Passivists Unite

“Oh I know it's not a popular thing, I am a passivist objector to war. I believe that there are other ways to stop terrorists, other than creating terror. I pray that America can rise above this tradgedy and not sink to the level of our aggressors by killing people. I will not fight, I will not kill anyone, that is in no way PEACE!!!

How would Jesus react to this? Would he pick up a gun, or would he reach out a hand? I stand with Jesus, I reach out in love and in peace. May our enemys come to know their errors through love.

Please America don't give in to hate.”

“ThinAir, Could you explain what you mean by other ways to stop terrorists?”

“I just got back from my son's boot camp graduation. Terrorism is not very fashionable right now. What is fashionable is a bony, hollow-eyed Marine with a bad sunburn, a robotic gait and not a single stripe on his sleeve. Airline ticket agents adore him. Old ladies touch his arm gently and say thanks. Stewardesses offer double sodas. Strangers start conversations that must be cut short to catch a flight. Airline Pilots stop him to shake his hand. A father cries.

America is ready for War.”

“Congratulations to your son bacpac!”

“I am against a war until all other possible avenues have been exhausted.

Best of luck to your son bacpac.”

“I'll be praying that you don't have a less joyous reason to be crying over your son, bacpac.”

“I understand that we can't just sit back and allow terrorist attacks, but I keep thinking that there must be a better way than sending our young men off to war. The terror I feel is that this war will last long enough to take my son away from me.”

“I thank God for the passivists. I am not one of them, but they are part of the public dialogue that allows this country to find its way. There will be times when restraint from using military force will be appropriate, and without Passivists the Hawks will prevail. I believe the vast majority of us do not feel that passivism is alway the proper way anymore than aggression, that decisions are made in context of the problem. Is defense passivism? How far should we go at home to prevent this horror. Is Passivism really inactivism? What will you do instead? We have made marginal and poor foreign policy moves in the past (and some good ones!!!), that come back to haunt us, how do we resolve that?


Whether Passivist or not, we need everybody right now, not to be robotic chanters of government rhetoric and propaganda, but to have the right talks and to do all that needs to be done. I hope the Passivists are not Inactivists. I have a close friend who was a Conscientious Objector during Viet Nam-he worked in a Harlem health clinic. Right now, young people are not being forced to make that decision, but the point is the same. If you will not support the war effort, will you still support your country? That may be the toughest part of being an American.”

“Your opinion is greatly appreciated ThinAir and if you prefer to remain passive that is fine. Along the WWJD hypothesis though. Jesus was a Jew, right? The law of the Jews has very pointed examples of when to make war. If in biblical days a band of Babylonians were to kill 6,333 of G-d?s innocent people what would G-d have them do? Pray for peace? Jesus may not have fought (who?s to say he wouldn?t?), but he would not have condemned those who did. Again, if you choose to remain passive that is fine. As long as those of us willing to rattle the sabers for America are not thought less of for doing so.”

“This is not Vietnam and comparing the two is inaccurate. We were attacked here. The Armed Services aren't going somewhere to help fight a civil war against communism, they are going to fight a war that was brought to OUR country. IF our young are forced to the draft it is to insure the freedom and liberty of all AMERICANS. Those that protest in this case are protesting the very essence of what allows them to protest. Go figure.”

“Is this a new word here: "Passivism."

I am not a pacifist. I almost wish I was. There is definitely a place for military action here, and if it can be conducted properly against the right enemies... there may be a place for war.

I am afraid that our leadership is preparing to embark on a reckless adventure of the type that helped to create the situation we are in.

I place myself somewhere between the mindless America bashing that says we are a horrible country and have no right to retaliate and the naive nation worship that says American behavvior is perfect and denies the history of American misadventures and legitimate third world grievances against the US. Somewhere between the naive idea that violence never solves anything and that love is the only answer, and the notion that the world can be remade with military force is a realistic awareness of what is possible.”

“ThinAir: I don't mean to sound harsh or dismissive about the spelling. While I struggle with my own thoughts and reactions, I appreciate the range of thoughtful views expressed by others - and especially respect people who are regulars here and have the guts to thoughtfully, but clearly express a view that goes against the vast majority.”

