“http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/cm/member-reviews/-/A188MFMJOZPMU7/1/ref=cm_cr_auth/102-3411304-0746545


here is a link to a review of a book on amazon.com . the book makes the assertion that i made earlier, which some of you seem to disagree with. i have not read the book but have heard alot about it.


the review gives the book 5 stars;


I began my study of Islam well before the September 11th attacks on America, because I felt that Christians (as a whole) had too long, misunderstood (even ignored) the nearly one billion Muslims that live upon the earth today. Having read numerous texts on the subject (including extensive portions of the Quran, and other modern Islamic literature), I have found the details contained within Robert Morey's book to be not only insightful, but accurate AND BALANCED. He compares past and present writings, and teachings of Islam, against those contained within the very text of the Quran and Hadith themselves. And as a result, he forwards questions concerning the true intent (purpose, focus) of the author (and the designers) of the Islamic faith - Muhammad (and the caliphs that succeeded him). Now, this very statement may be considered by some Muslims to be 'blasphemous'. But, my intent is neither insult nor degradation. It is simply a response to some all too obvious facts.
With all the attention that is currently being focused upon Islam, many Muslims are feeling quite literally, 'under the microscope'. And this may be true. But, as Muslim scholars have purported (in perhaps, less 'focused' times), the truth will reveal itself. Therefore, I invite Muslim adherants -- let's look for the truth, together!

I can quite truthfully say, this book is NOT vindictive. Neither is it hateful nor 'bigoted'. Its challenges have been raised from within the text of the Quran and Hadith themselves.

I for one, want to know the truth about Islam. And, from what I have read, Robert Morey has raised some very serious questions concerning the teachings and underlying thrust of Islam. Questions that all Muslims need to examine honestly for themselves.”

“Strat – You have to admit that it is a highly inflammatory statement to make, especially since you haven’t even read the book. There are books printed by holocaust deniers, racists and all forms of hateful people. You don’t need to disseminate their crap for them.”

“The book looks to be a piece of hugely partisan Islam bashing... shedding much more heat than light.

Just look at the guys other titles. He is clearly a pamphleteer, slamming Masons, Jehovahs witnesses, Mormons, astrologers, believers in reincarnation, and defending the faith.

The historical claim he makes and
you (Strat) repeats is one that requires serious historical exploration and support. It is a claim about the origins, not the current use of Islam.”

“"Over 164,000 people were murdered for simply telling others about Christ in 1999 alone."

I'd like to see the evidence for this statistic."
pedxing
04:40:28 PM
11/25/02

This statistic comes straight out of the World Christian Encyclopedia and only includes know deaths. If you’re interested also check out Voice of the Martyrs, an organization that assist the persecuted church worldwide. The book Jesus Freak also has this statistic and goes on to mention that more Christians have died in the last decade than in the entire 1st century after Christ. This also doesn't take into account those being held in prison.”

“I have a couple of Jehovah's witnesses buried in my back field, so you may want to knock that number up to 164,002.

Cheers.”

“LOL, that's funny.”

“i have heard the author interviewed a couple time on da radio(GASP). he makes alot of scence to me. it's kinda like someone on this thread said, the common folk are good, it's the leaders that are dangerous. the ones who teach them to kill someone that insults islam. kinda like 220 people gettin killed in africa after a riot about a newspaper acticle. salmon rushdie had a little book ya'll may remember, the satanic verses. i don't really care enough about them to learn about them alot and read books about them. i understand that they will kill you and me if given the chance. i understand that they hate us and why. it is down to the point of killing them before they kill us. they have declared war on us. so, ya'll pretend they're nice if you want. i could never have imagined that such evil even exist on this earth. how can it be defended? only with the sword will the problem ever be solved. and by their undeniable, brutal imperialism, the problem will get worse every day, untill it is solved.



i'm sorry, but that's the way i feel.....now get outta here...”

“lee, at least your own agenda hasnt clouded your ability to approach this subject objectively.

While attempting to take the intellectual highground you hurl insults to all of those with faith. Its incredibly ironic that HOLIER THAN THOU is currently playing on the radio. Did you request it for yourself?

