Why do they hate us?

“have JC penny's white sales and our sheets are nicer than thiers.”

“And for every Penney's customer on Wednesday, a commeroative picture frame with a picture of the US flag. Sure to be a collecter item some day.”

“Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America'
From:The Observer

In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful,
"Permission to fight (against disbelievers) is given to those (believers) who are fought against, because they have been wronged and surely, Allah is Able to give them (believers) victory" [Quran 22:39]

"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taghut (anything worshipped other than Allah e.g. Satan). So fight you against the friends of Satan; ever feeble is indeed the plot of Satan."[Quran 4:76]

Some American writers have published articles under the title 'On what basis are we fighting?' These articles have generated a number of responses, some of which adhered to the truth and were based on Islamic Law, and others which have not. Here we wanted to outline the truth - as an explanation and warning - hoping for Allah's reward, seeking success and support from Him.

While seeking Allah's help, we form our reply based on two questions directed at the Americans:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) - and we make no distinction between them.

(iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs.

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws.

What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise." [Quran9:13-1]

The Nation of honour and respect:

"But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers." [Quran 63:8]

"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be*superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers" [Quran 3:139]

The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life:

"Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers." [Quran 3:169-171]

The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised:

"It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it." [Quran 61:9]

"Allah has decreed that 'Verily it is I and My Messengers who shall be victorious.' Verily Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty." [Quran 58:21]

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance.

If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace. If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy.

This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?”

“because we leave long ass threads!!!


j/k”

“islam was created to justify arab imperialism....not the other way around.


WWIII has already started and we're worried about competitive dodgeball hurting our childrren's self esteem.....”

“I agree - it is very long but very important.”

“all this is very very skeery. (did I spell it right this time??)

Everyone around here does not seam to worry. Am I the only one that is worried about biological/chemical weapons? my sis is flying to the US in december, no one is worried but me.”

“so all we have to do is change everything about us and they'll like us then......right?”

“yupp, and then they'll find another reason to hate us”

“islam was created to justify arab imperialism?

the utter ignorance and sheer stupidity of such a comment is utterly astonishing.

was christianity created to justify western and american imperialism?

before any of you try to pass judgment on a religion, take some precious time to learn a little about it. islam is based upon seven basic tenets emphasizing love, respect and charity. people enjoy parsing the koran to yield questionable passages illustrating islam is a violent religion.

the same can be done to the bible. terrorists have molested islam to pursue their own greed and hate. the same has been, and can be, done to christianity.”

“Viol Man (and anyone else): How authentic is this letter?”

“Thanks for saying it jmitch.


This Osama is one very twisted bastard. I thought that Bush was being disingenuous when he said after 9/11 that they hate us for our freedoms but here it is straight from the horse’ ass/mouth: “fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.”

His tirade basically boils down to if we abandon Israel and the rest of our allies to the wolves, stay within our own borders and convert to Islam, he’ll leave us alone.

Eat it.”

“jmitch, while I agree with everthing you said, I tend to look at the differences in the life of Mohhamed and Jesus. Could it be described as disclipline versus compassion?”

“I don't know if you opened my earlier link ped, but this one discusses the authenticity of the letter.”

“"Islam was created to justify arab imperialism....not the other way around."

It does sound to me like someone was listening to 15 minutes too many minutes of Rush. Nonetheless, I'd be glad to learn where in the history of the origins of Islam there is evidence for this kind of statement.”

“Viol: that link didn't satisfy me regarding the authenticity. It just said it wasn't proved to be authentic, but people thought it was.

The paranoid anti-semitism in the letter is incredible (it is consistent with the Hamas covenant).

As for the violence of the Koran, vs. the Bible. The New Testament seems to me to be far less warlike than either the Old Testament or the Koran. There is plenty of extreme violence justified and glorified in both the Koran and in the Old Testament.”

“Boy. That was good reading. I must say, except for the religious gobbilty gook, there is a lot in there I can agree with.

Mind you . . .I am all for bombing terrorists out of existence. Starting with Osama.

BUT . . . that is because I was forunate enough to have been born here, in America, to a middle class white family.

As I suspect that greater than 99% of the users of this board have been.