“Nigal - why won't you spell God? Just curious. It seems very appropriate to me to spell it out when simply refering to God.”

“It?s a habit I have picked up in my studies. Many don?t write the names of G-d down because they can be erased, defaced or disrespected. It?s simply a way to honor G-d. Hashem (The Name or The Dwelling Place) is useable but most people wouldn?t understand what it means, so use G-d instead.”

“What is a pacifist? What does honor mean to a pacifist? What does loyalty mean to a pacifist? What does courage mean to a pacifist? What does fear mean to a pacifist?

I think before we jump on the pacifist bandwagon we need to ask, "what sacrifices are pacifists willing to make?"

How do we distiguish the pacifists from cowards? I really want to know. I have never been very passive (duh!). What is their motivation? Honor? Courage? Fear? Sacrifice? Religious tenets? Will the people who laughed at my religious faith now use my faith as a banner for their cause?”

“ThinAir, I'm with you. I spoke this aloud in my Ethics class last Tues. night and I got the wrath rained down on me. No other person agreed or said it anyway. I am not pacifist because of religious reasons, I am not pacifist because I think it is courageous or honorable. I am pacifist, because I am afraid. I am afraid of the awful truths I have read about war. I am afraid that men I know (and love) will have to die. I admit it bacpac, I don't want to have to comfort my grieving mother, should my little brother be called to duty. I don't want to raise my daughter in a time when the fear and constant threat of war hangs over us. I don't want to see the look in the eyes of one of my closest friend's parents, when they are told he will go to battle (he is a West Point grad.). I am afraid for the people we will make war against. I know that they are fathers, brothers, uncles, sons, and maybe mothers, children, grandparents. I saw the way Americans grieved and I do not wish it on anyone, even the enemy. I believe that violence will never result in a lasting peace. I don't believe that out of religious doctrine, just out of my heart and after reading a little history. This does not mean I disrespect you or your son or thousands of other men who will fight. If you are willing to pay the price w/ your life or your child's, than you have much more courage than I do. I am still proud to be an American and I honor those who have gone before and won me the right to be one, but I myself am not of that making. I pray that we will find a better way to end these conflicts in our world, before we destroy it.”

“bacpac,congrats to your son. I come from a military family,yall know we southern boys love to scrap. I was taught to respect a uniform at an early age. So much that I went in the army a Vietnam was winding down. I was too young to enlist while it was really happening. While I guess there is room for passivists in this country(blessed are the peacemakers)my personal feelings are run toward the idea there is a time to kill.”

“Thanks, sandy.”

“null”

“newgirl, I understand your fears. I have the same fears.

Do you want to live forever?”

“I have to admit, I don't cherish the thought of my brother's life or that of his wife being at risk. The fact of the matter is they chose to do this. They chose to do this and others choose not to. Fortunately for all of us, there are these people who will defend us. Unfortunately there are those who would chose to stay in the safest place on earth and complain about people sticking up for them. Were you all pacicist before this started? Do you understand what this belief even is? Thinair, the way you described one of your ski trips put many others in harms way. Harm that could have been caused by you and, by the grace of the lord, did not come to fruition. The way I understand it, a true pacifist would not allow his actions to harm any living thing. Would you still be a pacifist if you mother were already grieving a lost child newgirl? Would you still be a pacifist if your brother was in harms way and not allowed to fight? I pray that things will turn out for the best also. I also have strong belief that until every person on this earth becomes a pacifist, we will need to meet death and blood she with death and blood shed. Thinair, you insinuate that anyone who picks up a gun to defend his or her country or believes in this course of action does not stand with Jesus. Mighty ballsy statement in my opinion.”