You are just itchin for a chance to bash those who are religious. Thats pretty sad, as you earlier acted like you are a "live and let live " fella, but your anger is just too apparant in your posts.”

“like a theif in the night......”

“As I mentioned a looong time ago on this thread...Why do they hate us? Maybe because we can drink our water, and they can't drink their oil.”

“Lots of people pin blame on Americans for not understanding other cultures. But I'm not sure that the rest of the world really understands us. We're being represented by CNN and MTV and corporations everyday. The everyday people don't make the screen.”

“I heard what makes the European news services. Every story about Bush opens with him strutting around wearing six shooters and a cowboy hat.”

“just give me a button to push”

“.

Don't hate us because we're beautiful!”

“a friend of mine said something kinda funny the other day...

"arabs are so angry because there are no trees over there."

they hate us because we have trees and lots of water.”

“Birch --

My religion hating comments were a bit over the top.

Here is a more accurate portrayal of what I really think about religion(not that it matters one iota):

On an individual level, what ever makes a person whole, or rounds them out, keeps them sane, gives them peace of mind, reverance for their surroundings or stops them from killing their neighbors works for me. That is the "live and let live" aspect of my religious tolerance. I would never challenge or disrespect an individual's, or friend's right to worship as they choose (hey, some of my best friends and family members are dyed in the wool Irish catholics)



On a global level . . .I DO, as you suggest, have deep seated loathing and disrespect for MOST if not ALL of the organized religions on the earth.

When you have folks in this country like Pat Robertson, Jerry Fawell and the Southern based Christian right, Cardinal O'Connor in Boston, protecting child abusers, The Catholic worldwide church that preaches love and compassion and help your brother yet is the wealthiest organization in the world, with a huge cache of money, gold, art treasures, real estate and other worldy possessions, the radical muslims killing folks in Nigeria over a Miss WOrld contest . . .I am sorry, but they can barely be called a civilized people by modern standards.

I do not have enough time (literally, I have to run to a client meeting in 12 inches of snow) or energy to detail how deep my loathing of organized religion goes.

Birch - - The cause at the base of that loathing isn't good regular folks like you and Sass. Of course not.

The cause, the base, of my loathing is what I see as hypocritical self serving power hungry church leaders of EVERY religion, in EVERY country.

The top of church structures . .no matter the church . . . .isn't about a God, or a religion . . .its about POWER, MONEY, POLITICS, DISINFORMATION, LYING, STEALING etc etc etc

I firmly believe, perhaps routed in the fact that I don't believe in a higher power of any particular sort, that the ONLY reason for organized religion is to serve the ORGANIZERS . ..not to serve the parishioners . . .good folks like yourself . . .but to serve the church leaders . . .to shape messages, to accumulate wealth and power.

If you can convince people that YOU carry the message that will allow them to ascend to a glorious afterlife after struggling here on earth, the YOU are one powerful dude.

Again . . especially because I don't belive in an afterlife, the whole thing strikes me as one big elaborate hoax.


And then . . . to heap insult to injury there are WARS, TERRORISTS ACTS, GENOCIDES, LAND GRABS, SUPPRESSION, OPPRESSION etc etc all perpetrated in the name of one religion or another. In the name of one fiction or another . . .all a sham for power.


It makes me sick. It makes me puke. Yes Birch . . . I detest the concept of organized religions. They puport to stand for good . . .and I cleary support and live within the judiac-christian boundries of moral and ethical conduct . . .but fomr my view that is a thin veneer for most churches.

It disgusts me.”

“A couple of those nice looking young white boys came a-knockin' at my house a while ago.

They were sportin' badges that said something about Ladders and Saints.

I sold them into slavery to the Sultan of Brunei for some good money.

Missionaries........

For many years there has been much wailing and gnashing of teeth over the deaths of missionaries in Third World countries.

Imagine outsiders coming onto YOUR turf and introducing such concepts as shame, modesty, and guilt.
They tell you that you are doomed unless you follow their way.

Then the "saved" people start wearing clothes and using products from the "modern" world such as diapers and soft drinks and shoes, etc.

In at least one way these people are being made into consumers.”

“lee, I like your perspective.”

