A**HOLES W/DOGS

“I'd read about a successful dog trainer who gave his dogs bites on the top of the muzzle - just like a mother dog does with her pups. I was wondering if the guy really was abusive until I read this"

"Police reported Lady's left front paw was bloody from a bite."

Yikes!”

“Where's Micah when you need him?”

“I don't know if its always the owners fault, like Lips says - but most of the time it is the owner's fault or a previous owener's fault.

It reminds me of something I read in a ver entertaining dog book.

Basically it described how puppies should be prevented from misbehaving. It said that if your puppy goes on the carpet it's fine to roll up a newspaper and punish, so long as you are hitting yourself over the head for not supervising the pup better on the carpet.”

“ped, it's not always the owners fault. usually it is, but not always.

breeding has an undeniable factor on temperment as well.”

“BUT, you can't blame an animal for it's natural temperment.

Of course if you bought a pre-owned pet, it may come with problems from the past owner. And yes, hit yourself over the head for not properly housebreaking the dog. Hitting a dog with a newspaper or putting their nose in feces does not work and it's cruel. There are some breeds of dogs that are very hard to housebreak if near impossible and if a person does their homework, they will realize this and take the appropriate action or not buy that breed of dog.
last edited: 12/15/04 5:18:08 PM”

“http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/articles/15296771?source=PA
Teen kills 'friend' for sitting in dog's favorite chair!”

“putting their nose in feces does not work and it's cruel

I have heard this said so many times. Do you ever notice how "everyone" says this, but no one ever tells what does work?????? I seem to remember that working quite well with the dogs my parents had when I was a kid.

May I offer suggestions as to what has worked quite well with me and my dog? As soon as I got the dog, I would always take her out and say "This is a good spot". I would try to coincide it with when she was going. I think the term I am looking for is a "Pavlovian response". No every time I say this, it prompts her to look for a spot. She also learned very quickly that when she did something wrong, I was say, with a bit of a growl BAAAADDDDDDD!!!!. My mother says it makes her want to go cower in the corner!!!

When she has had accidents, I get her in the room where it happened, and ask her what is this and point, then growl BAAAADDDDDDD!!! at her. Bear in mind that I do not call her into the room, as she comes happily to me when I call. I find her in the room or leash her and bring her there. There is something wrong to call the dog to you and give it hell, for what it thinks was obeying your command to come.”

“How can it be cruel? I never heard anyone say it.

Putting the dogs nose in it, saying NO very loudly, hitting the dog with a rolled up newspaper, and taking them outside is very effective. About four times is all it takes.”

“Another tip is to put them on a one foot long leash at night. Dogs don't like to deficate or urinate in their bedding areas. Take them outside after about five hours.”

“The thing is to catch animals in the act. They really don't understand a correction after the fact. The dog is thinking, "I've been bad, there's brown stuff on the ground and I'm looking at it, quietly and attentively, what's so bad about that. It's so unfair."

As for biting the dog???? It's like spanking your kid for hitting, isn't it?”

“I just about went crazy with Honey during her house training. It's all about behavior conditioning. A puppy should be taken out every 30 minutes and any time they mess. I had to take Honey out every 15 minutes but she finally caught on.”

“I gotta agree w/dhutch,,you have to catch'em in the act. I crate trained, Jezebel, and within a week or so she was house broken. The trick I think is to never let leave your sight until you think you have them house broken. Act number 1 was hard to see coming but when it was time for number 2 she would start sniffin around in circles while her tail would start pumping up and down like some old water pump handle.”

“crate training is an invaluable tool that will help with potty training.

putting a dogs face in/next to it's poo and yelling NO is not only ineffective, but can lead to worse problems.

probably the most important tool is PRAISE. when puppy does go outside give mucho praise.
make your puppy want to go outside.”

“Ditto the crate training.”

“I believe punishing an animal for crapping/pissing in the house only causes the animal to think crapping & pissing is wrong. Especially if done well after the act.”

“Sacco is right, crate training is one effective way. You feed the puppy, then let them outside the house soon afterwards when they have to pee and poop. Feed them in the morning and at night and do this procedure both times. It's a hit and miss situation, and takes time to work and the pups will make mistakes and should not be punished for it.

Another way is to keep them in a pen with their food and bed, but put puppy pads down around the area, so the only place they can go is on the pads.

After a while, weeks?, you start to take a pad away, then another, until they are left with one pad to go on if you are teaching the dog to be pad trained. The pads have a scent that attracts the dog to go on it too. Then the dog will go on just the one pad.

Believe me, the dog does not understand why it's face is being pushed in poop. If your parents wanted you to eat, and you were a poor eater as a child and they put your face in your food, would you undertand what they wanted of you. I would just think they hate me.”

“I put my own face in my food.....thank you very much.”

