NRA terrorists

“Each year, firearms claim over 30,000 lives. The WTC attack killed ~6000 by comparison.
Over the last five decades, the increasing rate of firearm deaths in the United States has paralleled the rate of firearms production.

There are over 211 million firearms in America.
In 1991, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) reported that since the turn-of-the-century over 211 million firearms were manufactured in the United States, of which approximately 70 million were handguns. Since 1989, manufacturers and importers introduced an average of 3.5 million new guns into the U.S. market each year.


In 1998, 3792 young people ages 19 and under were killed by gunfire, an average of 10 each day. Since 1979, more young Americans have died from gunfire than the number of soldiers who in Vietnam. In fact, the firearms-related death rate for children under 15 years old in the United States is nearly 12 times higher than that of the other 25 industrialized countries combined.

Women and Guns
The gun industry markets to women under the guise of self-protection, yet a gun in the home only increases a woman's risk of firearm death and injury. Women are far more likely to be shot by their intimate partner than are men. About twice as many women are shot by their intimate partner than are killed by strangers using any other means.


Most Americans support stricter gun control laws. Support for specific measures such as closing the gun show loophole and licensing and registration win support from about 80% of Americans. Yet the NRA opposes all gun control measures.

The Cost of Gun Violence
In 1990, researchers estimated that the costs of direct medical spending and lost productivity in the United States totaled $20.4 billion. (Similar cost to the WTC tradedy) Gun violence is a public health issue that places an enormous financial burden on hospitals and taxpayers.

Weak U.S. laws contribute to international arms trafficking.
The U.S. has weaker firearm laws and more firearm deaths than all other industrialized nations, as well as most developing nations, according to a 1997 study by the United Nations.
Guns are rarely useful for self-defense. They only increase the risk of death and injury and create a false sense of security.
A gun kept in the home is 4 times more likely to be involved in an unintentional shooting, 7 times more likely to be used in a criminal assault or homicide, and 11 times more likely to be used to commit or attempt suicide, than to be used in self-defense.

Where is the outrage for innocent dead children and adults claimed by guns in the USA? Why is it ok for the NRA to allow the killing of Americans, but not ok for Arabs who are at war with the USA because the USA is on their soil and permitting the killing of innocent Palestinian children by Israelis?”

“oops...forgot to credit gunfree.org for much of that information.”

“Spock!!! what gives!!!! are you venting from Uranus again........”

“First, a 1989 study (Furby, Journal of Interpersonal Violence) found that both male and female survey respondents judged a gun to be the most effective means that a potential rape victim could use to fend off the assault. Rape "experts" considered it a close second, after eye-gouging.

Second, raw data from the 1979-1985 installments of the Justice Department's annual National Crime Victim Survey show that when a woman resists a stranger rape with a gun, the probability of completion was 0.1 percent and of victim injury 0.0 percent, compared to 31 percent and 40 percent, respectively, for all stranger rapes (Kleck, Social Problems, 1990).

Third, a recent paper (Southwick, Journal of Criminal Justice, 2000) analyzed victim resistance to violent crimes generally, with robbery, aggravated assault and rape considered together. Women who resisted with a gun were 2.5 times more likely to escape without injury than those who did not resist and 4 times more likely to escape uninjured than those who resisted with any means other than a gun. Similarly, their property losses in a robbery were reduced more than six-fold and almost three-fold, respectively, compared to the other categories of resistance strategy.

Fourth, we have two studies in the last 20 years that directly address the outcomes of women who resist attempted rape with a weapon. (Lizotte, Journal of Quantitative Criminology, 1986; Kleck, Social Problems, 1990.) The former concludes, "Further, women who resist rape with a gun or knife dramatically decrease their probability of completion." (Lizotte did not analyze victim injuries apart from the rape itself.) The latter concludes that "resistance with a gun or knife is the most effective form of resistance for preventing completion of a rape"; this is accomplished "without creating any significant additional risk of other injury."

The best conclusion from available scientific data, then, is when avoidance of rape has failed and one must choose between being raped and resisting, a woman's best option is to resist with a gun in her hands.”

“Where is your outrage towards the rapist? What if it's the rapist who has the gun? Show me the statistics in that scenario.”