We had 1 (one) person on this board of Lebanese extraction and he was driven of with messages of hate and racism.

If I lived in an Islamic country . . .I would pretty much be in favor of taking out the world trade centers.

We will be brought down not by terrorists, but by our own ingnorance, arrogance and short sightedness. Bush personifies all of these shortcomings in one stupid package.

Our support for the illegal, land grabbing regime in Israel has made us the enemy of millions of islmaics. While I do not suggest abandoning Israel, we sure has heck should put Sharon in a headlock, tell him to get his fat a$$ out of the west bank, or we will abandon him (billion and billions of dollars in aid).

As for the religious crap.

All religion is unadulterated crap. There is NOTHING TO CHOOSE between islam, judism and christianity.

Religion is a crutch for weekmnded idiots.

Religion is used by the powerful to keep said same weakminded idiots in line. And to incite them to do their bidding.

"god(s)" were invented to explain the unexplainable.

Religion was invented to present a view of "god" that could be controlled. The priests exercised control, and accumulating power.

Just send a check and you too will be saved.

Osama doesn't believe that crap. HIS FOLLOWERS might believe that crap, but he doesn't. He is just in the business of accumulating power. Why do it yourself, when you can get a bunch of dumb flunkies to do it for you. Look at the Baptists in the South, the Catholics, the Mormons. Its all the same.



Again . . . I am all in favor of bombing the terrorists out of existence. But it is only because I was born here, in relative affluence, and I want to keep living my life uninterrupted.

So get in your big oil guzzling SUV, drive you ignorant red-necked a$$ down to your local hooters, hoist an alcoholic beverage, oogle the half naked women, and drink a toast to the other 95% of the F-ing planet on whose back you're riding.

Dumb ignorant ba$tards.”

“Another point. Bin-Laden (or whomever) is not saying he attacks us because of our "freedoms" or "vices." He is careful to say that the US is being attacked because of its "agressions" against the Islamic world. He talks about fornication, usury, etc... when he talks about what the US should change.

This is important, because - if I understand correctly - Moslems aren't allowed to violently attack Christians and Jews unless they (the Moslems) are attacked first.

I say this for the sake of understanding the structure and character of the message. Like other violent and vile religious fanatics - this creep adheres (in some sick sort of way) to certain precepts and principles.”

“In summarize my prior, long winded diatribe:

If we were them, we'd hate us too. And with cause.”

“We aren't them. If violence is the only answer they will hear, I think the current regime is more than willing to respond with emphasis.

I'm with PedXinq. I'd really like to know the authenticity of this letter.”

“Osama is cut from the same cloth as the boogereaters who shoot abortion doctors, and place bombs outside of catholic schools in N. Ireland

Of course since he's "different" then us it's easier to label his perversion of his religion as evil. And yah, I'd kill him given the chance”

“To clarify: I didn’t say he used what he viewed as our vices as an excuse to attack us. He hates our personal liberties as illustrated by the passage I quoted.

Again, in retrospect, Bush’s post 9-11 speech more honest than I originally thought it was when he said:

“Americans are asking, why do they hate us? They hate what we see right here in this chamber -- a democratically elected government. Their leaders are self-appointed. They hate our freedoms -- our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other.

They want to overthrow existing governments in many Muslim countries, such as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan. They want to drive Israel out of the Middle East. They want to drive Christians and Jews out of vast regions of Asia and Africa.

These terrorists kill not merely to end lives, but to disrupt and end a way of life. With every atrocity, they hope that America grows fearful, retreating from the world and forsaking our friends. They stand against us, because we stand in their way.” ”

“lee...

I find your comments deeply offensive.”

“Fritz --

Do you drive and SUV? Or go to church??”

“Fritz --

Do you drive an
SUV? Or go to church??”

“"If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation."

Osuma Bin Hitler

My answer, bring it on rat bastard. I could counter almost everything that dude said. Off the top of my head..

Seems to be a "jewish" conspiracy here - sound familiar?

The Taliban destroyed Buddhist statues in Afhganistan, why should we, by your own law (revenge), take out a few mosques?

I've said this before here, and I'll say it again, in order to win wars, we have to fight to the level of the enemy to win, no matter the cost.

This dude has got to go, and I hope many of his followers suffer during the process.