“and bacpac, congratulations and God bless”

“I don't want to live forever, but I do want to die a quiet death (if those are good words to convey what I'm saying). Baume, I do know what pacifism is and I did hold the belief before this started. I have actually had the argument I had in my Ethics class before . . . in my 7th grade civics class. We came up with hypothetical situations where the U.S. would be attacked or in some way drawn into a war (very much akin to what did occur) and then we had to discuss how we would handle such situations. I had the same things to say then. I was afraid of war, afraid to lose loved ones, afraid to have to live my life in the midst of it, etc. I have never been in the situation, but I truly think I would feel the same if I had lost people in this attack. In fact, I think I would hold to pacifism even more strongly. I would fear more death amongst my family and friends. I would go as far as to say that I pity terrorist, I think they are people wracked with evil, paranoia, and dread. I do not think those who believe in war are wrong, I am just not of that making.”

“I understand newgirl. I am not a fatalist. I want to live a long life too. I respect and appreciate people who make sacrifices for me.”

“No sense discussing your viewpoints with Baume. He's been blindly following the party line and spouting off reams of rhetoric. Thank goodness he's stopped over using the bold to emphasize his trite points. There is no difference between our blind followers or the terrorist's..neither thinks for themselves.

Perhaps the people labelled as pacifists aren't but are skeptical of GW's course of actions instead. There is a big difference between being anti-war and anti-policy.”

“I understand the point you are making newgirl and have respect for that. I think anyone who has, or knows, people that will be in harms way have these same fears. I know I do.”

“Yes, gear slut, there is a big difference. I find it hard to see which stance you take though. Can you explain to me why if somebody has feelings different than yours you label them as "blindly following the party line and spouting off reams of rhetoric".”

“Why do you label people as pacifists?

As for rhetoric, you'd better go and re-read your posts.”

“What is a pacifist?”

“I am not labeling, I am speaking to those that label themselves.

Main Entry: pac·i·fism
Pronunciation: 'pa-s&-"fi-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French pacifisme, from pacifique pacific
Date: 1902
1 : opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes; specifically : refusal to bear arms on moral or religious grounds
2 : an attitude or policy of nonresistance
- pac·i·fist /-fist/ noun”

“puss?

I dunno. I am clueless.”

“"I want to Kill! blood, guts, brains in my teeth...Kill."

unfortunately a accident that happened to me when I was a child has left me unable to serve in our military or I would.

I will be the first one on the block though to bust out my window with my gun to fight.”

“sirpete, send a donation to the USO

They won't let me fight either.”

“Bacpac thanks for your post. It was very nice. As I read the lines tears come to my eyes. Most moving.
Congrats on your son.
My son-in-law is in the reserves and my daughter is fearfully waiting for the call. I can understand why she is upset they have only been married 1 year, she is in school in Memphis far from home. I am sure she will feel very alone. But I know she will be fine. I told her to be proud that he has made this commitment to the country. I think she has come to terms with it.
I am very thankful for all who serve our country to protect us our FREEDOM.

I don't like war but sometimes we must do things we don't like. I really don't think these people will stop what they are doing if we don't step in.

Well just some of my thoughts.
God Bless America and the men and women who serve our great nation!”

“Bacpac, I do respect those who fight. They have the courage to risk their lives.

I think we are all missing an important point though. We have not lived in our own country w/ the atrocities of war, its terror, its violence and its lack of respect for human life right in the backyard. We don't know what it is like to send our children away on their own, because it is safer than remaining at home. We don't know what it is like to have people filled w/ the rage of war raping and killing our families in front of us or what it's like to go w/ out basics like sugar or clean water or shoes. Until one of us has faced that, we can't honestly know if we are for or against war. I know (only through reading the accounts of others) that war has the possiblity to lead to that kind of devastation and that is why I take the belief I have now. Maybe going through it would change that view.”

“I hear chicks dig puss's, especially ones in uniform.”

“Congratulations, bacpac. You must be very proud of your son.

Thank goodness the U.S. isn't made up of pacifists. I echo what Barb said..."God bless America and the men and women who serve our great nation."”

“I have a comment to make, it has something to due with being passive, but I don't know where else to post it.

Did anyone see the broadcast that was on most of the channels last night at 9pm. Bands performed and actors showed up to raise money for the different funds to help with the tragedy?

I'd like to point out that the actor Will Smith introduced Muhamed Ali as a hero. I don't understand that. He wasn't always a Muslim, but became one, and refused to go to war because of his new found religion. Why is this man a hero?”