“Guns save more lives than they take; prevent more injuries than they inflict
* Law-abiding citizens use guns to defend themselves against criminals as many as 2.5 million times every year -- or about 6,850 times a day.1 This means that each year, firearms are used more than 60 times more often to protect the lives of honest citizens than to take lives.2

* Of the 2.5 million self-defense cases, as many as 200,000 are by women defending themselves against sexual abuse.3

* Citizens shoot and kill at least twice as many criminals as police do every year (1,527 to 606).4 And readers of Newsweek learned in 1993 that "only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The "error rate" for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high."5

* Of the 2.5 million times citizens use their guns to defend themselves every year, the overwhelming majority merely brandish their gun or fire a warning shot to scare off their attackers. Less than 8% of the time, a citizen will kill or wound his/her attacker.6

* Handguns are the weapon of choice for self-defense. Citizens use handguns to protect themselves over 1.9 million times a year.7 Many of these self-defense handguns could be labeled as "Saturday Night Specials."”

“Concealed carry laws help reduce crime
* One-half million self-defense uses. Every year, as many as one-half million citizens defend themselves with a firearm away from home.8

* Florida. In the ten years following the passage of Florida's concealed carry law in 1987, there were 478,248 people who received permits to carry firearms.9 FBI reports show that the homicide rate in Florida, which in 1987 was much higher than the national average, fell 39% during that 10-year period. The Florida rate is now far below the national average.10

* Do firearms carry laws result in chaos? No. Consider the case of Florida. A citizen in the Sunshine State is almost twice as likely to be attacked by an alligator than to be assaulted by a concealed carry holder. During the first ten years that the Florida law was in effect, alligator attacks outpaced the number of crimes committed by carry holders by a 146 to 88 margin.11

* Nationwide. A comprehensive national study determined in 1996 that violent crime fell after states made it legal to carry concealed firearms. The results of the study showed:

* States which passed concealed carry laws reduced their murder rate by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%;12 and
* If those states not having concealed carry laws had adopted such laws in 1992, then approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and over 11,000 robberies would have been avoided yearly.13
* Concealed Carry v. Waiting Period Laws. In 1976, both Georgia and Wisconsin tried two different approaches to fighting crime. Georgia enacted legislation making it easier for citizens to carry guns for self-defense, while Wisconsin passed a law requiring a 48 hour waiting period before the purchase of a handgun. What resulted during the ensuing years? Georgia's law served as a deterrent to criminals and helped drop its homicide rate by 21 percent. Wisconsin's murder rate, however, rose 33 percent during the same period.14”

“Criminals avoid armed citizens
* Kennesaw, GA. In 1982, this suburb of Atlanta passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate subsequently dropped 89% in Kennesaw, compared to the modest 10.4% drop in Georgia as a whole.15

* Ten years later (1991), the residential burglary rate in Kennesaw was still 72% lower than it had been in 1981, before the law was passed.16

* Nationwide. Statistical comparisons with other countries show that burglars in the United States are far less apt to enter an occupied home than their foreign counterparts who live in countries where fewer civilians own firearms. Consider the following rates showing how often a homeowner is present when a burglar strikes:

* Homeowner occupancy rate in the gun control countries of Great Britain, Canada and Netherlands: 45% (average of the three countries); and,
* Homeowner occupancy rate in the United States: 12.7%.17
Rapes averted when women carry or use firearms for protection

* Orlando, FL. In 1966-67, the media highly publicized a safety course which taught Orlando women how to use guns. The result: Orlando's rape rate dropped 88% in 1967, whereas the rape rate remained constant in the rest of Florida and the nation.18
* Nationwide. In 1979, the Carter Justice Department found that of more than 32,000 attempted rapes, 32% were actually committed. But when a woman was armed with a gun or knife, only 3% of the attempted rapes were actually successful.19
Justice Department study:

* 3/5 of felons polled agreed that "a criminal is not going to mess around with a victim he knows is armed with a gun."20
* 74% of felons polled agreed that "one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."21
* 57% of felons polled agreed that "criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are about running into the police."22”

“Police cannot protect -- and are not required to protect -- every individual
* The courts have consistently ruled that the police do not have an obligation to protect individuals, only the public in general. For example, in Warren v. D.C. the court stated "courts have without exception concluded that when a municipality or other governmental entity undertakes to furnish police services, it assumes a duty only to the public at large and not to individual members of the community."23