“putting a dogs face in/next to it's poo and yelling NO is not only ineffective, but can lead to worse problems.

What worse problems???? And how can it lead to that? Not that I entirely disagree with you, but I would like to see the statement justified.


I gotta second, or is third or fourth, the crate training. A dog doesn't like to mess in it's bed. Never had an accident at night in the crate. Could always hear the whining, she'd wake me up. I'd make her speak (bark) to have me let her outside to go. I didn't want her to learn to whine to go out.

The thing is to catch animals in the act. They really don't understand a correction after the fact. The dog is thinking, "I've been bad, there's brown stuff on the ground and I'm looking at it, quietly and attentively, what's so bad about that. It's so unfair."

I don't exactly agree with this. And I guess it depends on the dog. My dog acts a little "guilty" when she has gotten into the garbage, or done her business inside, or laid on the bed (She sheds like crazy, so she has her own bed). She's just like a guilt ridden child, waiting for "Dad" to find out. Don't get me wrong, the primary way to train the dog is to catch them in the act.”

“monkeyboy, about the garbage, if you have something in there that smells good, you can't expect the dog to have the will power to not go into it. It's only natural on their part to seek out what smells good or go to a place where they may have found interesting tid bits before.”

“is acceptable for some breeds...not all. Pack dogs are acceptable. Poodles aren't real dogs and therefore that does not apply. In pack situations, the dominant male (alpha) will bite the ears of the other dogs to get them to submit. I have done that with Khatru and it works. When we wrestle, he tries for my ear, but I never let him get it, and when he becomes too rough, I grab him and lay on top of him and bite his ear and make him submit, then I make him lye on his back so that I can rub his tummy. This way, he knows that submission is not a bad thing.

Disciplining...never use a dogs name when disiplining them. use the words like bad dog. Keep the name for strictly good things and praising or just conversations.

If your really interested in dogs...on National Geographic channel. there is a show called "the dog whisperer". It is VERY good and I've learned alot about how to train Khatru from that show.”

“Pretty much, I kinda blame myself if I leave the garbage compartment door open. But I still reinforce to Suzy that she is wrong for dumping it over and spreading it all over the place.”

“putting a dogs face in/next to it's poo and yelling NO is not only ineffective, but can lead to worse problems.

What worse problems???? And how can it lead to that? Not that I entirely disagree with you, but I would like to see the statement justified



what is more likey to happen, is that your dog associates feces/urine with you being very angry.

so in the future your dog
1] may not want to go around you at all (even outside if you're nearby)
2] when inside - will try try to go in a corner or under a table to hide it from you.

the thing to remember is that the dog will associate the smell of poo or pee with making you angry - not it's act of going inside.

also, yes monkeyboy timing is critical for conditioning. the most efficient timing for conditioning is about 1 second. 1 second!
after 30 seconds there will be ZERO connection between the act and a reward.
remember - conditioning is unconscious.

lastly- your dog is not feeling guilt when it acts like that.
your dog knows that you get angry when garbage is strewn around - like it's poo, your "knows" that you hate garbage, and you punish suzy when there's garbage around (no, she doesn't connect the fact that she did it hours ago)

the behavior that she is displaying is not guilt, it's submissiveness

two very different things.
last edited: 12/17/04 8:16:11 AM”

“I came home today to a sight I have never seen. Honey actually got into the trash! She's never done this! There was some cream cheese wrappers that were shredded all over the place. I took her over to the mess and scolded her for all I was worth. She sat there looking so guilty and squinting her eyes at me. I took her over to the corner and sat her there in time out. She was crushed...

Beating her ass could not have been a worse punishment for her.”

“nigal, as hard as it is, try to remember that scolding her for doing things she did hours ago is useless.

when you were yelling at her, she was not feeling guilty- as hard as it may seem - she was acting submissive b/c you were yelling at her.”

“That's why I took her over to the mess. I bet I could put a whole brick of cream cheese in the middle of the floor now and she wouldn't touch it. She's a very smart doggy. :)”

“i'm sure she is - i've never met a golden that wasn't - but she still has absolutely no idea that you don't want her pawing through the garbage.

all that she knows is that when garbage is around she should act submissive around you.”

“Nigal likes to beat beeotches.


Can anyone tell me when purchasing a dog does gender play a role? Do men pick male/female dogs for particular reasons or is it all about personality?”

“I get females because I find them to be calmer and gentler. Plus I like to rub my doggy's belly and I don't want no "Red Rocket" action going on in my house. The only wiener in my house belongs to me.”

“The only wiener in my house belongs to me.”
Nigal
10:59:48 AM
12/17/04

So it's a domination/leader of the pack thang?”

“What do I have to do to get Nigal to bite these days???????”

“Sacco, Thanx for qualifying your statements. It's just a pet peeve with me when some one says it will make it worse, but not tell you how.

