Controversial Subjects

“The world is nothing but a pallet of shades of grey, very little black and and very little white.

As for sexual orientation, who cares? There can never be enough love out there regardless of which sex it's focussed on. You'll find that people make insulting or insensitive comments on subjects they are most likely to ignorant about. Pity them.

At the end of the day any arguements that happen on this board don't mean anything. It's like having bad sex, it's quickly over, forgotten about, and then your in search for more. ^ ^”

“pepperDog, no offense to you, but I truly dislike when people use phrases like "the N word" or the "J" word. You can say nigger. Some of the blacks call each other nigger. To say nigger when discussing a topic and not calling a person that is totally fine. What on earth is the "J" word anyway.

I never heard anyone say the "W" word instead of wops when referring to Italians or the "K" word instead of Krauts when referring to Germans, etc.”

“LH - "the J word" is Jew. Thank you for the permission, but I would rather not use "the N word".

To me, blacks calling each other "Nigger" is like lesbians calling each other "Dyke" (also very common). Dyke is a very hateful word and for lesbians to use it amongst ourselves takes some of the sting out of it. I suspect blacks use Nigger for much the same reason. That doesn't make it ok for whites to use it or straights to use "Dyke".

My point is still that noone on TT would consider using those words (or wop or kraut) in the same context that they freely use fag, queer, or other words and phrases about gays. And I don't mean "when discussing a topic". I mean more like someone might say "Always looking for a bargain, aren't you - what are you, a Jew?".

I hope everyone realizes that I used that phrase only to make a point.”

“Man, Arc, among others on this site, I think it would be great to sit and talk with you. You are a builder from Florida, right? Now, some folks would say that either one of those, (carpenter,or Floridian), would make you less than intelligent, and ignore what you have to say. I find you to be insightful, especially after starting this thread.
Coincidentally, I have a close friend who grew up in Fla, in an almost classic redneck family. He has done just what you described as being self-critical and grown emotionally and spiritually beyond the point where I see most people go. (Me included).
That is the saving grace of this, (sometimes), miserable planet. We have the opportunity in each moment to transcend our tendencies to contract from relationship with all that is.”

“Oh, I thought the "J" word was Japs, right Gojo? Haha!

Ya know though, me and my cracker buddies (is it OK to use the "C" word here?) will call each other a$$hole from time to time and strangly, I still refrain from calling all white males a$$hole.

Anyone who is comfortable with the word nigger is just sad.”

“I made the mistake of calling Solitary Hiker "Cracker" and it almost ruined what became a beautiful friendship!! I don't think Californians can really relate to that term.”

“"Anyone who is comfortable with the word nigger is just sad."

Scratch that. I mispoke. I should have related that I don't understand how someone can be comfortable using the word.

Peace”

“rump ranger...... lol

What the heck people, if you can't make fun of yourselves, what can you make fun of?

Butt Pirate, there, i said it.

lol”

“Dude!!!! you gay or did I misread that>”

“Yes, we want to know....did you just make fun of yourself?”

“What an interesting thread! This is my first post at this site and I would like to say... I am a lesbian, heard it all and am no longer bothered by others discomfort with my orientation. I too was once very homophobic, probably because I couldn't face knowing who I really am.

Everywhere I go everyday, I am in the minority. But, people are what people are. I only have control over my behavior and thoughts. When I am at ease with being "different" it puts others at ease and gives them space to ask those really "stupid" questions and learn something new.

At any rate, we are all different and discriminated against for some reason or another. Too silly to spend much time on. I sure learned a lot about tolerance when I first came out and prayed for others to have it!”

“btw, the gay community has some very unflattering nicknames for the straights too lol”

“Welcome robbieh. Come on, what're the names for us? I always find it funny when the two wheelchair-bound guys I work for call us "walkers".”

“Welcome, robbieh! I moved to the Bay Area from Kansas, and some of my gay friends use to accuse me of being redneck and homophobic. It got to be funny, sometimes. My office manager was gay and when he would get angry with me would call me "hick" and "farmer boy". Then I would ask him why I was employing him if I hated him.
He and I were good friends, but it took a while before he trusted me.”

“Defense is really attack in disguise. Tis a very sad thing we cannot enjoy the diversity in our world. I've learned the most from those who are different from me and probably enjoy them the most. Every group I've come to understand, broadens the size of the world I am comfortable with and adds to the color and sparkle of things!”

“Hi Nigal and dunadan! Thanks for the welcome.
OK, now mind you, I do not use the words myself. One is "breeders" lol
(makes me laugh because I have 2 daughters...doesn't that make me one too?)”

“You know, I see this site getting better and better. Thankyou, Arc, for starting this thread.”

“Breeders! That is the cherry on top of one of the funniest days of my life. This site is stickin' funny.”

