HELP w 4 season tents

“I'm kinda-sorta shopping for a 4 season tent. Spoke w someone at REI today who "seemed" to be knowlegeable, she started talking about the extra warmth of one tent vs. another. I am considering a 4 season tent not because of warmth, but for extra integrity in heavy snow-loads / high winds, etc. if I get caught in a winter storm. I've always thought that tents, any tent, couldn't really hold in temperature to any great extent. Whether you're warm or not depends more on your sleeping bag, pad, etc. I've primarily been sleeping in snow caves last few years, but this year plan on doing some BP trips on snowhoes & want to take a tent for shelter. Will my 3 season tent be adequate? Do those of you who have a true "4 season" tent find that it holds in warmth? Good tents are a lot of $$ I'd rather not spend if I don't need to...opinions, please, thanks!”

“Also interested in what constitutes a "4 season" tent in your mind. REI has the TNF Nebula on sale, $100 off normal price and it's billed as a 3/4 season "convertible". I always thought the definition of a 4 season was that it was, among other things, a 4 pole tent. The Nebula is a 3 pole...isn't that stretching it a bit?? Is that a 4 season tent just because that's what the advertising says, or, is there some way a consumer can determine for themselves whether it meets some standard??”

“Dang wanderer, first a GPS and now a new tent! I bet you got your eyes on some other stuff for this winter too. *G*

Hard to tell what's a pure 4 season vs. 3/4 convertibule based on the number of poles. After all, Bibler and ID are 2 pole tents and they are da bomb 4 seasoners. I picked up the Marmot Sanctum as a 2 person and gear winter tent or 2 person and 2 dog summer tent. It's described as a 4 season (4 pole) but it vents just fine for summer use in the Sierra's. It does not have as much mesh as a convertible. My sense is the "convertibles" might be better suited to more humid climes than what we have here. The Sanctum weighs in at a hefty 9 lbs though. So I may be in the market for a Bibler or ID myself for solos. Marmot also makes the lighter Up High which might be worth a look if you don't want to plunk down the bucks for a bib or ID.

As far as heat retention goes, well, smaller is logically better. But dang, if you've been sleeping in snow caves anything should feel like the Taj Mahal.

And last but not least, Happy Birthday!”

“If you don't mind spending the money and you like their design, Hilleberg is tough to beat.”

“Dana Design has a couple of nice 4 season tents.

Heavy at about 7 pounds, but if you want wind proof without clinking zippers, no flapping, fore and aft vestibules, AND some heat retention, Dana is the place to look first.

A good 4 season tent should have storm doors, and two vestibules if there's more than just you.
The vestibule needs to extend out from the tent at least two feet, and ground clearance of no more than four inches. Less is even better.

I got the 4 season tent thing wired.

I have been stuck far too many times way back in the bad old days with tents that were not weather worthy up here in the serious nasty weather zone.”

“That all sounds about right to me. I've got a slightly pre-historic SD Lookout ('convertible' 3-pole) that seems to put up with Southeast Winters well enough, though I *have* been drooling over photos of the Bibler Ahwahnee, lately (half the weight!). The Lookout has put up with a foot of wet snow without having to attach the internal guys.

I always thought it was the s-bag and pad that kept you warm, also. Whenever I've tried to close up a tent really tightly to hold in a little more warmth, what I got was mostly condensation.”

“Ah, now that is due to poor ventilation.

If you have spent any time in a 3 season tent, VS a solid 4 season, you can tell that if the tent is properly vented, you get little condensation and a warmer interior.

Air should flow from one end of the tent, at the bottom, to the other end of the tent, at the top.

It's not a constant stream of air, but it's enough to keep condenstation down to a minimum.”

“OK, Auntie M

What about the "snow" that forms inside the roof at about Zero?”

“I've been hesitent o post on this thread because I don't have much knowlege in this subject, but after research and thought I have come up with the itteligent idea that you will need a tent o ome form of shelter in the 4th season.”

“I've always thought that 4 season was the shape, design, and the ability to close off all mesh. I have a MH Trango 2 and love it.
I would like to buy the new MH Trango Assault, it's a little smaller but weighs far less. Check out the "evil magazine" (backpacker) they just did a review of 4 season tents.”

