Non-action and passiveness!

“That was (William) Tecumseh (Sherman), Gen U.S. Army.

All this bitchin' about "non-action" only to serves to shake a weak finger at those who warn against retaliatory atrocities.

Since when can we NOT tell our government what to do?
It is our right and duty as Americans to keep our public servants aware of which way is up.”

“I'm not saying we obliterate, nuke 'em, or anything like that. And in my post I'm the one who listed Tecumseh's march and the A-bomb as atrocities, and even possibly war crimes.

But there's definately some medium ground between over-kill, and being so overly careful to avoid collateral damage and homeland backlash due to media, that you don't finish the job and jeapordize soldiers and/or jeopardize the future - basically screwing up - ie Vietnam & the Gulf War.

You can point to all the persons who now say they don't like the Taliban, and accept them in open arms, and in our camps to make sure nothing happens to them. Are they telling the truth? Or were they some of the people who were dancing in the streets when news of the towers' destruction arrived. Do we put our soldiers and missions in jeapordy by believing all those who now claim to be refugees...the same way we jeopordized ourselves believing these 19 terrorists were friendly visitors and citizens of the US, working side by side with us, eating at our restaraunts, and going to our gyms, until their call to action came and they wiped out 7,000 innocent persons.

In the last 10 years of "peace" we've lost to terrorism (linked to bin laden's networks) over 1/2 the number of persons as the Soviet Union lost soldiers in their 10 year war with Afghanistan.

We are at war...I hope we do it right, and finally end it. I hope to be proven wrong, that peace, love, granola and a song will win these folks over. There's just no precedent for it's success.”

“Well said, Wally-man.”

“What? I've read several times the USSR lost over 100,000 troops in Afghanistan. Not to gripe, but but many people have we lost to terrorism in the past decade? 8,000?”

“I had a brain fart...”

“Rosey,
Esimates of Soviet losses are said to be around 15,000. Of course, no one really ever know the exact number.”

“I've read much higher. Will find a source and get back to you...”

“Right on Ravenseer. Who knows how many other families are now left without a source of income. How many mothers will have to leave their children with babysitters who are virtual strangers while they try and seek a job with possibly no working skills? How many people will lose their homes?

Isolating the terrorists and going after them is still called war by the way.”

“I invite everyone here who is against a violent response to terrorism to see the WTC for yourself. To talk to the people who have been affected. To walk around south NY and see all that was lost. Talk to people, who go there everyday, hoping some rescue worker will say we found your brother or husband or father. I promise one such visit will change your life forever.”

“You're absolutely right Ravenseer. No TV set could ever convey what it's really like.

Go to one of the little churches down there that's receiving donations from people & restaraunts to care for the firemen & police who sleep in the pews or just sit for a while and cry, bracing themselves to go back out there.

Gonna go off on a long winded tangent here, but I think it's appropriate for all those who talk about how America has done it's share of terrible things in those countries and how we should now understand the feelings of the people in the region.

America is a corporation, and by the way that is not a dirty word - every country is. Like any corporation, we seek better deals and advantageous relationships in order become more profitable, to stand out above the competition, to keep our employees (our citizens) comfortable and productive and feeling they're in the best place. That makes the corporation run more smoothly, and more profitable. But corporations in America and like America itself also have a responsibilty, yet expect certain incentives to be involved in more charitable causes - in the case of America those causes concern the problems that face other countries, natural or man-made. The US is incredibly charitable, often with little incentive for returns, but certainly not for naught - we hope to forge relationships, create future partners and new markets of opportunity - we seek to expand our corporate interests, and our revenue options, and to maintain a competitive advantage. And when these partnerships do become advantageous to us, we seek to protect those partnerships.

Well, sometimes all this works, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes it backfires when we do to little and abandon a project, and sometimes our competitors get tired of being bested and are negatively affected by the better deals we crafted through our interests and pursuits. And their employees do not fare quite as well as our employees.

But like a good corporation, we don't go into our competition's offices and murder their key staff, violently steal their money, or try to wreck their factories in order to gain those advantages. We play fair, corporate "hard-ball".

My point is: I don't ever, ever want to hear any m'f'er suggest that our policies within the mid-east created Sept 11th, that in some way we maybe deserved this smack in order to wake up to how we're affecting the people by doing this or that, backing Isreal, or whatever.

Absolutely nothing we've ever done deserves what was done to us on Sept 11th. There is no understanding that can be offered. Any one doubt this, as Ravenseer suggests, just go down there.”

