A**HOLES W/DOGS

“I love my master;
Thus I perfume myself with
This long-rotten squirrel.”

“Mr. lee -
Try to keep me away from the woods...

I will be ther, so get use to it.”

“BobK, read lizs' thread.”

“Seems to me, the first time I got on this site they were debating the same subject. It's apparent the personal opinions are as bipolar as a magnet. Someone states their opinin, we all argue who's is better, some get so worked up that low blows get thrown, and the end still remains the same...we all go about hiking in the manner we always have, with or without a dog involved, and the discussion soon disappears.

This is an awesome topic of discussion. Can't wait till a few months from now when this topic rolls around again!”

“I don't think my views on this issue are warped at all. I too believe in a midle ground, which is to be very honest with oneself about how well your dog is trained and socialized. You have to be 100 percent certian that your dog will not be a problem for anyone on the trail. Then and only then should you consider taking your dog along.

Lee, the way I look at it is, my dogs have just as much right as you or I do to be in the woods. This has nothing to do with the natural habitat issue. The issue is that my dogs are trained, they are well behaved, if others are around they are on leash, they like being in the woods, and I like being with them in the woods. There is no valid reason why well behaved dogs should not be allowed on the trail (except in extreme bear country, of course).”

“Dunadan, which thread would be Lizs' thread?”

“I think many of us enjoy the "great outdoors" because we can find peace and tranquility. We can really zone out and not have a care in the world. It is so restful. Many hours and miles of bliss can be dashed by one unknown dog (beast) bounding towards us. Must we look for the wagging tail to determine that the dog will only jump on us, yet not bite our faces off?”

“Dunadan, what are you doing on TT?? And thanks for the support!!

(I'm home SICK......ick!)”

“I lift my leg and
Anoint each bush. Hello, Spot -
Sniff this and weep.”

“I do find dogs less offensive than radios and bright lights, however. I think its okay that they be off the leash "in camp."”

“Why is ever buddy skeerdy chikens for dogs?”

“sarabelle, be quiet and wash them dishes!”

“I have two dogs, one very well behaved, one somewhat behaved, both of which bark at strangers when they come near our house. That doesn't happen when we walk them away from our/their territory. I don't think anyone could twist things around to put me in the "dog hater" category.

That said, I certainly don't see how it could have been MY "irrational" problem when, as I hiked a wilderness trail in early August, an off-the-leash dog came crashing through the underbrush and rushed to within 5 feet of me, lunging, snarling, growling and barking in an extremely aggressive manner. Was I scared and intimidated? You bet. I don't give a crap if it was a "sweet" Irish setter. If the owner hadn't come along just then, I was prepared to defend myself with my hiking stick.

Sure, once the dog was settled by his owner, he was quite a sweet animal, and we did the make-friends routine, since I do like dogs. But if you think your dog acts sweet ALL the time, maybe you just haven't been around ALL the time. The time to find out isn't AFTER they bite someone or get whacked by someone they threaten.

If the dog is off-leash and out of visual or voice or whistle contact (and that only counts if it is thoroughly trained to immediately respond to hand signals or voice commands), that dog is not under your control, no matter how much you want to wish it were so. Even if the dog approaches others in a non-aggressive manner, behavior you believe is "cute" or "friendly" may be seen as rude and invasive by the other person. No one else should have to give your dog treats or put up with being nosed or jumped on, even if you don't mind.”

“I think jumpin on peeple is fun, but I do not do it any ways cuz it is rood. I do smell stinky butts tho cuz it is not rood and peeple like it.”

“Isn't Haiku 5-7-FIVE!??”

“Behold my choke chain -
Look, world, they strangle me!
Ack! Ack! Ack! Ack!”

“Violin is looking for his own BUD commercial!!!”

“lizs -

A true artist cannot be constricted by convention.

I strive for the essence
of haiku without strict adherence to the 17 syllable count.”

“Well and I do like your "essence," Violin! LOL! (Is that what I'm smelling??) hehehhee”

“I can count to five,
but can five count to seven?
Does it rhyme with dog?”

“My owners' mood is
Romantic - I lie near their
Feet, expelling much gas.”

“LOL! Violin, you can't take credit for those. I got them in some spam about three months ago. I think my favorite was the last one you put up.”

“The only one that is mine is:

I can count to five,
but can five count to seven?
Does it rhyme with dog?”

“I just read the first few posts here, but all I have to say is, I feel bad for dogs that are owned by idiots.”

“Ther, a stinky butt.
A rat? Kittykitty? No?
What never, I will smell it any ways cuz stinky butts need smellin.”

“Sarabelle, you are about the funniest dog I have met on TT. LOL”

“BobK,

I am supposed to learn dog body language, because inconsiderate people such as yourself refuse to obey the law? Why.

I don't have an irrational fear of dogs. I had to beat a dog off me with a hiking stick two months ago. It wasn't the first time and it won't be the last. I am certainly not defenseless, but it is a quick way to screw up an otherwise pleasant hike. I don't understand how people can be so inconsiderate.”