“I can understand the concept of a 3-season (spring, summer and fall) tent, and a 3-4 season convertible tent...

But shouldn't a 4-season tent, which is to be used in hardcore winter conditions, be more appropriately called a "1-season" tent?”

“Tommy T, My Love....

Sooner or later you gwine have to breathe.

If it's 10 degrees or less, yes, frost plumes will coat the ceiling of your tent with frosty fur.

That is why when it's that cold outside, the best place to winter camp is next to a hot spring.

Go from your bag into the water.

Stay there until it warms up outside, grab a beer and get back in the water.

Then go back to bed.”

“Another vote for the Hilleberg, Akto. Don't have mine yet, but Christmas can't be that far away...”

“You might also want to consider how long it is when packed. My Marmot breaks down to 20 inches, which will fit vertically in my pack without jacking the lid up. Some tents break down to 24 inches and wouldn't so well inside a medium pack.”

“IMHO a 4 season tent and a convertible are the same thing. Enough mesh for summer, with ability to zip off in winter.

The 1-season tent is also called a "mountaineering tent". I have a Garuda Jana that falls into that category. Hardly any mesh, vents from rear floor to front top. Steep-walled, snow-shedding design, makes maximun use of interior space for those long tent-bound days. Light colored (yellow) interior for same reason. Try spending a few days in a blue-walled tent, you'll lose your mind. Dark floor so it drys quickly in the morning sun. Free-standing to make it easier to pitch on snow. Heavy-duty poles. Designed for max heat-retention and strength in extreme weather. You wouldn't want to use it in summer.

I also have a Hilleberg Akto that is 4-season. It has enough set-up options to make it useful year-round.

Both tents rock. Check 'em out.”

“I had my Moss "Outland" completley buired one trip. A "Solid" three pole design. Too small for most though, with not the best venting.

If you don't mind getting up to clear during the night, stay with the one you have until it fails you.”

“I borrowed a Kelty Assault for the last Llama trip. 5 lb. mountaineering tent. I think it is $100 over priced. Retail is $450, but you can get it on sale.”

“Until last year, the Walrus Rapeede was a great 4 season tent (2 poles, with one built in, 6 lb). This year, the Stephenson's warmlight 2R (2 poles, 2.13 lb, 4 season). Only been in 1 snowstorm with the Warmlite, but it held up and I stayed warm when it was 10 deg out.”

“A SD Omega is the best 3-4 season convertible tent IMHO.

Because I have one, and I'll be damned if I go out and spend more $$$ to get another tent before it falls apart!”

“Snow Nymph - It just doesn't seem like the Warm Lite should be rated a 4 season tent. Do you think it really is? Just wondering.”

“the Warmlite held up on the Vivian Creek trail in April. We had breakfast, lunch and dinner while it snowed on us. I had to shake the tent off several times during the night, but it wasn't a problem. I used it in the Sierras during a 4 day rain storm and I stayed dry. I'm happy with it. My other option was my OR bivy. In rain storms I had to wait for the rain to stop before I could get in it. The Rapeede was great, but I can't carry a 6 lb tent.”

“I was on the same trip as Snow Nymph during that snow storm. It was great. I used a Marmot Sactum (an expedition tent). Which is strong against the wind and pretty warm. But is heavy (approx.11 lbs.) Mel is correct about the proper ventilation reducing the condensation.
Snow Nymphs Warmlite is a great tent. And easy to set up. Which is a plus in a snow storm. Also it is with out a doubt a good 4 season tent. And is light. Real light for the strength it has.

After that trip, every time there is a snow storm, I want to head back into the mountains. It is different than anything I have experienced before in backpacking. Of course good gear is critical. And some experience sure helps. LOL”

“I used my "Garuda Atman" in the snow, but never in heavy snowing. Simple single wall two pole set up with ski poles and ice axe for stakes. Great tent for the weight.(under 5lbs.)”

“we LOVE our colman peak one constilation 4 season tent. it is a little on the heavey side but I have personally seen this tent go through a rain storm with 70 mile an hour winds and not a drop inside. It is warmer in the winter than my 3 season tent and its big enough for 3 comfortably”

“I had a Rapeed but returned it after about 4 trips. Great weight to room ratio and solid tent but could not keep the rainfly off the inner tent. Walrus actually said it was a bit of a design flaw and offered to sew in extra tie down loops so I could guy it out with more stakes. I decided not to go that route.

