With friends like these...

“surprised:ö

cyclops:Ů

evil smile:Ŭ”

“really surprised:Ö”

“Would that they could:

The terrorists' focus, and ability to stay on point, were equal to previous posts in THIS thread... 5,400+ people would still be alive.”

“obi -

I think you've hit gold.

We should have a Marshall plan to buy all terrorists computers and internet access.”

“These Islam Fundies are right......in a weird sort of way.

The passage of time, modern communication, science, and general human progress have "conspired" to water-down or liberalize most religions.

To them these forces will "destroy" Islam.
They fear modernity and would like to turn back the clock to the "glory days" of Islam.

Yeah, that was about 1,000 years ago when Islam was spread across southern Asia and into Africa.
The problem is that horrendous means such as murder/death/kill and rape and torture were employed in the "glory days".

While most conservatives, here and elsewhere, would like to turn back the clock 50 to 100 years, these twinkies would like to turn back the clock 1,000 years!?!?!?!?!?!?”

“Hey, how's about taking all those billions we are going to spend hunting down and destroying this shadowy enemy and buying up some land, building houses, schools and hospitals and putting the Palestinians there? Isn't what they want a homeland?”

“They have a homeland and it's currently occupied by Israelies. Even when they were given some land back as a twisted sort of comprimise, Israel continues to allow Jewish settlers to occupy and steal more of it. If they can give the Sinai Peninsula back to Egypt and abandon settlements there, they can do the same for parts of Palestine. How about we spend those billions on resettling the Jewish Settlers somewhere else? Now there's nothing we can do about Israel itself as it's a reality, however we could stop supporting them as long as they continue with their repressive policies against the Palestinians.”

“Shhhhhhhh Gear Slut . . .if you start making sense, THEY'LL come after you to.

Tell you what though . . . If, in 1948, Great Britain had given my country to another group of folks, I'd be kinda upset too. And, if, as you say, I had been promised some land as a comprimise and the invaders, sponsored by the great western democracies, continued to build settlements on my land, force me off of it and kill my children . . .I guess i'd be upset to.

But none of that is happening to me. Not me personally. It is easier and more patriotic to identify with only one, simply defined, side of the equation rather than look deeper.

It is easier, more comforting, and certainly more patriotic to beat our breasts, cry "why U.S." than to try to look deeper.”

“Let me be clear. We need to systematically route out the terrorist organizations (including paramilitary left wing and right wing groups here in the US) and take them apart: Apart militarily, superstructure, funding, land etc. We must deprive them of the air they breathe, the food they eat, of their weapons etc.

HOWEVER, we should also seek to rectify the gross injustices of the Israeli/Palestien question. I, personally, think we should use the huge huge amount of arms and financing that we provide to Israel as the ultimate bargining chip. Either they agree to the Palestian homeland, and withdraw their settlements, or we withdraw our support. If that does not work, than we begin a dollar for dollar funding for infrastructure in the Palestian living areas that do exist.”

“> Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 16:01:36-0400
> > > From: William Beeman, William_Beeman@brown.edu
Here is an op-ed piece of mine on the bombing that may be of interest.
William O. Beeman, Brown University
> > > >
The United States risks a severe miscalculation in dealing with the
destruction of the World Trade Center and the attack on the Pentagon on
Tuesday. This event is not an isolated instance of violence. This is not an
"act of war." It is one symptom of a cancer that threatens to metastasize.
The root cause is not terrorist activity, as has been widely stated. It is
the relationship between the United States and the Islamic world.