“LOL, after reading all the posts on this thread I am dizzy. Is it the bad guys or the dogs we are discussing. LOL
Both, I do not have a problem with dogs on the trail especially if a person is hiking by themselves and want company. However sadly I have seen owners have to carry their pooches out because they were old and have no way of knowing how far they will be going. So unike us they could not pace themselves.
As for myself, I do not take dogs hiking for one reason only. When a dog meets a bear. The dog antagonizes the bear. The bear gets pissed and charges after the dog. The dog turns tail and runs behind my legs. I turn and what do I see? A very upset charging bear. That I now have to deal with. LOL, there are funner ways of hanging in the wild.”

“Buddur, the reason this topic continues to come up is that dogs continually cause problems. BobK is not the first person to tell me I need to modify my behavior so he can enjoy his dogs. Maybe you two can get together and hold a dog body language course, whatever that is.”

“My dog (Rosco) has bagged 1 peak in his whole 2.5 yrs of existence.. He was 2 months old and weighed 14 lbs.. He was so tired & exhausted by the time he reached the summit he flopped down and took a nap (didn't even get to enjoy the view). Snoozed the whole way down, as I carried him back. He achieved the proud title 'Mountain Dog' and I have never taken him since..

I love him too much. I don't want to see him snaked by a rattler, stabbed by a cholla or 'pined' by a porcupine.

Also, other people don't like dogs.”

“BobK, sorry, I meant "post".
Hi, Lizzy! Sorry that you are sick. Are they harvesting corn?”

“Not quite yet. Leaves are starting to turn, though.”

“You bagged a peak with a 2-month old dog, Ms.Biz??? Hate to say it, but that was cruel and inhumane!”

“Boy, what a firestorm! I don't know about colonialmiss'es experiences, but I've run into good and bad folks and dogs on the trail,, it's a bit much to expect everyone else to follow your own little mindset and do as you want us too,, I suppose you feel you have the right to demand that all others do as they're told too,, the National Parks and other public lands were set aside for all the public, and appropriate rules apply to each. I don't take my dog into wilderness areas or bear country, and I always keep her on a leash. My state (RI) requires this on all management area lands except for hunting. I don't walk her too far, dayhikes only and she is far better company to me than many others who are out there. The public lands are there for everyone to enjoy, whether it's for hiking, fishing, photography, or any other hobby, and if you want control, hike your own land then, and by the way, there is a federal tax of 11%on all firearms, ammunition, and fishing equipment, which pays for the places you claim as your own,, do you think folks would like an additional tax of this kind on BPing equipment? think about it.”

“Buddur, it was less than a mile. And I carried him back in my arms like a baby. There are places for dogs, but I'm pretty sure hiking trails aren't it.”

“I saw a responsible but misguided dog owner yesterday. He had two full-grown Alaskan Malamutes leashed and attached to the cross bar of his mountain bike with a carabiner.

I was walking and we ended up passing each other about three times. One time he was resting and they pulled him over. Another time he wanted to turn and they wanted to go straight and they stopped abruptly. And the entire time he was giving the dogs verbal commands which they ignored.

I got the impression he wasn't enjoying his outdoor experience much. Sure was entertaining for me, though.

As for me, I don't mind dogs on the trail, but I like dogs and haven't had a bad experience yet (although I did get bit while delivering papers when I was 11). I've run into more agressive dogs walking around my neighborhood.

But I do agree that dogs should be under control out of repect for others. There are alot of people who are afraid of dogs or just don't like them. They don't want one running up and smelling their crotch or jumping on them or, in some cases, biting them. It sounds like most bad dog experiences are the result of bad owners not realizing how their dog affects the outdoor experiences of others.

Now that this topic has run its course, who carries guns?”

“I've been more paying attention lately to these "guns on the trail" and "dogs on the trail" posts. I wonder if there's not an interesting trend that we might extract from the various comments of those who hike very popular areas vs. those who hike less popular areas.

Seems that different comments come from those in the East, especially the Northeast, that hike more highly populated trails, there I'm sure these trails are more congested than those in say, Montana, Wyoming or the far Northern California wilderness areas I am more accustomed to.

As a marketing person, we focus on trends a lot. IN general, a lot of trends start in the west and migrate east. In backpacking, I think a lot of trends will start in the east, and migrate west. As more and more people become backpackers, will we see the same things occur on the Pacific Crest Trail that we hear of & see on the Appalachian Trail? Will the John Muir Trail face the same issues as the Vermont White Trail? (Hope I have that right, no offense intended to easterners).

What do you think? What's the futiure of backpacking?”

“bacpac, let's try a little harder on our reading comprehension, shall we? First of all, I am not inconsiderate, nor do I break the law. My dogs are leashed when required (and often when not required) and are under control. I make it a point to pack out my dogs' waste, and don't let them drink (or pee) in water sources. Additionally, my dogs have earned canine good citizen certifications from the AKC (American Kennel Club), further evidence of my dogs' abiliity to coexist appropriately around other dogs and people. Becuase my companions are Dobermans, a breed many people are inherently afraid of, I am particularly careful to make sure my dogs represent the breed in a positive manner.