The world needs another Ghandi to stop this madness, and drown out lunatics like Osuma.”

“We drive my wife's SUV to church lee, and I chose to ignore #&%!$s.”

“Thanks for posting that Violin.”

“Something tells me the American media won't print it.”

“lee..."no" and "not as much as I would like" but that is quite irrelevant.”

“People use a percieved intellect as a crutch too, imagine that!”

“This is important, because - if I understand correctly - Moslems aren't allowed to violently attack Christians and Jews unless they (the Moslems) are attacked first.
pedxing
01:57:05 PM
11/25/02

Although this is what is often preached in America, actions speak louder than words. American Islam doctrine is actually much different to its foreign practices. One example is the unimaginable persecutions in Sudan (also on every continent in the world), which western media has ignored. There are many more martyrs today than there were in the days of the Roman Empire. Over 164,000 people were murdered for simply telling others about Christ in 1999 alone.”

“Buddha - -

You must have missed the ironic and funny part of my diatribe --

I absolutely agree with YOU. (and donman for that matter).

I would absolutely sanction using a tatical nuclear weapon if I thought that enough of Osama and his lietenants were gathered in the same radius.

I say take them out, without qualms.”

“No one has ever won a war fought over one of these...

For that matter no one ever wins a war...BOTH sides lose.

Has Osama ever been known to wear a BLUE turban?”

“oooh, a nostradamus (sp?) reference.

As an American, I happen to think that we won that liitle ol war with England a few hundred years ago. So sometimes people do win a war.”

“My point (if indeed I had one):

is that it is about power, on both sides of the equation.


The US should not pretend that we are innocent, or even that we are "right". We want to a)protect our oil, b) protect our oil and c) protect our oil.

Our interference in the middle east, to protect our oil, as put a big spotlight on us, and a big target on our forehead.

To preserve our right to drive to Hooters in our SUV . . .we are willing, as a nation, to prop up Israel, make deals with the Saudis, and go to war with Iraq.

Here's a question. When Iraq invaded Kuwait did we send 500,000 troops because a)it was our morla duty to defend a small helpless nation or b) it was our god-given right to defend the oil supplies for our SUVs???

OKAY Second question: When The Tutsis and Hutus were slaughtering each other in some nameless African country . . . and the death toll amounted to 500,000 or more, did we send troops becuase a) we wanted to stop the carnage, b) after WWII and the holocaust we knew the horrors of genocide or c) we wanted to preserve stability in the region??

Trick question. We didn't send troops. There was no oil.


There is NO moral, or religious high ground here (hence my broadside on religion).

ITS NOT ABOUT MORALS AND RIGHT AND WRONG.

It's about OUR way of life versus THEIR way of life (or lack thereof). THEY have the OIL that we need, and we are therefore bound to muck around over there. There is no right, wrong, or relgion to it.”

“We will have to fight this fight forever. It will never go away. There is no political expediency.

The best we can do is to make some attempt to extend ourselves to the moderate Arab states as best we can. At some point, that means taking a hard line with Israel.

If I were an Israel, I would be all in favor of wiping out the Palestians. But as a third party, American, I would like to see the Creation of a palestian state out of land from the Gaza strip nd West bank. I would like to see the settlors packed up and shipped home. In boxes if need be.

Then . . . if bombers kept crossing into the redefined shrunken Israel, THEN you can kill them with impunity. NOw its all mixedup and ill-defined. Lend defintion to it, then kill everyone who breaks with the definition.

We have the power to impose it. Why not? It might help secure our oil. Make friends with some Arabs.”

“I think most people know we went to Kuwiat to save our oil interest in that area.

The real problem is that the oil companies in this country do not want to uncap the oil wells that are sitting idle here. We need to open these oil wells up and use them instead of trying to drill in Alaska.
Of course since Bush has relaxed the air pollution rules maybe we might see these oil companies start firing up there companies here first but somehow I doubt it.”

“As far as my relgious views go:

If you enjoy as spirtual relationship of some sort, and it makes you a whole person, round you out and keeps you from stabbing your neighbor, I think thats fantastic. I respect that (previous comments notwithstanding).

