marking it with perhaps, dirt? I'm lost here? You go into the rugged wilderness to... make sure you don't get your backpack marked or any dirt or moisture on you? I look at scuff marks on my pack, and boots, and gear as "great memories"! Look, I OWN two big dogs and they don't even "mark" my backpack!

"Dogs can carry/transfer deer ticks & things like Lyme disease to people."

People get them too. Wildlife gets them and transfers them too. And what does this have to do with leashes? If a dog is on a leash, ticks stay away?

"I bushwhack & if I should startle you, MOST dogs will become very aggressive."

First of all, WARNING: BUSHWHACKIG MAY CAUSE "MARKS" ON YOUR PACK. And your statement that most dogs become aggressive if startled is simply untrue. I bushwhack all the time. When I'm bushwhacking I rarely see other people, much less dogs. It sounds like the places you hike are infested with very mean, aggressive, wet and muddy dogs ready to either pounce on an unsuspecting hiker, or at the very least brush up against them with their dripping mud bodies, while the owner stands nearby pointing and laughing. WHAT KIND OF PICTURE ARE YOU TRYING TO PAINT HERE? It's an agenda. Which is cool, but it's pretty obvious. Also, while bushwhacking, if I DO come across dogs, I have NEVER had one act "aggressive" towards me. This boggles my mind they way you guys explain the wilderness as being filled with mean dogs around every bend, and if the dog doesn't bite you, then the owner will kick you as he walks by.

"I have been bit & I did come very close to shooting that dog."

Wait a minute here... you hike with a gun? I think I'm understanding your mindset now. It's cool (backing away veeeerrrry s-l-o-w-l-y).

Hey catskhiker, sorry for my bit of sarcasm, but I think you (and others) are GREATLY exaggerating any danger from dogs. If you have a paranoia of dogs from a childhood experience or something, I understand, many people do, but that doesn't mean all dogs are bad and that it should restrict the doggy-world from exploring wild areas. Yes, there probably are inconsiderate dog owners, but from my experience that's by far the exception and not the rule, as there are also very inconsiderate "hikers" too. I was stuck behind a big group of Sierra Clubbers (I'm not anti-Sierra Club, btw) for about 20 minutes as me and a buddy were hiking down at a fast rate of speed, and they wouldn't let us by on the narrow trail. They could've/should've simply stepped aside real quick. WE WERE HUNGRY and food was only a couple miles away. But nooOOooOOooo, they had to slowly meander down the trail, gabbing, knowing we were right there behind them, obviously crankin' down the switchbacks. Rudeness or inconsideration is not just a "dog owner" trait. And I wouldn't suggest we ban Sierra Clubbers or make a law FORCING them to jump off trail for faster hikers.”

“What about this theory...

It is a free country we all live in. We all have our own likes, dis-likes and opinions. Every American should be able to enjoy whatever He/She likes to do. They only thing is we should be responsible and considerate with these actions. IF there is a conflict, apologize and/or forgive your fellow person. If we all could be willing to accept each other as who we are, then we would one step closer to peace on earth. IMAGINE!”

“Two weekends ago I was chased up a tree by a couple dogs. I'm not sure what breed they were - most likely mixed. But they galloped at me barking and snarling, and a handy tree was nearby, so I scrambled up instead of pulling out my pistol or confronting them with my hiking staff. They quickly lost interest and moved on. No collars on them and no one was around to my knowledge, so they were probably farm dogs out on long patrol."
Mutt
01:31:54 PM
10/29/03

Is that made up? It sounds made up. If it isn't, don't you think you're a bit paranoid?

BTW, Violin, this is perhaps your best troll since CC Rider.”

“Phaedrus, what about it sounds made up? Paranoid? Maybe. Personally, I thought the decision to hop up in the hedge tree was the best decision. It assured that I did not get bit and that the dogs did not get hurt. Why take a chance with my health or the dogs' health, you know?”

“Blast 'em. Why are you carrying if you don't want to use it?”

“Dr Pivo, was that directed at me? I hope never to have to use the pistol in self defense, as should anyone who takes the responsibility of carrying.”

“You don't have to use it if you don't want to. You can just continue to let dogs chase you up trees.”

“You're just trolling. heh.”

“I just see a person climbing a tree because of a couple of dogs on the trail as kind of silly. I've never had an encounter with a dog, on or off-trail, that I was unable to handle. Every situation is different, I guess.”