The New Newspeak

“I spent lots of time on military installations with my three older brothers, and two brothers-in-law. I saw that the military - in peacetime ("War is hell, but peacetime's a motherfu*ker!") - was not for me. I opted to make my contribution to society through our workforce. I would have joined the military in a heartbeat to fight, tho.

You pussies whine about the casualties of war as if you were the only people on earth that were aware of it.
I would recommend that you put yourselves in the shoes of our Commander and Chief of the Armed Forces, but that would be simply impossible. You could not (for one second) fathom the burden that GW carries at this moment. He has had (no choice - it's his job) to make many many hard and unbelievably difficult decisions in regard to our response to the events on 9/11.

Now... who is the "blowhard who was never there"?

You know - I remember a Q&A session after one of the Bush/Gore debates. A black dude asked GW a question about Texas' high rate of capital punishments. Natch, he eluded to the disproportionate number of blacks being executed. Anyhoo, this fella posed the question in a manner that made it seem as if he was thinking GW went about all willy-nilly making decisions to fry folks at the drop of a hat.

GW was a bit blindsided by this question/comment. He was suddenly awash with emotion. I could see the ghosts in his eyes. At that moment, GW expressed - through the windows of his soul - the unbelievable burden that he had lade as Chief Law Enforcement Officer for the State of Texas. Sometimes, real people have to make tough, real decisions.

Get a stomach, puss.”

“"Listen, dumbass - we are at war - get a stomach for crying out loud." "You pussies whine about the casualties of war as if you were the only people on earth that were aware of it.
I would recommend that you put yourselves in the shoes of ..." -gojo

Gojo, I would recommend you put yourself in the shoes of the Arabs. Quit you whining about the WTC, they were casualties of a war that the USA and Israel started long ago.”

“LOL!”

“So what is the point of all this? SH and Spock have an over simplified solution to nothing?

Blah, Blah, Blah.... Nothing constructive, Nothing relevant, just half truths and lies.... Blah, Blah, Blah.”

“Nigal I thought I had just about covered what I would recommend in my posts to the thread entitled "They Said This War Would be Different." Nevertheless I will cover them again.

First and formost, the United States must have a fair and equitable policy towards the Palestinian people in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. This policy should extend to Arabs living inside the borders of pre-1967 Israel. IMHO Israel does not occupy the "high moral ground" in this dispute. Israel is not a democracy by any stretch of the imagination. (Neither are they a friend of the USA for that matter.) They continue to abuse the human rights of non-Jewish people living in the aforementioned places. If the Palestinian people were black and this was apartheid South Africa there would a worldwide outcry. We need to be asking our politicians and the media why this is not the case. I have my own theories but we won't go into them here. The bottom line is we won't see peace here until there is some peace and justice for Palestinians. Osama bin Laden said that and he is dead on the mark there.

Secondly, the United States must stop propping up corrupt regimes in places like Guatamala, Columbia, and particularly Saudi Arabia. The only reason we have troops there now is because the royal House of Saud is so corrupt that the people in the country are at the point of revolt. Don't believe it? Then ask yourself why did the king fly off to his palace in Switzerland right after September 11th attack. He was afraid that there was going to be coup and that he was going to be killed. Saudi Arabia is filthy rich in oil but the government is billions of dollars in debt to the West because of the actions of King Faid's family. We're not there to protect the Kawaitis from the Iraqs. We're there to keep the royal House of Saud in power and thereby keep the gas flowing cheap in America. The minute a fundamentalist government takes control there (and it will) the gas prices in the States are going through the roof. IMHO we will deserve it. Dos that mean we should stay? NO we should get out and take our lumps. The fundamentalists love money too and they will sell us the oil.

Third, we have got to quit bullying people around. Yugoslavia is a prime example of why people hate us. Do you think the people in Belgrade shed a tear when they heard that the WTC had blown up? We used NATO (a defensive organization) to wage a non-UN sanctioned war against a foreign country. This makes governments in China, India, Russia, and any number of other countries very nervous of the intentions of oour country. Afterall, if we can go after Yugoslavia on trumped up charges and outright lies then we can go after anyone who gets in our way.