“they hate us because our country is very scenic with lots of backpacking trails while they drive beat up toyotas through ugly deserts. who wouldn't be miserable if they had to live like that?

save some arabs, plant trees!”

“I agree with many who have posted on this thread. The common people wouldn't hate us, if not spurred on by over-zealous and self-righteous mental cases.
I would like to see the US as a country take the opportunity to help rebuild places like Afghanistan and Palestine. If we are a super power, we should show some super compassion.”

“do you agree with me dunadan?

what we need
is a muslim
johnny appleseed!

alright, i'm done fooling around”

“I can also say that religion disgusts me and yes there have been so many terrible events throughout history that have occurred in the name of religion. However, I also believe there is a difference between religion and a personal relationship your God. So many times we only see religion through the media spotlight. Remember there are those who have dedicated their life to truly helping others without seeking power, wealth, praise, or notoriety. They are the ones behind the scene that are usually never heard about. That's what I personally consider true faith through a relationship with God. Just my .02.”

“there is a difference between religion and a personal relationship your God. So many times we only see religion through the media spotlight. Remember there are those who have dedicated their life to truly helping others without seeking power, wealth, praise, or notoriety. They are the ones behind the scene that are usually never heard about. That's what I personally consider true faith through a relationship with God.

Most of these people would be this way if organized religion never existed.”

“I think we could take em' in dodgeball!”

“Mutt I agree and refuse to allow an organization to hinder my relationship. Of course from my previous statements I am a follower of Jesus Christ. However, the changing point for me was when I realized through reading about Jesus how opposed he was to religion (institutionalized twisted truth).”

“I've got nothing against religion organized, individual or disorganized. Religion has motivated some of the most wonderful things human beings have ever done, and it has justified some of the worse. Sometimes religion moves people to reach out across all kinds of boundaries to help others, sometimes it inspires and justifies building. The same bible that was used to justify slavery and Apartheid in South Africa motivated people to oppose it. IMHO slavery in the US would have existed without Christianity, but without the Christian abolitionists it would have lasted very much longer. During the holocaust in Europe, many of the most courageous rescuers of Jews and others who were to be exterminated by the Nazis got their motivation from their Christian love of God and humanity and their courage their belief in the afterlife.

When I look through what I know of history (which has big limits), I can see places and times where Islamic culture seemed more humane than that European Christian culture. I also look now and see calls (like the one this week in Nigeria, or the one years ago against Rushdie) taken up in the Moslem world for killing people who insult Mohammed. I don’t see calls like that in the West these days. Nowhere in the Western world is heresy a capital offense.

On the other hand, it was less than a century ago that mobs could kill a black man in the USA for looking at a woman in the wrong way. Heretics have been stoned, hung and burned in the Christian world in the past. Going back much further, Moslem Spain was a light of relative tolerance in Europe until 1492. Judaism, study of the Greek philosophers, Christianity flourished in many ways. When Spain became a Christian nation, what followed were: were forced conversions, expulsions of Jews who were robbed of their possessions, the Spanish Inquisition, and expeditions of slaughter, theft and conquest into the new worldly (the conquest of what is now Mexico was hugely horrifying) --- all done in the name of Christianity. I’m not trying to lay blame on the Bible or on Christianity – just saying that you can’t tell the good guys from the bad guys based on the holy books that they carry or the God they say pray to.

Yes, Islamic imperialism was brutal. Yes, predominantly nations in North Africa and the Middle East Moslems had a highly developed slave trade of their own before the slave trade to the new world kicked. off. I want to puke when some modern Islamists claim that imperialism and slavery are only a Christian thing.

If you can’t tell the good guys from the bad guys on the basis of their holy books, the name they give God, or the slogans they utter – the only solution is careful independent thought, close observation and serious self-education.”

“Trailhound --

AMEN!

(I mean it).


There ABSOLUTELY are good individuals . . .heck, good parishes, and church within larger organizations that truly, . . .truly . . .not "believe" per se . . .because everyone professes to "believe" . . .but folks who actually walk the walk, who actually live as they preach.

Those are good people.