“Arclite, I hope you get the chance to come back to PNW so we can have a chat over some coals. This is exactly the kind of conversation I find most rewarding to hold over coals?..

Lessee, where to start. First, this thread seems to be the exception to Phil?s Theory of Thread Deterioration, e.g. it has NOT deteriorated into inane sex banter within 20 posts. How refreshing.

Controversial, ?eh? Let?s try this on for size. I am a white male. I grew up as a minority, and didn?t know it, didn?t realize it, didn?t care about it. I was raised in a tiny town on the coast of Wash/ state. Most of the residents were natives, Chinooks and Quinaults. There was one Japanese family and six white families. People, families, age groups (like the ?wild kids? which my two older brothers were a part of), any demographic group you could name?. They were all judged by simpler values when I was young. Were they honest? Trustworthy? Reliable? I don?t remember anyone ever describing anyone in racist terms when I was a kid.

I didn?t begin to understand that ?race? issues even existed until I was pushed into the high school/college world that existed outside the closed, sheltered world where I grew up. That revelation happened in the late sixties (insert all of the warped realities of Viet Nam, the Civil Rights Movement, Watergate, etc.). This new reality was truly hard to digest (at least it was for me) when I was entering puberty?. Talk about a sheltered upbringing? I had one!

Now I?m older. I?m not at all convinced that I?m wiser. I recognize that hate, and racism, and intolerance are basic realities in the world that I live in. I still don?t pretend to understand it, but in the spirit of the thread title, I?ll offer up some fodder for you all to chew on.

Now that I have ?escaped? my sheltered upbringing and became ?worldly?, I have come to the belief that racism will not cease to exist until races themselves cease to be. I believe that people in general have an inherent fear of anything that is different from themselves. Eliminating this fear is the only hope for eliminating racism. Unfortunately, humans in toto don?t have the capacity to make such a vast paradigm shift. You?re skin is a different color. Your hair is a different texture. Your nose is a different shape. Any visible difference is enough to feed the fear.

I recognize that one of the politically correct ?themes? of today is ?Celebrate the Differences?, e.g. hang on to cultural and/or racial independence. That theme fails to recognize the inherent human fear of all things different. Until we are all the same, there will always be some elements of the body human that believe (1) we are better than they are, and (2) they are a threat to us.

How?s that for controversial?

Before you come back at me with swords and stones, read on?.

My daughter is blonde, blue eyed, tall, the very essence of Norse beauty (insert fathers? prejudices, but in spite of a fathers? prejudices, she?s beautiful). Her chosen man is a mix borne of the darkest of slaves imported into America combined with southwest native tribal blood lines. She made here choice of mate entirely independent of any opinions or prejudices I may or may not hold.

She says her ?mocha babies? will be beautiful. I agree, and I can?t wait to hold them, once they arrive. In addition to being my progeny, they are likely to be one of the small steps in the evolutionary process that just might eliminate the word ?prejudice? from the collective human vocabulary.

Go ahead, take your shots.”

“I am a breeder, eh? LOL I have 5 children (who I do support). Does that make a breeder/provider?”

“I love this thread! I used to post mostly to gear threads, but I've found myself enjoying the other discussions here. Great to have a lot of openminded people to throw around ideas with. PepperDog, aren't you impressed? I think there are some really fine people at this site.

Dunadan, you must have missed the other threads. I'm an architect. I could tell you some things about my "intelligence" and my "education" but who cares? I darn sure don't know it all but I love to learn. I find different perspectives fascinating. I could exist very comfortably in my own little world but that wouldn't be as challenging or as fun.

No shots here, strider. I look forward to seeing you and maybe your son again as well.

Cool thread!

I promise to post more controversial subjects in the future. I got a brain-load of 'em.”

“Robbieh, welcome to the party! I have seen your posts on another board (assuming that was the same Robbieh), and I look forward to your contributions here.

PepperDog, lol! Breeder??!! Surely you can do better than that! My gay friends talk about breeders around me and my wife all the time. Of course we don't have any kids, so they are obviously talking about someone else! ;-)

One of my gay friends and I laugh about "soccermoms" a lot, which I think is kind of similar to the term "breader" in its intent to define the middle class suburban (and often homophobic)lifestyle. Yeah, and I guess we make a little fun of middle class suburbia some. I have never used the term "soccermom" here, because I assume there are a whole lot of folks here who really dig the 'burbs and would be offended if I made a joke or insulted someone because of that lifestyle choice.

I hope, now that everyone knows we have gays here, that the use of gay slurs as insults will stop. It is to me very embarrassing that these kinds of stupid comments occur. Unfortunately, a few people here seem to have had there intellectual/emotional development arrested at the age of 14, and I really doubt they can change there behavior in any significant way. Still, one can hope. In the meantime, I hope you and the other lesbians/gays here can put up with this garbage. If you were to leave, it would be our loss.”