Third, quite lying to ourselves. This war against Afghanistan is about oil. I copied the records from the Congressional Record. Go back to my post on the "They Said This War...." thread. Read it Nigal. It is all spelled out as clear as day. I'll wager that within 18 months of the time we have control of Afghanistan you will hear the TV news spinners begin the mantra of the need for an oil pipeline across Afghanistan .... "This is going to be for the good of the people of Afghanistan....etc." It's 1973 all over again. The last time Big Oil wanted something (the Alaska Pipeline) they dreamed up the "oil embargo" and shortage. We were going to run out of oil by the year 2000 and all that bull$hit. This war is as phony as that shortage was.
If we really want bin Laden just all we have to do is put a high enough price on his head.

Nigal I've hiked with you and I like you a lot. I also know you can think. Ask yourself why people are willing to kill themselves? It has nothing to do with envy of our lifestyle and everything to do with people willing to kill themselves because they have no other voice. Also ask yourself if our government has ever lied to us before for ulterior motives. I think you will agree with me that it has. What makes you so sure they are not doing it now?”

“By the way blowhards, I was in the USAF from early 1970 until 1974. At the time we had a hot little war in Viet Nam going on. Were you there too?”

“Oil you say?

"So what?" I say. I need oil. Shoes, gas, clothes, tires, plastics - gimme!

bin Laden has only recently mentioned Palestine as a means to stir up Muslim sentiment.

It's war, peeps - plain and simple. And do you know what? ...we're gonna win.”

“SH, What alternative solutions do you have? I agree that the land grabbing Israelis need to stop stealing land, but the rest of your arguement is kinda weak.”

“"Gimme" That says it all gojo. Even you now admit this is not a war about liberty, freedom, or justice. Oh it is about the American way of life though. And sadly the greedy American way of life will be our downfall.”

“yada yada yada. americans are bad. yada yada yada. poor little arabs. yada yada yada. come down from your high horse solitary and spock. it seems a little hipocritical to hear you speaking of all this while you still hide behind the flag.”

“Solitary hiker, just cause a person didnt enlist doesnt mean they have no right to speak up....Yep, I just checked my copy of the US Constitution and it didnt mention military service as a requirement for an opinion.

I think you and spock should post less. NOT because your opinions are unpopular but because there is so much work to be done stopping this war! I mean with all those petitions you two are circulating and all the letters you are writing and all of the informational seminars you are holding,not to mention overseas intelligence gathering and intelligence verification. THAT is alot of work. How do you find time to re-educate us dunderheads?”

“?Nigal I've hiked with you and I like you a lot.?

I like you a lot too. A difference in politics can?t make a difference in that. 8)

?I also know you can think.?

Yes, I can. This is why I don?t feel as though I?m too far out of line when I say that for Joe Shmoe from Kokomo (great Cheech and Chong reference!) to sit at home on his computer and sum up all of the U.S.?s foreign policy problems in four paragraphs and claim to have all the answers is probably running on only 50% of the information available. Armchair politics is a far cry from what our elected officials have to deal with. Again, knowing the troubles of the world and how each and every one of us can effect the world around us are two very different things. It?s only after we stop putting our energies into just pointing out the problems and actually doing something about it will things change.


BTW- thanks for serving while I was still poopin? my pants. I do wish you showed a bit more support for the men and women who are serving for the both of us now.”

“Please tell me I?m not the only one here who sees the irony in the fact that people are slamming the USA for supposedly killing all these poor people with sanctions and yet these very sanctions are put into place because these same people can?t stomach a real war so we are forced to turn to U.N. policies in order to persuade a country to get in line. And now it comes full circle and they are complaining because we are going to go the full distance in this one and remove this government. Ya just can?t win.”

“Nigal, some people just gotta be unhappy. It's their cardinal trait.”

“Nigal I do support our troops. I'm just tired of the politicians and the multi-national corporations who use them and then discard them like you would the wrapper on a Big Mac. All wars are basically about money. (Yes even WWII and the WAr Between the States)This one is no different.

And Birch, even though some of you "dunderheads" are near impossible to re-educate, I will keep trying. The soul of what's left of this country is worth it.”

“So, solitary hiker, will you be hosting "re-education" camps for the slow learners in our midst?”

“Actually, SH, the American War of the Rebellion was about state's rights. And, even as a fifth generation Southerner (3x grandson of a member of the 49th GA Infantry, Co. E), I am glad that things have evolved as they have.

"...wrapper on a Big Mac"?
Again, you're showing that you haven't a clue as to what the powers that be have to wrestle with in their decision making.

We gotta stand behind them, dood. This is a pivitol point in our country's history - "they" need our support and prayers.”