I think where I offend (one of the many places I offend) people who are spiritual and who profess a religous belief, is that their religious identity is so bound up in the institutions I am attacking.

I can't imagine a Catholic, for instance, who would be comfortable with my rabid attacks. Let alone folks who consider themselves part of the broad spectrum of the christian right.

I guess my only answer is . . .if you are offended . . .remember that I am attacking the organization . .not YOUR relationship with GOD. Now . ..if your relationship with the ORGANIZATION is more important than your relationship to your God . ..then I suppose I may be attacking you too. SO be it.”

“pedxing -

youare way too nice and rationale . . .I need to see flex of foam in the corners of your mouth if you are going to be allowed to continue in what has now become a religion brou-ha-ha”

“Lee: while I sympathize with some of what you say, some of it would be offensive to just about anyone who honors any religious feelings whatsoever. Some of what you said, exemplifies the kind of totalistic antagonistic thinking that offends me when I see it in religious zealots.

I cut and paste, for example, below:
"All religion is unadulterated crap. There is NOTHING TO CHOOSE between islam, judism and christianity.

Religion is a crutch for weekmnded idiots."”

“Thoughts Good! Slogans Bad!”

“An anti-slogan slogan?”

“UP With People!!!

Now there's a nice slogan.....gag, puke, bletch............”

“Geez... Pathman, I was just trying to fit in and join the brou-ha-ha. Are you saying that the medium should match the message?
That the form should match the content?

That unreasonable arguments seldom strike a blow for reason?”

“Ped --

Fine just fine .. . .if you think that throwing my own comments back in my face is a fair way to fight!!

PS: It should have been flecs of foam . .. I didn't mena to imply that you should have muscular spittle”

“Ped --

To address my wonderful quotes (just for fun):

1. All religion is unadulterated crap. There is NOTHING TO CHOOSE between islam, judism and christianity.

This statement is, of course, true.

You can quibble about Jesus or no jesus, messiah or no messiah, God Allah Mohammed and all the other manifestations of the different religions all you want to

BUT . . .at their core, the premiss on which they are founded, is that there is a higher power. There is some bearded guy in the 'heavens' who is created us, and is omnipotent, and omniscient.

And it is at THAT premiss, that leap of "faith", that all religions break down. They are all a constructed fiction. Constructed to provide answers where humans seemingly can't find any.

At that very basic level . . .there indeed is NOTHING TO CHOOSE BETWEEN THEM. Futhermore . . .if the premiss is false then all arguements that flow from it are false. Arguing that your god or my god, or your method of worship or my my mehtod of worship are more right or more wrong is IRRELEVANT. It just doesn't matter. It is, in the words of a great man, unadulterated crap.

2.Religion is a crutch for weekmnded idiots

Well . . .that was a little harsh. I have since rattled on about live and let live, and whatever makes you happy is fine. And it is.

I happen to believe that the concepts of religion that view a higher power as an all knowing, all seeing all powerfull "Creator" are a based on a fiction. And that people need that fiction (there is a god, there is a heaven) to help them through daily life. It is unfair of me to characterize every such person as a weakminded idiot.

I concede only that I was undiplomatic in my choice of words. I have a hard time conceding the underlying opinion.”

“regarding the comparision between extremists, either agnostic or religious you are right . .both are obnoxious.


This is the ONLY place I "evangelicize" (sp???) my agnostic convictions with such fervor.

I learned my lesson as a junior in high school.

I used to rant and rave and carry on in English Lit. . . .

Well . . .I started to date a girl who was very involved in Youth Pilgrim Fellowship at her church. Her friends gave her pamphlets encouraging her not to date me because of my anti-religious views.

So i went underground. I started going to YPF with her (and them) . . .singing songs . ...group hugs . . .cirlce time . .. bible reading . ..prayers . . .the whole nine yards.


She was a lot of fun. Absolutely worth comprimising the strident expression of my views.









Ped --

If I thought I was gonna get into the pants of any cute girls on this board . . .I might tone it down a notch or two.


And on THAT note!!

Happy Thanksgiving”

“Do not blame the failings of man on God.”