“In reading this thread (and some others), I find myself challenged. A challenge to examine not only my views and beliefs but to examine my actions as well. I grew up in the deep south (Lower Alabama) in a time that prejudice was openly exhibited. Fortunately for me, I had the good fortune to be raised by parents who were extremely open minded and who felt that "people should be measured in terms of the goodness they exhibit" not by "a shallow measurement of their outside appearance". I can remember going with my father to political party meetings in the 60's where he openly advocated Civil Rights. Later in life, in law school (and yes, now I am in the open and available for pot shots), I could not help but feeling that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was the single most important piece of legislation ever written. In an extremely bold move, a southern Democrat backed and saw enacted a law that forced the fetters of discrimination to be removed. Do discriminatory practices still exist? Yes, of course they do. But rather than being the result of prohibitive laws, discrimination results from the forced implementation of "personal policy or agenda".

While legislation made a remarkable change, it is entirely up to individual effort if we are to move onto the a field of "true equality". In reading these threads, I find that my zeal for personal choice is renewed. Do I personally agree with all lifestyles or cultures. No. My CHOICE of lifestyle, my CHOICE of religion, and my CHOICE of expression are mine, and only mine. I do not personally believe that abortion is right. However, I firmly believe that the tenants of Roe v. Wade are entirely correct as that particular case creates a "freedom of choice" on an extremely controversial subject. Obviously there are times that legitimate public safety requires a restraint on liberty. As is often quoted "freedom of speach does not allow the cry of Fire!! in a crowded theater". It is only in those instances where the threat of public harm outweighs the value of personal freedom that we should infringe upon the concept of liberty.

My challenge comes in remaining open to listen to all issues. Human nature dictates that we tend to listen to that "which we want to hear". Listening to someone advocate (either overtly or covertly) a position of prejudice is an extreme challenge. I do not expect that everyone here will suddenly become a convert to the concept of expanded Civil Rights. However, I do expect that I will make a dedicated effort to carfully examine and to explore the views presented in this forum. Value of a person is not defined in terms of words alone. It is the intent of the message that defines character.

After ten years of criminal defense, I left private practice because I found myself calloused by asserting constitutional liberties for "criminals". In retrospect, I find that the decision point was at the point where I became judgmental of my own clients. I do not believe that it is my duty to become judgmental of anyone. I can only strive to practice that principle.”

“this is the best stuff that i've read all week!


-breeder cracker rad”

“You all have articulated very well what I have felt all along, but have not been able to say. Everybody brings something to the party.
Everybody has value. I could never slam Mutt or Spock, etc, because they make me think. This place, and our group hikes, have taught me a lot, and far more than just backpacking tips.

Thanks.”

“Right on Le Subtil. My sentiments exactly (except for the group trips, since none of you weirdos are willing to get your butts up to MT, which is an obvious bp trip choice, and . . . ).”

“Newgirl, I am going to MT next summer.”

“I was in Kalispel and Glacier in early August, newgirl. You knew that. But you made the judgement not to hike then. How could you be so judgemental?

Uh-oh. Got...to...fight...thread...deterioration...urge...”

“Sorry, Arc. I didn't catch the fact that you are an architect.
If you are an architect and Chili is a lawyer, this thread might just be too controversial for me. LOL
Is a gay person who doesn't like straights a breeder reactor?”

“chili36,

I am not sure what you meant by being "judgmental" of your clients. I have a close relationship with an attorney who does a lot of criminal defense. As a professional matter, he obviously cannot publicly condemn the actions of his clients, but I don't think that it is wrong for him to privately hold opinions about their behavior. It is obvious in many cases that these people are "victims" of their own bad choices and nothing else. Why is it wrong to have a negative opinion of a person who abuses and/or neglects their spouse and children, steals from their friends and relatives to support drug habits, and blames everyone else for their problems? I am not exaggerating to make a point here, these types of cases are all too common in his practice. If someone doesn't identify criminals' actions as "bad" and cause them to suffer consequences as a result, what motivation will they have to improve themselves?”

“Oma,

I do not disagree with your statement. However, on a personal level, I reached a point that I became afraid that my contempt for my clients could or might impact zealous representation. Other than be burdened with that fear, I made a very difficult choice to leave private practice and enter the corporate world (as a contract negotiator). In my view, criminal defense requires an unbridled passion for the pursuit of constitutional guarantees. At the point that one loses that passion is the point that I define as becoming "judgmental" of the client.”