“Wall-man,
I respectfully - and totally - disagree with your classification of the A-bomb attacks on Hiroshima and Nagasaki as being "crimes".

100,000 casualties? That's a mere drop in the bucket.

At the time of the attacks, the Allies were amassing the greatest force in the history of humankind in anticipation of an invasion of the Japanese mainland. My dad was there - his ship was seving radar picket duty. Their main purpose was to intercept and absorb the suicide planes - thus protecting the main shipping channels for the ships stockpiling the invasion force on Okinawa. They were anticipating 1,000,000 allied casualties. That's one million, with an "m". The Japanese deaths - both military and civilian - would have climbed into the tens of millions - they were not going down without a fight.

After the war, my dad's LCS-L cruised much of the Jap coastline and Tokyo harbor. They were MUCH MORE prepared for an invasion than the Jerrys ever were at Normandy.

If the Allied plan would have been carried out, D-Day would have been but a footnote - mentioned with the likes of the Anzio invasion.

I'm sickened by this bleeding heart crap about how brutal the bombs were.”

“Gojo:

There is another line of thinking that the Japanese were set to surrender but that the U.S. just wanted the world to know who was number one.”

“Set to surrender, ay?
Then why didn't they surrender?
(they had ample opportunity in the preceding 4-1/2 years).”

“3-1/2 years.”

“Sorry, can't remember all the details and names. Have just read the account, I think in the book "Day One" (can't remember the author" as well as in some other discussions of MAD, arms race, etc.”

“Huh?
/o:”

“I don't think anyone on this or similar TT threads is saying "don't bomb". Some people are saying "bomb the right people." If that being a weenie, then I'm a weenie.

Point of historical interest: my father-in-law was in the OSS in WWII, and worked with a team of Nissai who were in Japan during hostilities. He was to be in the wave before the first wave, his mission with his team of Nissai was to sabotage airplanes and artillary. He'd likely be a goner if they had invaded. They were part of a group of OSS that toured the country and interviewed people, from government heads to villagers.”

“gojo...you may have misunderstood me - 3 long winded posts, so I don't blame ya.

I agree with you. I do think vaporizing 100,000 people like that is horrible - I mean just imagine it, but you won't find a much better case for it than what we faced at the end of WW2.

I was pointing out that the nature of the bombs, like Tecumseh's march to the sea were certainly brutal, and a case could be argued that they were excessive or even criminal. But, I don't buy into those arguments, and think that both were absolutely necessary, to break the will of those who would otherwise continue to fight.

So, we both "respectfully" agree that the bombs were necessary - however, just as I beckon the "bleeding hearts" to come to the WTC devestation, I've read and have seen many accounts of survivors of the A-bombs, and no doubt that was horribly brutal. It's so sad that that measure was required.”

“I think that many of us are making similar points in different ways and some think there is an argument.

If there was ever an argument for justified use of force, we were supplied one on Sept. 11th. The only disagreement seems to be the extent of force, whom to direct it against and what policies should supplement our military response.

I think it is extremely important in a representative democracy that we have such open discussions.

Here is an excellent link discussing the use of force against terrorism.


Wall-Man -
I have only seen the disaster from across the river and am deeply moved. I have spoken to several people who were at the scene that day and I understand just how terrible this act was. Blaming the victim is wrong.”

“Read the book Gojo.”

“I agree Violin. Most of us aren't talking about doing nothing. It's just a difference in what we feel would be appropriate. I think our government is on the right track so far.”

“I don't feel qualified to comment much about WWII and the bombs considering the level of knowledge here, so just consider this as a barely related tidbit, not an opinion.

My dad was in the Pacific in the Navy. He brought back a picture book of what was left of Nagasaki and Hiroshima with about 100 good 8x10 pics. All of the pics were "moving" but the one that showed peoples' shadows burned into the concrete of a bridge railing as they were vaporized haunts me to this day.”

“My dad's crew pulled a dead Jap pilot from the drink and gave him a burial at sea with full military honors.

The images of what would have occured if an invasion of Japan had taken place would have eclipsed any images of what actually did occur.

The LCS-L was developed late in the war to give close-in, heavy fire power to amphibious forces. It could actually run aground like the LCI, LST, etc. "The Fighting Sixbits" - LCS-L 75 (my dad's boat) - would have made a brave and glorious effort to support every wave of the invasion, but likely would have taken enough direct hits to be totally destroyed...”

“gojo, I realize it was commonplace 60 years ago to call those of Japanese ancestry "Japs". Now it just sounds ignorant.”