“"All wars are basically about money. (Yes even WWII"

This is way too broad of a statement to be true. Frankly, I?m not going to take Joe Public's word about wartime economics and it?s effects on policies unless he?s got a degree in economics and poli sci hanging on the wall. It?s a lot more complicated than simply saying it?s about the money. Correct me if I?m wrong but, we didn?t join WWII until after we were attacked, even after we knew something was coming. We sat out the first years of that war. If it?s all about money why weren?t we first in line to jump on Germany and reap the profits you suggest war brings? Why do we engage in giving (at our cost) weapons and supplies to a certain side in certain 3rd world countries to build friendly nations when it will profit us nothing? What, so we can get coffee at a lower rate?

"Nigal I do support our troops."

Do you think a grunt on the front lines in Afghanistan would think you?re supporting them when you say that they are not there to fight for freedom and justice but are simply there for the money? Try telling one of the estimated 50,000 children who lost a parent in the WTC that this war is all about the money.”

“I try to keep an open mind. I support our Prez and our troops, I deplore what happened 9/11, and I want to see some heads on a pike.
That said, I can see the possibility of truth in what Solitary Hiker, and even Spock, say. Greed is a powerful motivator and historically the US government has not always been unaffected by this greed.
I don't think it's un-American to examine the motives of a WAR, I think it is a responsibility.

*Putting on Nomex suit*”

“We can?t ignore that aspect LeSubtil but we also have to look at it this way; we know this is going to be a long campaign, right? Once it?s all said and done, the receipts are all added up and we count the costs (cost of weapons, cost of aid, cost of rebuilding once we are done tearing down, cost of human life, cost of further fighting as a spin off of our present efforts), even if we got every single drop of oil in Afghanistan the costs are going to be HUGE. SH and Spock make it sound as though we are going to get rich off this war. At the risk of sounding simple, ?That there is some fuzzy math.?”

“As always, the truth is somewhere in-between.”

“truth is fuzzy.”

“"50,000 children"? Those New Yorkers were quite fertile apparently.”

“i was wondering about that, too.”

“Spock said:"Gojo, I would recommend you put yourself in the shoes of the Arabs. Quit you whining about the WTC, they were casualties of a war that the USA and Israel started long ago."

More Afgahny civilians were killed during their own civil war than have been by the US bombing campaign. Who started that?”

“More than likely I stated those stats wrong. Could be 50,000 family members total as it would be 10.8 kids per person lost. My bad.

I agree LeSubtil, it's in the middle somewhere.”

“I'll just repeat what I said on 9/12 - ignore the peacenik freaks, and our country will do just fine. We need to get the terrorists at all costs, and if countries don't cooperate, we must destroy them until thier own people topple their government. Looks like everything is going according to plan.

Ya know I vehemntly disagree with Spock and SH's views, but what I most agree with is thier inflexibility. I met a gentleman at a local pub last week who was a Vietnam protester at Berkley during the 60's, and is currently a Leader in the AFL/CIO. After discussing topics ranging from the current war to the growth of societies, I found that there are some people with views like Spock out there, that are willing to discuss and debate the issues, not spew lies and make moronic comments about things. Now, we are starting a civil discussion group to meet bi-weekly. It should be interesting, much more interesting than what I read here.”

“Buddha, do you consider your position flexible?





BTW I am not agreeing with Spock and/or SH, but I do consider what they say.”

“Nigal,
Americans aren't going to get rich off the coming "Afghani" oil pipeline, multi-national corporations are. And I would have no problem telling the average America grunt on the frontline that he is the cannon fodder that will make it all possible. And as far as why the American people will let it happen? Well gojo said it best. It me quote him, "Gimme". We (our federal government) do a lot of bad things to other people and environments in the world so we can maintain our American "way of life".

And WWII was fought over money. WWWII was just a continuation of WWI and that was all about the British and French maintaining their vast colonial empire. The Germans and Japanese wanted some of it and the British weren't about to let it happen. The United States just got sucked into it because the America public is basically stupid and easily manipulated. Roosevelt was relieved when Pearl Habor happened. Afterall he had done just about everything he could to get us into the war before Dec. 7th but the anti-war isolationist sentiment in the USA was very strong in the 30s. Japan made it easy for us to go to war. But that's a whole nother story.