BUT . . .when you start arguing that MY way is the only way. Or MY god is better than YOUR god. Or my "messenger of god" [jesus, mohamed, buddha . . .whoever] is better than yours, well . . .to me thatsjust all Bull$hit.

That is like arguing that MY imaginary green headed space alien has a better zappo ray gun that YOUR big purple headed space alien and therefore MINE is right and more powerful and YOURs is wrong.

Its all a fiction folks.

If I make something up. And you make something up. How can either of us argue the superiority of either fictional being??

It just doesn't make sense.


Its about the power. Those who have it, those who don't. We hae it . . .but the source of some of our power is THEIR oil.

So we have to go to THEIR country to get our POWER.

Tricky tricky tricky.”

“I remember the good old days when someone lee would be dragged down to the town square and the whole town would kick his a@@, drive him to the edge of twon and told to never come back. Ahhhh! Those were the days!”

“Norman --

I have thought about that. Most recently while watching "the Crucible". Based on the Salem witch trials.

There was this dude and his wife living apart from town (I think he is the guy that slept with the girl who started the whole witch hue and cry).

Anyhooo . . .this guy and his wife really didn't have a lot of use for the puritanical bent of their neighbors. They needed the protection of the town, and the trade and supplies that the connection brought . . .but could easily have done without the religious B.S.

The westward expansion of the colonial US was led by people like me Norman. People who, in a time of intense conformity to strict moral and religious code, lived or, in your words, were driven, literarally to the outskirts of society.

Don't get me wrong . . . a tremendous amount of our "formal" expansion was done by organized religion, the Mormons opened the west.

But those first few, brave, independent soles were folks like me Norman. Folks who couldn't abide by the bounds of religious purtanism that was arbitrary, subjective, puntative, very much looking like Osama's Islam in fact. Not true Christianity as we think of it . ..but a bastardized form, used to keep people in line , to threaten them. For god sake . ..they HUNG non-conformers in the name of Christinaty.

I would have spent most of my time in the stocks.

Ahhhh the good old days.


So . . .THANKS Norman . . . I imagine that is the nicest thing that will be said to me on this thread!!!!!”

“i understand some of lee's thoughts.

other nations and peoples may very well have reason to dislike the US, we are far from perfect, but to turn to violence to express those sentiments is still very wrong and we must do everything possible to stop such violent expression.”

“Violin --

sorry not to acknowledge your existence.

Its nice that your wife let you drive the SUV on Sundays . . .what day does she let you wear her strap on??


Buddha --

You are absolutley right (that twice that I have agreed with you if you are counting): Intellectuallism IS used as a crutch.

Between that and religion though, I still have to vote for what has a chance of being based on fact rather than something which is surely fiction.”

“lee, you are one wordy guy. I bet that soapbox gets heavy to carry sometimes.”

“Nahhhh -- -

It not that bad. But thanks for your concern Hyway!!

I haven't had a good fight on TT in ages.


Looks like this isn't going to be one either.


Talk about the good old days Norman . . ..God, Guns, Guts, ,a dn of, course . . ..DOGS . . . .


boy . ..those were some rowdy fights.

Long live the SUVs!!!!!!


and, of course HOOTERS and the lycra and spandex (both petroleum products) that the waitresses wear.”

“I'm all for the peace thing personally. Peace, peace, peace all around. It's not doing anybody . . . us, them, the other guys . . . any good going around blowing #&%!$ up, shootin', maimin' threatening, designing unimaginabley terrifying weapons 'o mass destruction, etc. I tend to agree w/ Lee on some of the religious matters, but there is this one piece of scripture from the 'ol Bible. And once upon a time a peacenike sort, named Jimmy Carter, spouted it off. "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they are the sons of God." It's in Matthew, I can't remember the exact scripture. Seems pretty reasonable. Make peace, live good life. I'm not saying I necessary believe the exact idea of being a son of God or anything, but you get my point.”

“lee, you are one wordy guy. I bet that soapbox gets heavy to carry sometimes.”

“I know. The silly girl who wants peace. Ignore her and she'll go away.”

“"Over 164,000 people were murdered for simply telling others about Christ in 1999 alone."

I'd like to see the evidence for this statistic.”

“Could it be that the closest thing that most of them have to free press is Al Jazeera?”