What I am pointing out to you is the absurdity of getting all pissed off when you happen upon a dog that is exhibiting perfect manners (by totally ingoring you). And what I am suggesting to you is that, just because you had a bad experience with a dog on a trail doesn't mean we should ban all dogs on trails. Following this twisted logic, we should ban all people on trials, since folks here often complain about human behavior on the trail.

The is simply more than enough room on the trail for people and their dogs, so long as everyone acts responsibly.”

“Thanks for the clarification, Dunadan. Lizs has a point in that it has been my experience that there are a good number of people who really do not have a clue as to their dog's behavior. I don't think it is anywhere near the 98 percent number she suggests, but there are enough of these people out there that I no longer take my dogs to the neighborhood dog park, becuase some folks do bring dogs that are way to aggressive or that lack any sort of savvy in relation to interactions with other canines. I was once even urinated on by a greyhound who apparently mistook me for a tree. lol!

But on the trail, I have never had a problem, meaning dogs that I have encountered on the trail have never mugged me for food, jumped up on me, acted aggressively toward me, or in any other way hampered me in my enjoyment of the woods (I will admit the sound of a dog bark doesn't bother me). Maybe I just need to get out more.”

“I never see dogs on the trail here. They either aren't allowed or it's too hot plus we got rattlers. You have to snakeproof your dog if you want to take it hiking.

Bacpac, you should come to Arizona”

“I take that back, I have seen em out in the Superstitions, but I usually don't hike there. Too close to the city (adjacent to Phoenix). Where I usually hike I'm lucky if I run into another person, much less a dog.”

“Here's my very first TT post..it was in the question section under "What are your tips for taking your dog with you on a hike?"

"Bring dog treats, and when the dog is loose, frequently call him back to you and then reward him with a treat. Soon this'll guarantee he'll come to you when called...so you can keep him away (and safe) from the trail-selfish dog-hateing pinheads like the ones on this message board."
-Buddur
11/12/00

There's still lots of you pinheads out there!”

“I have only encountered dogs twice on the trails. Both incidences were negative. Therefore I have a knee-jerk reaction when it comes to this subject. However, I do feel that if the trail and laws allow it, you should have the right to take your dog with you, if you are respecting others.
It is my general feeling that dogs ruin, or alter negatively, the hiking experience.
It might be refreshing to meet you and your dogs on the trail, BobK.”

“Dogs are like kids, they are a direct reflection on the parent/master. A$$hole dogs are usually owned by a$$hole owners. Ever make the connection between a barky dog and the fact that it?s owner yells at them? Having hiked with Budder the Wonder Dog I can say there are dogs who belong on the trail. It?s the people who take Fido the Uncontrolled House Dog on the trail that are the real problem.”

“wanderer, my recent encounter certainly wasn't because of crowded trails in a populous Eastern area. I was one of, as it turned out, 2 persons on about 5 miles of trail in a 5,000 acre federal wilderness, in the midst of a few million acres of sparsely populated northern forest. It's a two-hour drive south to reach a town of more than 8,000. Having parked at the other trail head, the other person assumed he was alone (he told me he had never run into another person on this trail, though I had both times I was there). He had no leash with him, let alone in use on his dog. He never apologized for his dog's behavior. Manners and common sense are not only for the popular trails.”

“BobK,
That's what I tell my friends who want to bring their dogs with us backpacking. "Leave It" adn "Come", or stay home.”

“I'm still stinging from wanderer's 'Vermont White Trail' slap in the face. I'll post more when I calm down.”

“Pekka, that sucks that you had such an aggressive dog encounter. That owner should never have let such a poorly socialized (or just plain whacko) dog off leash. I would be quite ill if such a thing happened to me!

If dogs are legislated off of our trails, my guess is that it would start in California like everything else. There are a some very popular trails around here, like the Panther Creek Falls Trail in Rabun County, that reportedly have a problem with the number of day hikers with dogs. In one trip report a person claimed to have counted over 54 dogs, allegedly half off leash. The percentages would indicate a problem waiting to happen with this many unleashed dogs on one trail at one time.

My fear is that canine trail overuse and abuse of leash laws will result in severe restrictions placed on dogs on trails. If dog owners don't wise up, restrictions or bans will surely follow.

Buddur, you advise on reinforcing a solid recall is excellent, although calling everyone a pinhead might dilute the strength of your message somewhat. ;-)”

“Well, My kids are not like dogs.
They are quite handsome!

Also, kids cannot be trained like dogs.
Many people who treat their kids like dogs, or worse, are usually the ones who are estranged from their kids.

Had to say it!

Kids are not a blank sheet of paper to be manipulated into anything one wants.
They are born who they are.

Geeez, we had it out on this one before!”