Until this central cancerous problem is treated, Americans will never be
free from fear. Merely locating and hunting down a single "guilty party" in
this case will not stop future violence: such an action will not destroy
the organization of terrorist cells already established throughout the
world. Of greater importance, it will do nothing to alleviate the residual
enmity against America that will remain at large in the world, continuing to
motivate violence. The perpetrators of the original attack on the World
Trade Center in 1993 were caught and convicted. This did not stop the
attack on Tuesday. The chief suspect is the Saudi Arabian Osama bin Laden or
his surrogates. He has been mischaracterized as an anti-American terrorist.
He should rather be thought of as someone who would do anything to protect
Islam. Bin Laden began his career fighting the Soviet occupation of
Afghanistan in 1979 when he was 22 years old. He has not only resisted the
Soviets but also the Serbians in Yugoslavia. His anger was directed against
the United States primarily because of the U.S. presence in the Gulf Region,
more particularly Saudi Arabia itself, the site of the most sacred Islamic
religious sites.
> > > >
According to bin Laden, during the Gulf War America co-opted the rulers of
Saudi Arabia to establish a military presence in order to kill Muslims in
Iraq. In a religious decree issued in 1998, he gave religious legitimacy to
attacks on Americans in order to stop the United States from "occupying the
lands of Islam in the holiest of places". His decree also extends to
Jerusalem, the location of the second most sacred Muslim site, the al-Aqsa
Mosque. The depth of his historical vision is clear when, in his decree, he
characterizes Americans as "crusaders" harkening back to the Medieval
Crusades in which the Holy Lands, then occupied by Muslims, were captured by
European Christians.
> > > >
He will not cease his opposition until the United States leaves the region.
Paradoxically, his strategy for convincing the United States to do so seems
drawn from the American foreign policy playbook. When the United States
disapproves of the behavior of another nation, it "turns up the heat" on
that nation through embargoes, economic sanctions or withdrawal of
diplomatic representation. In the case of Iraq following the Gulf war,
America employed military action, resulting in the loss of civilian life.
The State Department has theorized that if the people of a rogue nation
experience enough suffering, they will overthrow their rulers, or compel
them to adopt more sensible behavior. The terrorist actions in New York and
Washington are a clear and ironic implementation of this strategy against
the United States.
> > > >
Bin Laden takes no credit for actions emanating from his training camps in
Afghanistan. He has no desire for self-aggrandizement. A true ideologue, he
believes that his mission is sacred, and he wants only to see clear results.
For this reason, the structure of his organization is essentially
tribalcellular in modern political terms. His followers are as fervent and
intense in their belief as he is. They carry out their actions because they
believe in the rightness of their cause, not because of bin Laden's orders
or approval. Groups are trained in Afghanistan, and then establish their
own centers in places as far-flung as Canada, Africa and Europe.

Each cell is technologically sophisticated, and may have a different set of
motivations for attacking the United States. Palestinian members of his
group see Americans as supporters of Israel in the current conflict between
the two nations. In the Palestinian view, Ariel Sharon's ascendancy to
leadership of Israel has triggered a new era, with U.S. government officials
failing to pressure the Israeli government to end violence against
Palestinians. Palestinian cell members will not cease their opposition
until the United States changes its relationship with the Israeli state.

The Mujaheddin fighters in Lebanon also direct their hostility against
Israel and the United States. They operate against the Maronite Christian
community in their own country, who were supported by the French from World
War I until the end of World War II. And they will not cease their
operations until the region is firmly in Islamic hands. Above all, Americans
need to remember that the rest of the world has an absolute right to
self-determination that is as defensible as our own.
A despicable act of mayhem such as those committed in New York and
Washington is a measure of the revulsion that others feel at our actions
that seemingly limit those rights. If we perpetuate a cycle of hate and
revenge, this conflict will escalate into a war that our great-grandchildren
will be fighting.
> > > > ________________
> > > >
William O. Beeman teaches anthropology at Brown University in Providence,
Rhode Island. A specialist on Middle East Culture, he has written
extensively on fundamentalism and terrorism. He has worked for the pastn
four years in Tajikistan, where he has been able to monitor developments in
Afghanistan.
> > > >
Copyright 2001 William O. Beeman. This article may be distributed for any
non-commercial purposes”

“Sorry for the long post. Just thought it an interesting viewpoint given all the trigger happy talk going around.”

“I have mixed feelings about Beeman's article. IMO: Its valuable in one way, but seriously flawed in two ways.

It is valuable in that it points to the problems in way that the US has treated the Islamic world. Much of what it says about US ignorance of the Islamic world is true.

However, unless we plan on caving completely to all of the demands Bin Laden and others make (inlcuding the new demands that follow our capitulation), responding to terrorism by trying hard to please the terrorists will only invite more terror.

Secondly: Its tremendously ahistorical to imply that the US invented the idea of trying to "punish" other nations in order to get them to stop their behavior.”

“Thanks Rosey. Interesting reading.

My concern with my own "plan" for the mideast, that is, ensuring the creation of a stable Palestien homeland, is that it would not be "enough" to satisfy the Islamic purists.