Now as far as the War Between the States.,Gojo I too am a Southerner. In fact I'm what is known as as recalcitrant secessionist, a Confederate-American if you will. I know my states rights. And I do know my history. And I'm not talking about the lies you learned in politically correct public school either. The War of Northern Aggression boiled down to money.
We could argue this but this thread is not the format for that discussion. But if you want, bring it on!”

“Anyone have a link to the new Federal "anti-terrorism" legislation pending? I'd sure like to see how many of my rights and/or civil liberties are being tinkered with here...”

“These extreme positions are irritating. Which is more false, A or B:

A) The bombing and Afghanistan has nothing to do with getting Bin Laden or stopping terrorsim.

B) The terrorists are motivated solely by hatred of American values and the American way of life.

To me, both views are false and dangerous. This conflict has a long history, and the US bears responsibility for a lot of injustices. We need to understand that history if we are to come through this crisis without much more serious damage to our well being. But understanding this doesn't mean condemning the US or denying its right to fight back. Every country manouevers for wealth and power at the expense of others.

To me, its as if my Uncle Sam is the owner the company I work for and engages in some "sharp" and questionable business practices... one's I disagree with. But when disgruntled competitors that he drove out of business set fire to his office and kill members of his family, I know whose side I'm on. Yes I hope he changes his ways, yes I hope he doesn't react in ways that just make things worse, yes I hope and pray he learns something. But no, I don't think he deserved it. Its time to fight back.

Gojo... I think SH's views deserve a bit more respect than that. While I think he is a bit too extreme, he raises truths and questions that most people ignore. Please don't try to race Spock to the gutters in your personal attacks. You seem like a really good guy, and I think you are better than that.”

“Whatever dude. I still think you're all wet and stuck on conspiracy theories.”

“Yes, I think I'm flexible on many issues Le Subtil. Discussion and debate are good things, but only when sound minds and realistic ideas are present.”

“Actually, gojo, "states' rights" was meaningless doublespeak then just as it is now. In the years leading up to the Civil War, the southern states were seeking not just to preserve slavery in their own states but to impose it on any new states (whether they wanted it or not)--in other words, "states' rights" for the pro-slavery states but not for the other states.”

“Right on, Tehipite. That was what Kansas was all about.”

“Buddha - understand, I am NOT trying to bust your chops here, but who determines if the minds are sound or the ideas realistic? Isn't that sort of thing subjective?”

“If I can say something here. The problem I have with Spock is his delivery and sorces. They way he posts is just annoying. I love to disscuss stuff like this, but as in all debates, the delivery is most important. His stinks, sorry. It would be one thing to point and counterpoint but the additude of "I'm right and your all a bunch of brain washed B@stards" is boring. It gives the impression that your point is weak and most of all, turns people off. SH seems to be willing to offer point and counterpoint and I hope that I'm right about that. Otherwise, it's just a waste of time.”

“Until SH, Spock, and the other bleeding hearts can accept that prosperity and wealth are favorable attributes these discussions are meaningless.

Money is good. Abject poverty is bad. Say it over and over...”

“I know that you aren't busting my chops Le Subtil. My definition of a sound mind is making a point and backing it with facts, not hogwash. And I'll be sure to point out before many of you do that sometimes I post stuff without having all of my facts present, but there is a huge difference between omitting facts and manipulating them.
Realistic ideas are much more subjective. I try to base my ideas on common sense. When argueing, some people here like to break down others' arguements instead of offering solutions of their own. I don't know if it's because they don't have an original thought in their head, or if their arguements are so far fetched that they'd never be able to defend them here.

Example of a realistic idea:
"We should bomb the countries that harbor and support terrorists in order to erradicate terrorism."

compared to....

"We should abandon all of our national interests in the middle east in hopes that the terrorists and madmen will lay down their arms and no longer be a threat to The US."

I hope that explains it!”

“"prosperity and wealth are favorable attributes" - yes, but at any expense?
Should I high five a speedfreak who just mugged me?

This is confusing. You guys are making me argue the side opposite of my beliefs.”

“More Afgahny civilians were killed during their own civil war than have been by the US bombing campaign. Who started that?
Joy
10/24/01

Jesus Christ, Joy, are you really that uninformed? The Afghan civil war started when the USA abandoned Afghanistan following the Soviet invasion. The USA was more than happy to pump billions of dollars of weapons into their country to let those people do our bidding in the Cold War against the Soviets. Those people sacrificed a lot so that Brezinsky (Carter era) could inflict a "Vietnam" upon the Soviets. Immidiatley upon the end of thgat war when the Soviets pulled out defeated, the USA deserted the Afghani people. Absolutely no assistance was given to these people who had just helped America win the Cold War. Imagine how you would feel betrayed by the USA. Maybe a little angry? Face it war mongers... the USA foreign policy created the mess in Afghanistan, including training all those Taliban (and Osama) how to fight.