“geez, kleet.

your preachin' to the choir, here.”

“I don't feel I'm in an argument in the negative sense that it's getting personal or anything like that. I sincerly hope none of you feel that way.

I really appreciate that I have a forum to express my points of view with people whom I share a common interest. Thank you!

That said, given a willing group, I'll still "argue" my point of view in full and in as clear a manner as possible...and I need to hear opposing views. That's how I learn - seeing how any one event could be interpreted 6 different ways by 6 different people, depending on their past and current position in life - and to each person, their perception is reality.

Anyway - writing all this stuff means you have to assume and interpret inflections. This might be a much more rewarding over a pint of Bass.

You're all a good bunch!

And tonight I'm headin' out for 4 days of backpacking!!!”

“Bush plans to announce $295 million in new aid for the Afghan people on top of the $25 million announced over the weekend. This aid is to go to refugees fleeing into neighboring countries as well. He hopes this aid will help to underscore the message that our fight is with the Taliban regime, not the Afghan people.

This is part of an unconventional military strategy called 'effects-based' operations. The idea is to undermine the base of support for terrorism. It demonstrates American generosity and moral superiority and shows bin Laden to be an uncaring @#%*!.

Packages of wheat and meds with American flag emblams work better at undermining terrorism than cruise missiles with the same insignia even if it's easier and quicker to deliver bombs.”

“Ever notice how no one ever pays attention to ya until you pick your nose?”

“Dig Deep Dude”

“Violin - well, I think we agree you need to demonstrate both might and moral responsibility.

I disagree that this will undermine their view of bin laden. He is revered as a hero - not only in Afghanistan but across the middle east, even by those who now, out of fear, claim they don't always approve of his tactics. He is one who gave up vast wealth, comforts and prominence to go underground - literally often dwell underground, to fight for the purity of Islam against the Americans. Americans who try to corrupt their minds, as the devil, with comforts and material things. Taking food from the Americans is like taking the apple from the tree offered by the serpent.

Don't over-estimate the effectiveness of this feeding the refugees aspect.”

“We should also be handing out battery operated radios set to the frequency of VOA to try and get our side of the story out.”

“The literacy rate in many of those countries is very low. That leaves the population much easier to manipulate by a charasmatic leader. Long term, it would be helpful to improve that.”

“"My point is: I don't ever, ever want to hear any m'f'er suggest that our policies within the mid-east created Sept 11th, that in some way we maybe deserved this smack in order to wake up to how we're affecting the people by doing this or that, backing Isreal, or whatever.

Absolutely nothing we've ever done deserves what was done to us on Sept 11th. There is no understanding that can be offered." - WALLMAN

Sorry, but I must disagree with that statement. The USA supports terrorism (Israel) in the eyes of the Arab world. If its bad for Afghanistan to hide terrorists, then its far worse for the USA to cuddle up with Israel.”

“When referring to memembers of the Imperial Japanese Navy, Army, or air forces, I refer to them as Japs. Everyone did, and those that were there still do - even if they later retired from Sony or Mitsubishi.


If I were to do a hike up Mount Fuji, I would refer to the Sherpas (if any were present) as Japanese.

I drive a Japanese truck.

I'm a member of the USS LCS-L(3) 1-130 Association. It's comprised of many of the survivors of the 130 LCSs that saw action, their children, and grandchildren. We say Jap in conversations about the war. It's not a derogatory term. Relax.”

“It's not a derogatory term? You are a riot .”

“FYI, according to Webster Jap is, "short for Japanese: a hostile term." So you're right. Apparently it is not derogatory.”

“I don't care what Webster or the PC popo think or say - "Jap", within the context by which I use it, is not a derogatory term. "I", of course, being the operative word.

Again, relax.”

“I don't care what Webster or the PC popo think or say - "Jap", within the context by which I use it, is not a derogatory term. "I", of course, being the operative word.

Again, relax.”

“Relax don't do it
When you want to to go to it
Relax don't do it
When you want to come
Relax don't do it
When you want to suck it to it

My dear children. Words are not value-neutral. They express concepts and ideas. Words reflect society's standards. If color-phobia is one of its most powerful standards, then emotionally laden racist words easily reinforce and perpetuate stereotypes. Just ask Marge Schott.”

“So is calling the British, Brits, the Australians, Aussies and the Polish, Poles derogatory?”

“what about us yanks?”