“Oh God, here we go again.

Let me make this simple for you LH.

Muhamed Ali is and was a sports hero to many people, including me when I was a young kid. He won a gold medal for the USA at the Olympics in 1960 and went on to to be a World Heavy Weight Champion boxer. He was also a civil rights champion in the 1960's.

I remember him visiting sick kids in a nearby hospital when I was young. To me he is and will always be a hero.

Got any other black people you want to pick on LH?”

“A muslim can't be a hero? Sounds like he was being a Muslim in the strictest sense of the word in refusing to take life. I'm not sure but Muslims may not follow the same lines of theology as Christians do that says we should not kill but governmental authority gives the right to take life.”

“Bacpac, as hard as this is for me to admit, I actually understand where you are coming from on this one.

We live close enough to Ft. Hood, (the largest military base in the US) to hear the booms from their maneuvers. Activity has really increased down there in the last two weeks as you might imagine..the noises send chills down my spine when I hear then at night. My kids (and I) are scared.

My daughter is beside herself..her boyfriend (US Army) is being shipped off and they had plans to marry later this year. Now? Who knows?

While the logical side of me explains to her that he is in the military, what did you expect would happen in the event of war? The maternal side of me encourages her to stand strong for her nation, be proud and courageous and use her faith for support during these difficult days.

We truly are "One Nation Under God" and in spite of our different beliefs or opinions we need to support each other.

Bacpac, I will pray for your son and family, as I already do for all the military familes everywhere.”

“Woa there gear slut, I'll have to defend L.H. on this one. I don't think her questin had anything to do with fact he's black. When I read her post I kind of wondered the same thing”

“I'm wondering what would've happened if he had been drafted. The Army couldn't afford the bad PR if he had been killed -- he would've been fighting exhibitions all over Southeast Asia. So he was never in any danger... perhaps he simply didn't want to lend creedence to the war.

BTW, war wasn'nt ever declared, was it? We seem to have gotten away from that, starting with Korea ("Police Action"?). The last slick terminology I remember hearing was "Viet Nam 'Era' Veterans". Are they still referring to it as an 'era'?

I know some folks have problems with conscientious objectors in general, but what about Muhammed Ali in particular? I'm not playing any race card, here. I wasn't too crazy about him just because he was a loudmouth.

Now, I just feel sorry for him.”

“I think Ali is a hero in the fact that after his decision to become a Muslim, he was one in the strict interpretation of their believes. That is it, it is not about black or white or boxer or Christian or Muslim.”

“he could talk loud and back it up. he was the man. it is sad to see him in his current state.”

“Why does everyone refer to sports figures as heros? They are not. At best they are talented human beings they have a gift. Look up the definition of "hero". They are to be respected for their talent, nothing less, nothing more.”

“I think you guys are talking about pacifism;
1. opposition to war or violence
2. the principle or policy of establishing and maintaining universal peace or such relations among all nations that all differences may be adjusted without recourse to war
3. nonresistance to aggression

I find the first two definitions admirable.
Number three however, I do not find acceptable.

passivism;
1. the quality of being passive
2. the priciple or practice of passive resistance

Those of us who are indeed citizens of the U.S. are important to the future war-effort, whatever IT may be.

The "no war" people are just as vital to the effort as the fire-breathing "hawks" and everyone else in between.
And we have many degrees in between those two extremes.

The "no war" people and pacifists can help ensure that the U.S. avoids atrocity and depredation in its war effort, whatever that turns out to be, by holding our collective feet to the fire of decency and lawfulness.”

“Gear Slut, calling Muhamed Ali is a hero is an insult to the rescurers in the world trade center. Calling everyone a hero causes the word to lose it's value. I've gone to hospitals at holloween to give candy out to sick kids. That doesn't make me a hero.”

“Wow, Tex-
I see by your bio that you are 38, distinguished, worldly, female %^)

How old is your daughter?
And the boy?]
My oldest of three boys is 18.
This is a time of concern for sure.

If you can hear Ft Hood you must know that there are two things that sound like thunder and one of them IS thunder.”

“Is Gear Slut representative of most pacifists?

I hope so.”