Controversial Subjects

“I know many folks don?t wish to discuss controversial issues such as politics, religion, or sexual orientation, but these issues fascinate me from a personal growth standpoint. I am always interested in differing points of view that may help me to better understand my own beliefs and boundaries. I never want to feel so smugly confident in my own ?infallible judgement? that I cannot come to understand the wisdom of a different perspective.
Boundaries fascinate me. How do people arrive at their own boundaries? As relates to the ?coming out? issue, why do some people find the ?mechanics? (as LeSubtil so aptly put it) of homosexuality acceptable while being disgusted by bestiality? What criteria do they use to reach these boundaries? I loved my dog. I just didn?t LOVE my dog. I once saw a porn movie that showed a very willing dog and a very willing woman? Do some people feel that only other humans are worthy of their love? I understand the love between a human and dog, but I have a gut-level reaction to the ?mechanics? of a sex act between the two.
To clarify what I thought was an obvious implication in a question that pepperDog asked me, it seems self-evident that the touching, holding, and intimacy of sex would be the same whether it was between homosexuals or heterosexuals. The difference for me is in the ?mechanics.? I find them ?unnatural? in a very profound way. Much as I find the ?mechanics? of bestiality ?unnatural.?
Another boundary that I find fascinating is how many people have an all or nothing mentality. The judgements become: ?You either like all of me or nothing about me?; ?you?re either for me or against me?; you?re either right or wrong, good or bad. I believe that this mentality is responsible for more wars than any other one reason. I believe that it is probably the reason that people have such a difficult time discussing controversial issues. Self-examination can be painful. I found it interesting that jvz felt the need to provide personal support for pepperDog on the coming out thread. I did not get the Impression that there had been any posts that were personal attacks on her character.
There are all sorts of things that people could find to disagree about who I am and how I behave: Do I belong to an organized religion? Which one? Does expressing my thoughts offend them? What kind of car do I drive? Why should I care about that? Those are superfluous issues. They don?t define the whole of my character. I hope, pepperDog, that you are secure enough to know that being a good person has absolutely nothing to do with whether people agree with everything you do. I hope that you can live a happy and fulfilling life without having to constantly worry about whether people accept everything about who you are.
I love discussing controversial issues, so that I can engage in self-examination. I find it very refreshing when someone like pepperDog feels comfortable enough to ?come out? on a controversial issue. I would love it if we had someone from the Islamic faith ?come out? and discuss their religion. I believe that dogma sucks. I don?t ever want to feel like I have all the correct answers because that is truly delusional. Can I get some enlightenment here?”

“ditto. If you are afraid to talk, you have something to hide”

“critical thought should never be confused with being critical”

“I have found as I get older that things just aren't the "black or white" issues I thought them to be as a youth.

For example, ever the environmentalist, I now see some points to what the "other side" says.

Now I spend too much time thinking about the various "shades" of an issue and I know that neither side is entirely correct.

It was a lot easier being a stupid teen-ager and 20-something...LOL! (OK, there's not ALL BAD EITHER! lol)”

“I wish all folks would have the same mentality that you have arc, at times, myself included.”

“I have found as I get older that things just aren't the "black or white" issues I thought them to be as a youth.

For example, ever the environmentalist, I now see some points to what the "other side" says.

Now I spend too much time thinking about the various "shades" of an issue and I know that neither side is entirely correct.

It was a lot easier being a stupid teen-ager and 20-something...LOL! (OK, there's not ALL BAD EITHER! lol)”

“WHOOPS!! I see both sides to double posts too!! I realize the iMac at work has some good points not found on the PC at home and -- VICE VERSA!!

hehehee”

“I also love discussing controversial issues Arclite. I used to bring up alot of threads that touch on your "what are your boundaries" thought. The response I got on TT was not a good one. People attacked everything from my being a single mom to my intelligence level. I think that TT can be a great forum for discussion, but be prepared for very personal attacks.”

“It appears lizs understands critical thought. An indepth look at the possibilites of being wrong in our own way of thinking is fundamental to wisdom.”

“I realize that I have been a softy. I do get my feelings hurt, even on a stupid internet site where I don't know anyone. I would like to see more discuss that did not include attacks. I don't think anyone personally attacked pepperdog on the coming out thread either, but some pretty nasty stuff was said about the lifestyle. The same applies to the Islam thing, would anyone want to say they were Islamic after some of the things people posted about that faith. There was alot that was hideous and w/out any intelligent insight.”