I think it is completely unreasonable to try to satisy the Islamic purists. No country can exist in isolation from, or untainted by, other cultures and religion. Let alone a region that encompasses all the islamic inhabitants in the middle east.

I understand the need for a "land" for Palestienians. I cannot understand, or agree with, the need for religious purity across a broad section of the world. In this day and age it would be imppossible.

If people like Bin Laden are going to wage terrorist activities in perpetuity to preserve religious purity, than we will have t wage anti-terrorist campaigns in perpetuity.”

“I met a motorcycle rider from Israel last year. He came here to tour parts of the U.S. on motorcycle. He loved being here, because Israel is so small, and it's not easy to cross borders. Where in the U.S., you can travel forever, and there are no borders.

He said that the fight is over a very small piece of land. The land is considered holy land, so the Israelis won't give it up. If the Israelis give up this land, I would be glad to offer them land in return. I have two parking spots in my parking lot :{}”

“lee-
I know there are right-wing para-military groups in th U.S., but "left-wing para-military groups"???

These guys see any modernization as "destruction" of Islam.
This leaves us all --non muslim states---in a tough position.”

“I think the world has seen the results of appeasement all too clearly last century.

Y?all know there is a tremendous amount of oil just to the northwest of Afghanistan, on the eastern shore of the Caspian Sea, in the former Soviet Republics, don?t ya?

If we were to cave now, all the would-be bin Ladens of the world would start blowing us (and the rest of civilization) up until their agendas were met.

These are difficult times with no easy answers.

God grant our leaders wisdom.”

“Another way of saying this is, yes the US has failed to really respond appropriately to the legitimate grievances of the third world in general and the Islamic world in particular.
The problem is that responding to terror by backing down or caving in only compounds the problem:

Example: Reagan never should have shelled the Shouf mountains in Lebanon and intervened against the Moslems in the Lebanese Civil War. However, the fact that the US stopped their intervention and packed up and left Lebanon after the Marine barracks was blown up taught terrorists a lesson: Hit America hard and they go away.

The same thing happened with US intervention in Somalia: The US became too involved in the conflict: some US service men were killed and dragged through the streets and the US packed up and left. Lesson learned by terrorists: take American blood and the US backs down.

Similar things happened in the hostage situation with Iran. The US overthrew a democratically elected leader and installed the Shah. The US supported his brutal and repressive regime. The US ignored peaceful protests. But after the revolution, when Iranian radicals took US hostages, the Reagan administration negotiated with them and traded arms with them: lesson learned, if you want the US to listen even the hard-liners will go along if you threaten innocent lives.

Now is not the time to show that the US policy is favorably influenced by atrocity. It would be foolish to do so.

Morally, just because we are an imperfect nation with an imperfect foreign policy (and there has never been a perfect nation or a perfect foreign policy) we do not surrender or moral right to defend ourselves, or to retaliate when it is in our interests to do so.”

“Tom T. --

LOL. I threw in "left-wing" paramiliatary groups because I didn't want to get into a whole "right to bare arms"(wait, that's "bear" arms isn't it), right to assemble "militas" issue.

Basically . . .If there armed wackos in the woods of the US they should be rounded up.”

“Lee, "if" there are armed wackos in the woods of the U.S.? I'm here to tell you that there's no "if" about it. Come visit MT somtime. Anybody remember Ted?”

“Well, it also can't be counted on that we'll be getting the straight story on anything.

http://asia.cnn.com/2001/US/09/17/ret.us.secret.war/”

“Ted Nugent?”

“LOL!”

“Idle question --

Anyone have a personal relationship with RUFFIAN??

He checked in right after the planes hit to say that he had a meeting at the pentagon. Hasn't been back since.

Wasn't he in the armed forces for many years and now works as a counter-terrorism consultant to the army??

Or . . .at least that's what he was posing as on this forum?? (hence my question, does anyone actually know this guy??)

If his story IS straight . . . wonder what HE'S doing right now?!!”

“"Basically . . .If there armed wackos in the woods of the US they should be rounded up. "

Most certainly if they have violated any laws, but to round up any armed whacko would be discrimination and racial profiling.”

“"Lesson learned by terrorists: take American blood and the US backs down." - PedXing

Lesson NOT learned by US Government foreign policy: Get out of the middle east and stop supporting the terrorist country of Israel.

roseymonster's post on Beeman is what I've been preaching here the past week.”