I now have a Marmot Swallow convertible. Have used in in snow and driving rain and love it. Good room for two and gear. Granted, a bit heavier than the Rapeed but not too bad at 7.5 pounds. Also, it looks like the LEM from the old Apollo days which is a big bonus. ;)

I'm intrigued by Snow's Warmlite, I'll have to take a closer look. Does it handle wind? I'd be a bit nervous with a two pole tent in really high winds. That and the typically wet snow we get up here can put a real load on things.”

“Eureka Assault 2XT. Three pole design, two doors, two vestibules, about 7.5 lbs. I am trying to sell it for I probably won't try to haul it when going solo. My family doesn't BP in the cold much so I will find something smaller and lighter.”

“I have a Sierra Designs Stretch Dome that is like a bomb shelter. Good for two people in winter, split the weight on a sled or in packs.”

“CC,
I sewed 2 loops on the side of the rainfly (Rapeede). Luved the tent but couldn't see spending 30 days in it.

Had the Warmlite out this weekend in the wind. Held up pretty well.

Once had it whipped around like a click-clack in a monsoon. My fault, didn't have it properly staked, and threw all my gear in it and stood outside (duh!) But then again, it might have whipped me around in it too.”

“Has anyone had any experience with the Integral Designs Sola?”

“If you got the $$$$$ for it, this looks rather interesting.....Bag”

“I am using a Mtn Hardwear Kiva...we've had it some terrific storms the last couple of years and it was sometimes the only tent still standing the next morning (we used the side guy lines with our ski's)

I haven't used a tent with a floor in the winter in years...with the Kiva (or a Megamid) you can dig down, or dig trenches in the tent for sitting and standing room (a huge plus!!) wear your boots in the tent and you don't have to worry about tracking snow inside. Another plus is the pee factor...if your in a blizzard (or just lazy as hell) you can stomp a hole, pee in it, then cover it up with snow. With two people and their gear it's actually spacious. Condensation on the walls is usually not a problem because of the size of the tent, you just don't hit the walls...beside's I've seen as much in a lot of the regular four season tents...you gotta VENT the things, it's physics.

It weights a tad over 4lb, has 85 sq ft of floor area and pitches in about 2 min with practice.

Check it out...
Kiva

Oh, yea...the best snow stakes I have ever used (next to dead men) are these, made by Kifaru (Patrick Smith from Mountainsmith, they make my Tipi)..they are about the size of arrow shafts, 18 or 32 inches long, weight next to nothing and work better then anything I have ever used....plus they go in seconds (you just slid them in at a 45 degree angle)
Tent pegs

You can make your own if you can find some good aluminum seamless tubing...put an eye hook in one end with a loop of cord so you can pull it out and your ready to go.”

“mtnsteve - I've been looking into the Kifaru stuff for a while now. I almost bought the Para Tipi last year, but went with the Hilleberg Akto instead. The snow pegs are a great idea. The sleds are killer, too. Are you a hunter? I enjoyed reading Patrick Smith's essays on pack hunting and the development and philosophy of the "Rambling Rifle" concept.”

“No, I'm not a hunter..Patrick Smith and I go way back, to his Mountainsmith days. I been fortunate to be able to help with testing of some of his products over the years. He always has a note book out, asking questions of every one around him about ways to improve his products. Most other outfits ask their PR people what to build next and what features to add. A friend of mine is testing mountaineering jackets for Mountain Hardwear, she was given a prototype to use in the Himalayas...when she complained that the hood wouldn't fit over her helmet, she was told that most of their product was being bought by yuppies and college kids and that they didn't like the look of the hood when it was that big.........

Do you have any pic's of your Hilleberg Akto..I have heard of them, seen drawings and such, but never seen one...I would like to compare it to my Kiva and Megamid....



My names Steve and I'm a gear junkie............”

“mtnsteve - The Akto isn't floorless like the Kiva. But it is a very unique design. Super easy for one person to pitch in extreme weather, and impeccable materials and quality.

Here is a link to some pics of the tent in Utah this spring.