“I didn't find "nasty stuff" was said. Maybe I missed it, can you point out an example Newgirl? I read many opinions on homsexuality, but didn't find any of them hateful. Sometimes I read too fast though. It's okay to dissagree with someone else's choice.”

“Arclite, I agree with what you've said but you mis-quoted me. "I...find the mechanics distastefull, but I don't dislike a person because of who they've chosen to love." Distasteful as opposed to acceptable, LOL.

I appreciate what you are attempting to explain here.

The older I get, the more I realize I don't know.”

“I prefer to look at an issue from several viewpoints. I try to consider the other person's perspective, to walk in their shoes. After a little introspection it becomes perfectly clear that they are wrong and I am right.”

“Little, growing up, I didn`t know squat,...

As a teenager, I knew it all,...

The older I got, the less I knew for sure,...

Much older now, I don`t know squat,.. again!LOL

Now in my second childhood,... Life is good once more!!!!LOL”

“Too often, I find myself surfing sites that only reflect my personal points of view. While this can be a confidence-booster, it does nothing to help me develop defensible reasons for my beliefs ("apologetics" if you will). TT offers enough "diversity" that I find myself challenged from time to time. This is good intellectual exercise. I try not to engage in name-calling, although I admit I have sometimes failed in this area - MUST CONTROL TEMPER (said through clenched teeth) or stay away from computer!!!

In spite of all this, I feel that there are some things in life that are "black and white," and when someone believes strongly in something, they should not be afraid to say so. There is such a thing as truth which transcends culture and human opinion, and it is not a moving target, even though it can at times be elusive and difficult to discover.”

“does a hardon count as personal growth?????????????”

“Joy, here is one.

Are you a poo jabber Tom?
-BaSO4 10/9/01

I know this was a joke, but it is just so unintelligent. I strongly, strongly support everyone saying what it is they believe. I definitely have opinions and I want to give them out. What I don't support is when we can't state those opinions w/out becoming vulgar idiots. An intelligently stated opinion is much more likely to get someone to think than a retard "poo jabber" type comment.”

“Newgirl, I think you are taking some of the comments too literally. Although there is no shortage of "crudeness" and/or "jabbing" that passes back and forth, I cannot and do not read such comments as being prefaced upon malicious thought. My observation is that there is far more comaraderie present than you acknowledge. A sharp remark exchanged between two TT'ers can just as easily be read much differenly if reviewed with the thought that is was not necessarily generated by evil intentions.”

“newgirl, it's just a joke. Baso4's poo jabber comment brought on my cum dumpster comment. Both, I'm sure were to generate a laugh. I think the poo jabber comment is hilarious!

My comment wasn't intended to offend anyone, it was intended to make people laugh, if it offended someone, c'est la vie, i can't help that.”

“The older I get the more I realize that I can always improve my communication skills as well.

"I...find the mechanics distastefull, but I don't dislike a person because of who they've chosen to love."
LeSubtil

No, no, and nope. I never meant to imply that you might dislike a person because of who they've chosen to love, LS. In fact, I thought your "mechanics" idea was a good explanation of how I felt on the subject. I quoted you merely to illiustrate you use of "mechanics." That has nothing to do with a person being loved or finding love.

Dang, and I thought I was clear. Back to the drawing board.”

“Well said Buddha, malice aforethought is not to be presumed.”

“I guess it boils down to whether or not you know people or not. The people here that know me or have met me know that half the stuff I post is to make them start laughing at work so they can get in trouble. (except for the anti-french threads, of course)

lol - have fun!”

“Chili, there is alot of comaradarie. I see that and I love it. It keeps me coming back, even after I get my little feelers burned. I am sensitive. I have admitted that over and over on this forum. There is some Jewel song that says basically she is sensitive and she wants to stay that way. I think too much "jabbing" even if it wasn't meant to be evil can desensitize. Sometimes outright rudeness is okayed around here. Arclite makes a good point about improving communication.

And I don't need any comments about jabbing and desensitization, Rad!”

“An interesting thing I learned in college, OmaHiker, is that there is not a single value (or cultural "truth", if you will) that is shared by all the people of the world. Not even one.

I do think you are right to the extent that there probably is one transcendental truth out there, but we will never really know what it is until we die. Everything else is just a WAG or a culturally taught value. We certainly don't come out of the womb hating gays or blacks or whatever.”

“Arclite - you and I missed completely - again!