“I agree chili36, as long as the passion for the pursuit of constitutional guarantees does not cloud one's own moral judgment. My attorney friend, in addition to representing his clients in court, also encourages them to participate in drug treatment or AA, take anger management classes, go to counseling, attend church services, etc., when he sees that they could benefit from that sort of thing. These not only help the person to improve his or her life but also make a favorable impression on the court.”

“I admire your friend's dedication.”

“Arc, that is clear on the other side of the state. That is like 300 miles away. We'll have to try again.”

“I try to be happy nice about ever thing, but it is a hard thing to do about PETER (Peeple for Ever Thing Even Rats). Them are some weerd peeple. Mebbe they jus need to get some good seks.
/o:3”

“I got one! I got one!

Along the lines of your "victims" comment, OmaHiker, I read an interesting letter in Dear Abby yesterday.

A woman wrote in to say that her husband of 20 years finally "came out" to her and ended their marrage. She goes on to say, "I owe my well-being to my therapist, who helped me understand why gays do this. It isn't their fault. It is society's fault for making them feel ashamed, and the spouse who pays for it."

Now I don't view this as much a "gay" issue as I do a personal responsibility issue. Are therapists really telling folks that they have absolutely no control over their feelings? That society controls their very thoughts and actions? What about telling this woman that her husband screwed up and made bad choices based on his own insecurities? What clues could she have seen that their marriage wasn't exactly what it should have been?

The really interesting thing was that Abby bought into it. Abby says, "Because we live in a society that places great emphasis on "family values" many gay people marry in order to conform to societal pressure."

Sounds as if Abby beleives we have no control over our emotions and actions either. I believe that the ONLY thing I DO have control over are my emotions and actions. Is anybody else here just a bit tired of the I'm-OK-you're-OK, "victim" mentality that seems so in vogue these days?”

“I am with you arclite.”

“Okay let me see iffin I got this thread all together here. So what you all are saying is "I am a Hik Farmboy Cracker that breeds as often as he can that Jews every merchant that he can to get a better deal and that I am really a lesbian too?"”

“Dudes, I'm not gay! If I was, I wouldn't have all these darned women troubles.”

“Arclite...to think, we are less than a mile from one another every day! i HAVE to go kayaking with you! I think we would have great talks.
you should come out to the temple of the universe with me one sunday and bring your kayak....you might find the discussions there enlightening and then we could go out for a contemplative paddle...:)~~~~~~~~~~~”

“nigal, the Prayer for Thanksgiving for the Home from your church website.....it is awesome! thanks for sharing that.”

“Allow me to raise the red flag.

pepperdog equates homosexuals to Jews and Blacks? No one notices?”

“Arclite,

I agree that not enough emphasis is not put on personal responsibility and self-control, especially control of one's own thoughts and fantasies. Any form of temptation starts in the mind. If you can control your thoughts, you can control your actions as well. I get so tired of hearing how "we can't help who we fall in love with," which supposedly makes it OK to abandon your family & start over with a new hottie, of whatever gender.

There is not enough social pressure any more to encourage people to do the right thing - be faithful to our marriages, take responsibility for our children, put others' needs before our own in order to benefit society & family. People can fail in all of these areas anymore & no one is supposed to judge them or their actions.

I've seen many friends' marriages fall apart lately, for no good reason. It causes so much suffering for everyone, especially the children involved. I've tried to talk sense into the "abandoner" in a couple of cases, but they are so caught up in their own selfish desires they won't listen to reason.”

“Bacpac, she equates prejudice with prejudice. A slur against gays is as bad as a slur against blacks or jews. What's so hard to understand?”

“First off, folks, Jew is not a bad word. A Jew is of the Jewish faith, a Muslim is of the Islamic faith. Now, kike, that's quite a different matter.

Side note on that, OmaHiker. There is a continuing show on PBS about the religious history of the U.S. The last one I saw was about the rise of "Individualism" in the U.S. One of the societal changes was of interesting note. They talked about how U.S. criminal justice went from public shaming to incarceration away from the public eye.

I beleive that the concept of public shame brought on by societal pressure is an issue of culture. That discussion is bound to open a can of worms!”

“Arclite, I tend to agree with the first sentence of your last paragraph and undoubtedly agree with the second sentence.”

“Context can make jew a bad word, like "he tried to jew me down".”

“pepperDog, I agree with what you are trying to convey to an extent. I don't call black people niggers, but I would still use that word if there was a discussion over the word itself.

The word Jew is not derogatory. Even if it's used in the sentence you gave as an example, it's still not a bad thing to say Jew. It was the meaning of the sentence that was wrong in it's intent.

I didn't know dyke was a derogatory word, though I don't use it. It does sound like a harsh word anyway.”

“Yes, dyke is a derogatory word. It is so derogatory, that Dick Van Dyke is changing his name to Penis Van Lesbian.”

“That's funny.”