“Osama Bin Laden, your time is short;

We'd rather you die, than come to court. Why are you hiding if it was in God's name?
Your just a punk with a turban; a pathetic shame.

I have a question, about your theory and laws; "How come you never die for the cause?"

Is it because you're a coward who counts on others? Well here in America, we stand by our brothers.

As is usual, you failed in your mission; If you expected pure chaos, you can keep on wishin'

Americans are now focused and stronger than ever; Your death has become our next endeavor.

What you tried to kill, doesn't live in our walls;It's not in buildings or shopping malls.

If all of our structures came crashing down;
It would still be there, safe and sound.

Because pride and courage can't be destroyed; Even if the towers leave a deep void.

We'll band together and fill the holes.
We'll bury our dead and bless their souls.

But then our energy will focus on you; And you'll feel the wrath of the Red, White and Blue.

So slither and hide like a snake in the grass; Because America's coming to kick your a**!!!”

“If I were a 43 year old Japanese businessman, and one of my American colleagues referred to me as a "Jap", I would, indeed, be most offended. However, when I use the word "Jap", it is in reference to the Japanese combatants of WWII. If I were to meet a veteran of the war today, I'd be meeting a Japanese.

I hope nobody is awaiting an apology from me for my use of the word "Jap"...

I have a small poster of Uncle Sam in my office. He has a large combination wrench in his right hand. His left sleeve is rolled up, and he's in the process of rolling up his right sleeve. He's in mid stride, and has a pretty p-o'ed expression on his face.

The caption reads:
"JAP...You're Next!
We'll Finish the Job!"

It's way cool!


Speaking of The American War of the Rebellion...
I'm proud to call myself an American. I can not imagine that a modern Confederacy could be as well off as the New South is today. Nonetheless, I take pride in being a Son of a Confederate Veteran. My 3x Grandpa Zion was a veteran of The 49th GA Infantry, Co. H - "The Thomasville Rangers". They entered the war early, and fought with the Army of Northern Virginia under R.E. Lee. They (what few were left) laid down their arms at Appomattox in 1865. Those guys - on both sides - knew the meaning of hardship. I have the utmost respect for them all - just as my dad's crew had the utmost respect for the Jap pilot that they buried at sea with full military honors...”

“Yea,what lipstick said.”

“P.S. - The poem I posted above was not written by me.”

“this is a perfect example of the difference between knowing folks in real life and knowing what they write here. i don't think i've interpreted anything that 'jo has ever said as offensive. he's a pretty mellow dude, and i have a lot of respect for him.

now, sarabelle, she's as rude as a drunk sailor!”

“I'm also proud of my Confederate Veteran forbearers (Texans), even though I was born and raised in the heart of Yankee territory (Boston area).

On Japan though:

#1) No Sherpa's on Mt. Fuji (unless they are tourists). Sherpas live 1,000s of miles away in Himalayas.

#2) I can understand dropping the A bomb on Hiroshima. I think it should have been tried on a more military target... or something other than the heart of a major city --- but that may be because of the benefit of hindsight. I don't think anyone fully grasped what an A bomb would do.
What is much harder to justify is dropping an A bomb on another city (Nagasaki) so soon afterwards.

3) If the term is hurtful to Japanese today, why use it at all - especially on the world wide web? I don't know of a single WWII veteran who is annoyed or confused when people say Japanese?”

“I used the word "Jerry" in reference to the German soldiers of WWII, and no one has raised an eyebrow (as far as I know). And why should they? I meant nothing derogatory by the use of that word, either.

When I said "...on both sides..." in my previous post, I was referring to the Confederates and the "Blue Bellies".
(o;”

“In regards to #2, Ped, what the hell took Japan so long to figure out we meant business? Weren't they warned we'd do it again?

As far as "Jerry" vs. "Jap"? I dunno. It's a race thing I guess. It's hard to tell just by looking who is of German ancestry (I have some German heritage) but a bit easier to tell who is of Japanese ancestry. Maybe it's a regional thing. I know there's a sizable Asian population in my area and I'd be called on the carpet if I used that term or had a poster like gojo's displayed.

Geez, is this off the topic or what?”

“Kleetn, I can pick out a German from a Pole or Bulgarian or Italian about as good as I can pick out a Japanese person from Chinese,Korean,Thai or Phillipino for that matter. Which is to say that I am completely ignorant of ANYONES ethnicity. I like big sweeping brush strokes...Asians,Honkies,Blacks,Latinos. I think gojo's poster sounds cool. But I dig old WWII propoganda posters anyway.”