I gotta tell you that we will probably disagree with the other things though:

lastly- your dog is not feeling guilt when it acts like that.
your dog knows that you get angry when garbage is strewn around - like it's poo, your "knows" that you hate garbage, and you punish suzy when there's garbage around (no, she doesn't connect the fact that she did it hours ago)

the behavior that she is displaying is not guilt, it's submissiveness

two very different things.

Suzy has been around with garbage all around that she didn't do, and thought nothing of it, same with messing in the house. My kids saw the other dog (My oldest son's) do it, and left it there til I got home (Thanx kids) and told me about it. Suzy had no ill reaction at all.

I am not saying that all dogs are able to discern things so, but many are, many are not and there are varying degrees.

You seem fairly well educated on many issues with dogs and training, where from?

This reminds me of something that happened years ago at my parents house. My parents had a dog , Sheba. If she ever got out the door, she was gone and made merry sport of you trying to catch her. She was a major PITA, and our parents would make every excuse for the dog. She would bolt thru the door, thru you and be gone, and we'd be sent on our way forever trying to get her, when my parents couldn't be bothered to train the dog they took responsibilty for. (No this dog was not gotten for us kids). We absolutely hated this BS.

Finally, one day, my brother, a year younger than me, and much more assertive, (some would say rebellious, but that's another story) was ordered to go get the dog he let out. He said no way, this is ridiculous, to my parents!!! He read them the riot act (this was in his late teens) about having a dog and absolutely no control over it and rightly blamed them and refused to go get her. He said she'd be home after a while when she was hungry, and he'd deal with it then.

And did he ever. I still can't quite figure out how he did what he did. But a week later, Sheba was lying unleashed in an open garage and not running off. Dad, a little humbled, allowed that my brother did a great job training her inside of a week. I never found out how, but I gotta say I was impressed. I think I'll ask him how next time I see him. He did in a week, what my parents should have done years ago.”

“my g/f (of 7 years) and i raise bulldogs.

FWIW, bulldogs are often considered the most stubborn and difficult breed to train.

http://www.aldebaranbulldogs.com/

we also compete in AKC obedience events with our bulldogs, and have earned titles.

two of our bullies are also liscenced therapy dogs.

we also teach obedience (or rather, we give classes to owners on how to train their dogs.)

http://www.aldebaranbulldogs.com/Obedience.htm



i can understand suzy not reacting to the garbage she didn't do.

dogs have an amazing ability to read our body language. they are constantly scanning us for clues. the same way they can often tell someone who is afraid, they can tell when someone is angry almost instantly.

so suzy knew your kids weren't mad at her, and she knew instantly that you weren't angry with her either.

if you would have acted very angry with her she would have appeared "guilty" (submissive) again.

i hope this makes sense.
it's a lot easier in person.
if you do a bit of googling on dog behavior pages i'm sure you'll find some that take the time to explain the difference between guilt and submission much better and more detailed than me.”

“your story of sheba is a pretty common one MB.

well the first half anyway. the second part about your brother knowing how to train her so quickly is uncommon, but great of him.

IMO teaching your dog to come when called is hands down the most important thing you can do for your dog.”

“My Chihuahua is my wild child. I never taught her anything except to come when called as Sacco said, it's very important. My little Capri does nothing wrong. She's too small to get into garbage.

monkeyboy, your dog was just separating what should go into recylables, lol:)

I think every dog sold should come with a book on dog care and training, because without it, everyone is clueless. Like people that buy Chihuahuas are clueless to the fact that they have to hand the pup around to a lot of people to socialize the pup or else it will most likely not let anyone outside of the family touch it when it's older. It's something that is particular to this breed of dog.

Does everyone know that most pets stores get their dogs from puppymills, and you should not buy your dog from one? You need to find the breeds association for your state and inquire there as to who are reputable breeders, and then you still have to beware.

Every Chihuahua breeder tells the new owner their dog will be small, then it grows to be bigger than the standard and you have no rights to bring the dog back unless it's really huge and then you have to sue in court.

My friend got screwed twice. Once Chihuahua she bought does not even look like one; it has to be a mix, but the breeder gave her papers that she can register her, then the other one, I didn't have the heart to tell her, looks like a dascund. He is so long, with a long nose, only his ears are up straight.

You need to see the parents of the dog to see what it will look like and to see the mom's temperment, plus you want to see how they are raised. My friend made the mistake of meeting the breeder half way to get the pup, and never saw the parents, because the breeder lived far away. That's a scam breeders will use to not let you in their home and see they have a ton of pups or dirty conditions and weird looking sires and dams.”

“Bulldogs!!! Wow, how do they ever stuff their tongue back into their mouth!!! They are so cute!

I thought you had something to do with dog training, by the sounds of your advice. I too was involved in dog training, for 4 years, the last 3, I was assisting the lead trainer. And as you say, it is training the owner to train the dog.