In your first post you said "acceptable". You may have just been quoting my use of the word "mechanics" but it reads like I find homosexual mechanics "acceptable" when in fact I said I found them "distasteful". Re-reading your post 5 times I see you were not referring not to my values but to a homosexual's. I get it now. Too much time in the parking lot during high school.

Clear as mud?”

“jab jab!”

“Omahiker... hey gal! Just to clarify, I see both sides of an issue much more than I ever have before. But I still believe you gotta speak your piece .... stand up for your beliefs.

Maybe I'll have to read more and think more to intelligently do that, since I know the "other side" has a few valid points (lol!! See, I have backed off to only "a few valid points" now!!)”

“I agree Bob, and I believe that it is our critical examination of those "taught" values that allows us to more fully mature as a person. The question changes from "what is right?" to that of "why is it right? (or wrong)"”

“I've missed you newgirl.”

“poo poo!”

“Rad and Buddha, frickin' hilarious!!!!!! I am so glad I work in a desert island of an office. I am just laughing my rear off.”

“I miss the crudity of the factory or warehouse setting where I used to work.
Or the Post Office!!!
WA-hoo, now that was a good place to get your A$$ pinched or find a rubber dork in your lunchbox.....with mayonaise on it!!!
Those were not the kind of places to be sensitive.

There is nothing wrong with sensitivity, but I just can't cuss like I used to workin' at a library now!

”

“Sensitivity doesn't mean you can't curse, Tom. I am a sailor mouth. That's why working at a sawmill w/ all guys is perfect. They could careless if I throw a few bad words around. This was also a plus working at the body shop of a car dealership. We cursed all day long.”

“Yes, silly me making a joke like, Are you a poo jabber Tom?

After reflecting on my thoughts and feelings, what I really wanted to say was, are you a rump ranger Tom?

There, I think that is more sensitive and intelligent.”

“Hahahahaha-
Rollin' rollin' rollin'
Though my ass is swollen
Keep them doh-gies rollin'
Rawhide!

Are you wearing leather,.....right now?
Big boy?”

“BaSO4, your sensitivity training is finally paying dividends.”

“Many of these posts are enlightening and make me think.

Then there are the other posts...”

“Arclite, isn't it always a challenge to separate the wheat from the chaff?”

“is your post chafed?”

“rad, have you turned into a "post inspector"? I sure wish you would use your newgirl persona to ask a question like that.”

“no”

“Badda-bing, badda-boom.”

“That is great arc. It does take a certain level of maturity to be able to actually LEARN from other points of view. Good for you.

"I would love it if we had someone from the Islamic faith ?come out? and discuss their religion"

I'm not Muslim but I am willing to come out and share my my new church with the group.”

“Let's really get this thread heated up!!

Rubber tips or points on your trekking poles?”

“I think true understanding comes with acknowledgement of true disagreement.

Just ignoring unpleasant viewpoints leaves them to fester and creates unpleasant relationships between individuals/groups.

That said, I think there is a tactful way to express disagreement.”

“Trecking poles are for fags.”

“That's the reason I use "trekking" poles, bacpac.”

“token homo checking in.

By the way - why do you think no one else has "come out" on TT? It isn't likely that there are no others here. Considering that the majority of the postings on the "Coming Out Week" thread were pretty much frat-boy level I'm not surprised that gays on TT didn't want to participate. Come to think of it, there are quite a few times people throw around the old "what a fag" insult. No one even on this forum would dare use the "N" word, the "J" word, or any other ethnic or religious slur as freely as they use anti-gay insults. Not to try to force too much sensitivity on this group, you have to assume that a certain portion of the people reading your posts are homosexual and it isn't too welcoming to read that kind of language. Now I know that there are some people on TT who would be fine if no gays ever read or posted here but I prefer being a little more inclusive in my range of contacts.

But not even coming out in a formal way - just in a by-the-way kinda thing. We hear a lot about people's husbands and wives and people getting married and getting divorced etc. Does anyone else want this to be a forum where a man could say "I met this great guy last week and he loves to hike, too!!" and not have to endure lots of queer jokes? Am I dreaming the impossible dream?

I find myself agreeing with a lot of what arclite said on his initial post. I never did feel personally attacked but I can also hide behind the old "but I am a Lesbian - they are talking about gay men" blind. Which is pretty chickensh!t of me.

I enjoy the "controversial subjects" too, and I, too, have been amazed at the "with me or against me" flavor that a lot of the threads (especially the political post-Sept 11th threads) have taken lately. Are people really that sure that they are right?”

“Oma Hiker is. The rest of us are undecided.”