Akto Pics”

“Oooops, my mistake..I was thinking of the Asage, which is very similar to the tipi.
Asage
It's another worthy tent to look at for winter use.

I checked out your Hilleberg Akto, looks neat...found a great review on it...seems to be built with the usual Swedish quality.
Review
Ever use it in the snow?
m-nutz.....
Cool pic's, some day I'm going to check out the canyon lands/desert. May have to give canyoneering (I thinks that how it's spelled) a shot.”

“mtnsteve - Yeah, I've used the Akto in the snow, works great. Used it several times Jan and Feb. I try to go out to one of several wilderness areas in the Shawnee NF every time we get a good snow.

The canyon country is great. I definately reccomend a trip out there.”

“Snow Nymph, that Warmlite looks like just the tent I am looking for. May I ask what options you chose, windows etc?”

“Snow Nymph, do the tents still come with the large diameter magnesium poles, if so I have a set from an old (30years+) 2R if you ever need them. The tent has seen so much uv that you can put your finger through the fabric...I never could bring myself to throw it away.

Snow Nymph, this looks like your stomping grounds...name this pass and lake
”

“Pennsy, I got the large door and no windows. I'm 4'11", and I can lay down across the tent. I got the light grey and light blue (send a SASE and ask for samples of the material). They added the dark purple bottom. Dark colors don't let the light in. The grey blends in, so its not an eyesore. SnowDude HATED the Rapeede's hot pink vestibule. The Warmlite blends in with the rocks and sky.

mtnsteve, that looks like Contact Pass & Temple Crag over 2nd (maybe 1st) Lake????
And yes, the tent still has the large poles. I've already replaced the poles once (after the monsoon). Got any carbon fiber stays for the Mountainsmith Mountainlight laying around?
I have to admit, I too, am a gear junkie.....spent a lot to lighten the pack for the JMT.”

“You know your mountains, woman....
Poles are yours, I suspect your more likely to be in weather that breaks em.
Sorry, can't help on the carbon stays....
Anyone need a couple hundred feet of old climbing rope...gotta pick it up yourself though.

Enjoy your new tent Pennsy Hiker

Wanderer, what did you decide on for your new tent?”

“Cool! We'll probably do the Tipi thing New Years. I can pick them up at that time.

Pennsy, if you come New Years, you can check out the Warmlite.

Hope to find somewhere to ride the snowboards up there!”

“Okay, I'm narrowing it down. I like this one:

”

“OOps, this one:

"http://www.integraldesigns.com/tents-frame.htm"”

“Very cool tents.

I have a friend that has the MK3, he loves it. I did hear him and his partner one morning squabbling in the tent...."&%$$#& careful +&*%#$ don't do that, *&@^$%# NO, damit, NO....you hit the &#$% wall"..........

Apparently in the right conditions you can get quite a lot of condensation on the tent walls, and it is a small tent...they had frost all over the inside and when my buddy was getting out of his bag he hit the tent and it snowed inside. Lighting a candle lantern will take care of the condensation issue....usually.....he carries a sponge now.

They are extremely well made, sturdy and light....I like to call them (all the single wall waterproof/breathable jobs) a bivy sack for two that you can sit up in.”

“Thanks for the help Snow Nymph and I am pretty sure that will be my next tent. I like your color choices as well, and gee, I can't imagine why SD doesn't like a hot pink vestibule. Just think of all the weight he'd lose with the daily vomiting. ;-)

Warmlite doesn't take plastic so I have to start saving my pennies, so hopefully that will be my Xmas present to myself. By the way, what's the New Year's Tipi thing? Rythmes with tipsy, that's a good thing.”

“The New Year's Tipi trip is in the "ATTENTION!!! California Hiking Thread!".

For the condensation I use Handi Wipes.”

“The ID MK XL rocks! At least it has so far while set up in my living room...I just got it. It's provides a good refresher on alphabet skills too.”

“OOOoooohhhhh new gear.....I want some

Any woodsmen worth his salt would at least sleep in the back yard in it the first night.”

“Is a practice shoving match for a sleeping space w/two labs inside count?

I do need to get out more....”

“I ordered the Integral Designs MK Lite. I can't wait until it comes.”