* Former Florida Attorney General Jim Smith told Florida legislators that police responded to only about 200,000 of 700,000 calls for help to Dade County authorities. Smith was asked why so many citizens in Dade County were buying guns and he said, "They damn well better, they've got to protect themselves."24

* The Department of Justice found that in 1989, there were 168,881 crimes of violence which were not responded to by police within 1 hour.25

* Currently, there are about 150,000 police officers on duty at any one time to protect a population of more than 250 million Americans -- or almost 1,700 citizens per officer”

“Where isn't your outrage directed at criminals, calnatv? Why isn't there a war on crime in the US? Because, if criminals were effectively eliminated there wouldn't be a need for personal protection, and hence no need for a gun industry or NRA. The NRA is supporting crime.”

“74% of felons polled agreed that 'one reason burglars avoid houses when people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime.'
U.S., Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice, 'The Armed Criminal in America: A Survey of Incarcerated Felons,' Research Report, (July 1985): 27.”

“"The said Constitution [shall] be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms."
-- Samuel Adams of Massachusetts, Massachusetts' U.S. Constitution ratification convention, 1788”

“No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."
-- Thomas Jefferson of Virginia, Proposed Virginia Constitution, 1776”

“"[A]rms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."
-- Thomas Paine of Pennsylvania, Thoughts On Defensive War, 1775”

“America fails to incarcerate violent criminals. In 1960, 738 criminals were sent to prison for every 1,000 violent crimes, but by 1980, the number of criminals sent to prison per 1,000 violent crimes dropped to 227, and the crime rate tripled. Over 60,000 criminals convicted of violent crime every year _ murder, rape, robbery or aggravated assault _ are not sent to prison. Of America's 4.3 million convicted criminals, only 26% are in prison. The remaining 74% are serving "sentences" of parole or probation, free on the streets. Since lower incarceration rates are mostly due to prison overcrowding, CrimeStrike lobbied successfully to increase prison capacity in Texas, Mississippi, Virginia and nearly tripled the funds allocated for state prison construction in the 1994 Federal Crime Bill. Criminals who are incarcerated are freed too early, serving on average only one-third of their sentences. The average time served is: for murder, 7.7 years; rape, 4.6 years; robbery 3.3 years; and aggravated assault,1.9 years. Every day in America, 14 people will be murdered, 48 women raped and 578 robbed by convicted criminals on parole or early release from prison. CrimeStrike helped win passage of Truth-In-Sentencing laws in Arizona, Mississippi and Virginia, preventing early release by requiring violent criminals to serve 85% of their sentences. Additionally, CrimeStrike blocked the paroles of individual murderers in Arkansas, Kansas, Missouri, Mississippi, Nebraska, New York, Ohio, Oregon, Texas and West Virginia. Juvenile crime has reached crisis proportions: Between 1980 and 1990, the number of juveniles arrested for heroin/cocaine rose 713%. Over the last five years, juvenile gang killings increased 208%. Yet only 1.5% of juvenile offenders were sent to adult or criminal court in 1991 and, of those, 85.3% were not sent to prison. CrimeStrike helped win passage of juvenile justice reform in Arkansas and Mississippi, requiring violent juvenile criminals who do "adult crime" to serve "adult time." Crime victims, or their survivors, are often treated as mere witnesses in court, unfairly barred from participating in the criminal justice process in any way. CrimeStrike worked for passage of Victims' Bill of Rights proposals in Arizona, Colorado, Illinois, Kansas, Maryland, Missouri and New Mexico. Repeat offenders are a serious threat to public safety. The average criminal commits 187-287 crimes a year, resulting in over six million people becoming victims of violent crime _ murder, rape, robbery or aggravated assault _ every year. CrimeStrike was instrumental in helping Washington State Initiative 593, the nation's first "Three Strike, You're Out" law, qualify for the ballot and then win passage by the largest margin in state history. CrimeStrike also provided grassroots support for the California "Three Strikes" law, which also won at the polls.”

“Thanks, calnatv.”

“I believe swimming pools kill more children per year than guns. Where's your outrage?

Death happens in many forms. If not by one then another.”