“In the spirit of fun... lemmee go at what ya said Lee. I will be trying to focus on your contradictions:

"1) 1. All religion is unadulterated crap"

A) Actually, you seem to be saying now - that the central premise of religion is wrong. There might be some good ideas stuck on some where, but the central premise is wrong.

However, you are not defending the term unadulterated. In fact, you are saying its "crap" at the core. It may or may not be "adulterated" with something else.

B)I don't think the major religions are disprovable in their core tenets.


2) "BUT . . .at their core, the premiss on which they are founded, is that there is a higher power. There is some bearded guy in the 'heavens' who is created us, and is omnipotent, and omniscient."

Nope. This is definitely not true of many religions, including Taoism, Buddhism and many forms of paganism.

In fact, I'd say that at the core of Christianity is the idea that this remarkable being named Jesus lived and taught. This seems to be objectively true.

3) "Futhermore . . .if the premiss is false then all arguements that flow from it are false."

Wrong again.
False premise: "Drivers are trying to kill me."
Arguements that flow: "Therefore I should be very careful crossing the street."
"Therefore, it is important to look both ways before crossing the street."
True arguments can flow from a false premise.

Anyway my main point was that one didn't have to be deeply attached to an organized religion to be offended and I think you see my point.

Anyway, Eris lives and Eris loves you, because you have done so much here to further the the cause of strife and discord that she loves so well.

Nonetheless, she has found it necessary to put a curse on your Turkey because of your implication that she is a bearded omnipotent man.

Hail Eris!”

“It would appear that lee isn't really sure exactly WHAT he believes. I'm sure a shifting belief system is easier to live by though. Even though I cracked on him in the beginning I still respect his choice not to believe. Too bad he doesn't reciprocate. It would appear from his venom that he is far more insulted by others believing than believers are of his insults. Kind of gives me a warm fuzzy feeling all over.”

“Whatever gets you through the night 'salright, 'salright
It's your money or life 'salright, 'salright
Don't need a sword to cut through flowers oh no, oh no

Whatever gets you through your life 'salright, 'salright
Do it wrong or do it right 'salright, 'salright
Don't need a watch to waste your time oh no, oh no

Hold me darlin' come on listen to me
I won't do you no harm
Trust me darlin' come on listen to me, come on listen to me
Come on listen, listen

Whatever gets you to the light 'salright, 'salright
Out the blue or out of sight 'salright, 'salright
Don't need a gun to blow your mind oh no, oh no

Hold me darlin' come on listen to me
I won't do you no harm
Trust me darlin' come on listen to me, come on listen to me
Come on listen, listen”

“...and He was more popular than Jesus Christ!.”

“Why do they hate us is the equivalent of saying why do Catholic Priests molest kids.... some do some don't... I'm just upset the gov hasn't stepped in on the Papal Mafia”

“have a nice day”

“i hate ferrits!”

“They don't actually hate 'us'... they hate Falwell and Robertson and have terrible aim.”

“Fnord never sleeps.

Hail Eris!”

“Lee, I appreciatte the explanations for your opinion. You and I could go back and forth for a while. As a matter of fact if this thread were here one year ago I would be itchin for a fight. Nothing good could come of this becoming a heated argument (as it surely would).

No offense here, I geuss I ultimately dont care what another feels about my Faith or anothers.Its personal.I only posted what I did earlier in an attempt to hold a mirror up so you could see who you portray yourself as versus who you may ctually be.

The common thread between the atrocities you mentioned isnt religion, its mankind. History has proven we are a nasty lot and will use any excuse for our own ends. EVERYONE at some point compromises what they believe in order to profit, it just gets dangerous when its not spontaneous,but a planned attack masked in goodness or virtue.The idea of being nice to a neighbor is always good even if your PERSONAL goal in neighborly kindness is sleeping with his wife. You cant blame the virtue of kindness, you blame the motive behind it.”

“my neighbor slept with my wife one time, cost me 99 years.....

























ok, not really, i got that off a country song...”

“PedXing is a high priest in the Church of reason.

Those of you that are trying to tie a particular religious group to all the evil of the world are being silly. History will forever teach that evil comes from men (or women) who lack conviction that each man deserves basic human dignity.

After that, it's all just about semantics.”