Time for my bragging. I have shown Suzy 8 times. Her record is 5 wins, and 2 best in shows. This is at local AKC sanctioned matches. Local, ha, I had to travel all over the state of Maine for these. Seemed there were only 4 yearly matches we were able to attend and compete.

I remember when she was up for the last leg of her title. The final part of the competition, all the dogs were walked across the ring, sat and left for 2 minutes. All the other dogs went crazy. One by one they would get up and leave, or go to their owner. I think there were 8 other dogs. At the end of the longest two minutes I have ever experienced, it is just Suzy and I at opposite ends of the ring, she looking at me, and I looking over her head. I did not want to give her any suttle signals or anything. When the judge told me to return to my dog, I knew I had it licked when I headed to her and she didn't bolt towards me. Who can figure what got into all those dogs, but Suzy stayed put. Not only did she get the final leg of her title, but she obviously took first place in the process to boot.
last edited: 12/18/04 4:51:12 AM”

“dogs have an amazing ability to read our body language. they are constantly scanning us for clues. the same way they can often tell someone who is afraid, they can tell when someone is angry almost instantly.

so suzy knew your kids weren't mad at her, and she knew instantly that you weren't angry with her either.

if you would have acted very angry with her she would have appeared "guilty" (submissive) again.

Perhaps, I am not relating the entire story well here. When Suzy meets us at the door, I have not seen any thing yet, and she is already acting guilty. Maybe it's because I can read her like a book, but she's a very open book. Jada, my son's dog was a very different case.

I have found her to be very trainable. When we go to my parents, for example, I'll take her to my Mom's flower gardens and walk her on leash near then, and show her the border, and repeatedly tell her no. Then in the yard and let her off leash. Pretty much setting a virtual fence for her.

What kills me is what my brother can do with dogs. He has never done any formal dog training. He had two dogs, a black lab and a German shepard. (They were broken into and robbed, so they got the two dogs, both recently passed on). They were big dogs, barked loud and crazy until he told them to be quiet, and never, I mean never, got into a garbage can, or compost can that was always left out in easy reach for them. My titled, second place for the year for the east coast dog occasionally gets into the garbage........ grrrr...... LOL”

“Remember this post by willk?? (It's back on page 6, from 2002).

Dogs don't belong on the AT or any hiking trail. There's sort of a regression that takes place w/ dog and owner when in the wild. A couple years ago, I was hiking to a hotspring when a couple allowed their dog to intimidate me at a trail junction just to prove a point. These jerks were also camping "next" to the hotspring.

I got my revenge by hiking out the next day, opening their car, taking a dump on the drivers seat and pissing on the passenger seat. I wanted to make their experience as nice as mine. I actually have a friend who shot and killed two charging dobermans at a state park. The owners were pissed but had no recourse; he only got a $50 fine for shooting a gun at the park.

willk sure got everybody all worked up!

But then, a TT regular sometimes known as steve hiker had a remarkably similar experience HERE in 2004! Ooooo! Eerie!

And, I'll be damned... willk made a guest appearance at this site just yesterday with the exact same story! 'Course he goes by the username UGH usually, but for some strange reason, decided to post as a guy we know as willk.

Lazy ass! At least change some words around.

And all the boasting about living out west in one of the five largest states? Uh, yeah, steve, Louisiana is waaaaay out west with lostso rugged mountains!

mooooHAHAHA!
last edited: 4/28/05 9:30:47 AM”

“Well .. .

You've been around so infrequently as of late that I had begun to wonder how you were spending your time. . .



I guess I know now.



Guy Noir . . .private eye.”

“That's some fancy detective work there Mister Kleetn. I never liked that Steve Hiker.”

“Actually, the Administrator of NWHikers figured it all out... his post is a few below willk's.

Me? I have been hiding out in Dick Cheney's bunker. Those Bush twins put on a mean puppet show!”

“Mmmmm puppets.”

“Quiet Phaedrus, or I'll take another dump on your front seat.”

“Youuuu suuuuuck!”

“By the way, My dog is the shiznit, yo.

Jack”

“Nice dog!

I personaly cant wait till my dog is calm enough for me to trust her on a trail over night.”

“Fine looking canine, P-dawg.

I bet his breath is better than yours.”

“Well, DUH. Dog breath is the natural alternative to prozac.”

“LOL, maybe your dogs breath not mine. Poor dog can only eat certian things so she is on a special diet and her breath is nasty!!!!”

“I hit the 2nd link posted in the original post and it was of a post on another site by Steve Hiker and written underneith it says "Registered Troll" lol

If I remember correctly, he was always better than everyone else. In his head.”

“Reminds me of a scene from the Clint Eastwood movie, "Every Which Way But Loose".”