“"Because, if criminals were effectively eliminated there wouldn't be a need for personal protection, and hence no need for a gun industry or NRA. The NRA is supporting crime. "
-Spock

Spock, get real. We will never eliminate all the criminals. Even if we do, we still have the right to have guns and that cannot be taken away. Yes, innocent people are harmed and even killed by guns, but if you look at the cases almost 100% are because of misuse and stupid handling. Not the guns fault. That's like banning food because it makes people fat. Back to the right to bear arms thing. It is in the Constitution and it was put there for a reason. It is to prevent the Government from growing more powerfull then the people and giving the people a way to stop the Government if they do become more powerfull. What happens if you ban guns? It's not that I don't trust the Government, but who is to say what will happen 30 years from now. Also, you eliminate all guns from Citizens, then there still will be guns here. They will be in the hands of criminals. There is no way to prevent that. You can't stop crime by passing laws. Laws just define crime not enforce it. The only thing that gun laws do are keep guns out of the hands of the people that should be owning guns.
This is also why I disagree with the current system of licencing firearms. I feel I should not have to pay to have the right to possess a gun. I fell that I should be able to own any gun I damn well please. Now for guns such as assault rifels and automatics, I agree that tougher standards should be met and that being licenced to have one should include saftey checks to make sure you know what you are doing, but it should not include high prices. How constitutional is that?

Too many people see guns as a scape goat for bad law enforcement. If guns had never existed, then people would want to ban arrows, or knives, or blunt sticks.”

“"That's like banning food because it makes people fat."

I don't think I like the direction this going.”

“"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms?disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
Thomas Jefferson quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and punishment - (1764).”

“deathmarch99, food does not make you fat. Witness people here in Korea who eat a lot more than I can... yet not a single obese person. Unlike America full of obese people/pigs everywhere! US industry sells whatever fattening garbage they can to people if they can make a profit. Just like the NRA will sell whatever propaganda they can to gullible Americans who eat it up. The NRA wants America scared, being scared is terrorism's weapon, and the NRA is spreading a campaign of terror to keep up gun sales and continue their cause.”

“I guess gunfree.org has it right then”

“In 1993 'only 2 percent of civilian shootings involved an innocent person mistakenly identified as a criminal. The 'error rate' for the police, however, was 11 percent, more than five times as high.
Newsweek, November 15, 1993”

“Here's the answer to your 3rd post


In 89.6% of violent crimes directed against women, the offender does not have a gun; and only 10% of rapists carry a firearm. Thus, armed women will usually have a decided advantage against their attackers.
Don B. Kates, Jr.,”

“"Even if we do, we still have the right to have guns and that cannot be taken away." - deathmarch99

You DO NOT have the right to have guns ...the Second Amendment states that. Otherwise every gun control law on the books would be overthrown. And an act of Congress can do a lot more...except one problem - the NRA. It's once again the terrorist NRA which prevents Conress from passing legislation by threatening legislators with reprisals if they vote against the NRA.”

“You, calnatv, are a puppet for the NRA. And if you are a member, then you are a terrorist as sure as the NRA which uses terror to control the US government and holds the nation hostage to to its NRA agenda in spite of the fact that 80% of Americans want stricter gun laws.”

“I say ban the Chinese...they invented gunpowder a few hundred years ago.”

“Funny thing about those Chinese... the Korean tour guide I was just with seems to think that China will be economically superior to the USA in 20 years.”

“spock. I will personally chip in for your ticket to China.”

“as long as you stay there”

“Thanks, Big Raccoon. And as a return favor in 40 years, I will ask the Chinese people to donate money to the ongoing US war on terrorism which has brought the US to its knees.”

“Amendment II
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
-- Bill of Rights

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
--Bill of Rights

Hey Spock, these are in the US Bill of Rights, not the Korean and Chinese Bill of Rights.

I put the 4th amendment in there because people that will attempt to rob you, rape you, or kill you are in violation of this, and, according to the second amendment, you can bare arms to protect yourself and defend against these crimes.

BTW - I don't own a gun, and never have, but I respect the right to do so.

Spock, are you against tasers now too?”

“Spock makes up a new enemy everyday. He hates criminals today. Yesterday he hated the US prison system. Tommorrow he will hate babies, because they drink cow's milk. What a loon.”

“Spock, you're no half bred Vulcan, you're a Uranusian thru and thru.....”

“We reserve the right to keep and arm bears.”

“Spock? Are you not versed in US history at all? How can you state that

"You DO NOT have the right to have guns ...the Second Amendment states that"

I would really like to hear your interpretation of the second amendment. As for gun control laws, some are constitutional, others are the courts and Congress amending instead of legeslating. The constitutional laws are fine, the others have to go.”

“Spock, how interesting that your only answer to facts and figures presented in a rational manner is to demand "outrage" over illogical suppositions.

Great job calnatv.

You want answers, Spock? Read the only book-length exhaustive study of the question, "More Guns, Less Crime: Understanding Crime and Gun Control Laws" (2nd Ed.) by John R. Lott Jr., senior research scholar at the Yale University School of Law, published by University of Chicago Press. A former chief economist for the US Sentencing Commission, his conclusions from an extensive empirical study are summarized in the title.

Oh, BTW Spock, watch out for those nasty motor vehicles -- seems I heard they kill lots and lots of people, too. Better not use one of those, or anything transported in one. Don't want to be encouraging any "killer" organizations such as the National Auto Dealers Association and their fanatical sway over Congress and the Department of Transportation.”

“I love a good fight.”

“The only good fight we are likely to see out of spock is between him and the guys in the white coats.”

“A Justice Department survey of felons showed that 93% of handgun predators had obtained their most recent guns 'off-the-record.'
Dept of Justice 'Survey of Incarcerated Felons”

“85% of Americans believe people should have the right to use firearms to defend themselves in their homes, 64% favor allowing law-abiding citizens to carry firearms for personal protection outside their homes, and 72% favor stiffer sentences for criminals who use a gun in crime rather then more gun laws.
Survey of voters, Lawrence Research”

“I planned to jump all over this as an NRA Life Member, with a CCW license and years of firearms training (PS I haven't killed or terrorized anyone) but CALNATV wow, he/she covered all the points. If Spock is nutz enough to try to argue past facts, there's no helping him He's illogical.”

“Hey, I've seen Spok shoot stuff with his fazer.”

“"This is my c#@k,

This is my gun,

One is for killing,

One is for fun!"”

“Hmmm..... no reply from Spock. I guess he is still enroute to Uranus to wipe out Clingons.”

“Gun laws need to be in place and enforced, but I don't know that it would do any good. If you have enough cash, you can get any weapon you wan't.
So we hope for the best and stay alert to danger.”

“And don't forget that the Right to Bear Arms is primarily about POLITICAL defense. When folks get off on hunting and recreation, it misses the point: having the right to defend yourself from those who would usurp your political self-determination. The framers of the Constitution wanted citizens to be suspicious of the motives of government and to be prepared to stand up against those who would undermine the Constitutional protections.

Someone coming to rob or rape you is just the most basic form of interference in your self-determination. Governments have subtler and more insideous approaches, such as "The War on Drugs" or "The War on Terrorism."”

“Wow Spock... I support tighter gun control, but that analogy (NRA vs. the terrorists) was totally fokkked!

Thats funny you didn't look trollish.”

“FOLKS - IT JUST DOESN'T MATTER!! Don't you realize that "Spook" is a TROLL? He just keeps casting that line out there, and people keep biting!

The facts are: Gun ownership is legal in the US, and is guaranteed as a right in the Constitution. Those who disagree bite weeny, because they can not point to ONE STATE that has outlawed gun ownership. Sure, it ain't easy in some states, but it's still legal, because we still have the 2nd Amendment.

Even if guns WERE outlawed tomorrow, it STILL wouldn't matter, since there are something like 60 million (or more) gun owners in this country, and probably more than 200 million LEGAL guns in circulation, not counting the millions of unregistered and grey-market guns. Go ahead, OUTLAW guns. It will control the ownership of guns about as little as outlawing marijuana has controlled ITS use - actually less so, since there are WAY more gun owners than marijuana smokers!

So it DOESN'T MATTER if you're "for" or "against" gun ownership in the US - we have 'em, and they ain't going away. Period.

By the way, Spook:

China sucks.

Korea sucks.

You suck.

Have a nice day.”

“Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my gun(s).”