Live by the sword, die by the sword. That seems to be Americas foriegn policy destiny.”

“Gotta say that I am on board with Solitary Hiker for 80% of the ride.

However . . .I'm gonna have to hitchike along with some of the others for the remaining 20%.

For geo-political and economic reasons we threw our support behind the creation of the Israeli state in 1948 and our continued support in subsequent years has disenfranchised a ton of angry islamics. Who are now trying to blow us up.

I think a lot (all) of what the US does IS motivated by the 'gimme" factor expressed by Gojo.

HOwever . . .at this point we need to play with the hand we chose (not were 'dealt", but chose).

We cannot let the attack of Sept 11 go unanswered. Even if some of our policies bred the anger. We must root out terrorist cells in Afghanistan, Iraq, France, England and here in the US, forever. In perpetuity.

For better or worse, because of the "gimme" factor, we need to secure a military friend who can kick butt in the middle east (Israel) and we do need to secure access to oil (Saudi Arabia and Kuwait).

Those are the cards in our hand. And although I agree with Solitary Hiker that we came by those cards in a way that bred the anger we are now facing . . . we cannot simply turn the hand in and walk away from the game. We have to play out the hand to the best of our ability.


Perhaps when we have destroyed enough of the terroists networks to feel more comfortable, we will review the hand of cards, review the game, and look to make improvements.

IMO we could do worse than to secure a Palestian state. Even at some risk to our relationship with Israel.

How's this for a converstation with Sharon . . . ."withdraw settlers and troops from the occupied territory within 10 days . . .or we will start shutting down the spigot of military and other aid. Futhermore, if within six months the withdrawl is not complete, we will make a dollar for dollar transfer of aid from Israel to aid in the creation of a stable Palestian state: Schools, Hospitals, Infrastructure."


THAT is a conversation that is long long overdue.”

“For what it's worth, in the last couple of weeks the US, Britain and most others have said that they support a Palestian state and will be working toward such a state. If you look at it, the US has been leaning on Israel, just like it did in the Gulf War, to try and keep them in check and not cause any problems. Israel, however recently, has grown tired of this and is starting to be defiant toward the US. Who knows what the next couple of days will bring to the Middle East.

I believe that the West now understands what happened in the past and is trying to correct it. Nothing can totally undo what has been set into motion from the past, but I think that what the West is doing, on top of working with Iran and other Muslum countries, is an attempt to show good faith.

This situation is between cultures of haves and have nots. Haven't you ever gotten upset when Johnny got a new bike and your parents didn't get you one? In it's simplist form, that's what I think this situation is.”

“I'm afraid that these events have had the effect of declaring open season to Israel bashers.

The Zionist movement had intellectual roots long before WWII. The British kept many Jews from entering Palestine and contributed to their deaths at the hands of Nazis. Modern Israel wasn't created by the British or the US but by people determined that their only chance for survival was the creation of a Jewish homeland. The British fought them very hard and had the King David Hotel blown up in their faces.

Maybe the US acted morally by supporting them after witnessing firsthand the atrocities committed in Europe.

The occupation of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967 was the result of an amazing victory in a defensive war, not a land grab.

Today there are militant settlers in those areas under no more control of the US or the Israeli governments than the Palestinian militants are under Yasir Arafat's control. There are those in the Israeli Army who are pissed that they are risking their lives for a bunch of extremists.

The recent incursions by the Israeli Army have been soundly condemned by our President and others around the world. Let?s remember that they are a nation surrounded by neighbors bent on their destruction and what seem like extreme measures to us certainly seem justified to a nation at war for their survival.

I am not at all unsympathetic to the terrible plight of the Palestinian people.

It's a very difficult situation that defies an easy solution - great minds have been trying to bring peace there for a long time. Bush's recent verbal support for a Palestinian state is long overdue in my opinion. Much work remains to be done and I wouldn't expect a just solution anytime soon - though perhaps it's not too much to hope for a workable solution.”

“Violin --

I don't think you and I are that far apart on Israel. At least from what you have written.

Whatever our reasons for supporting the creation of the Israeli state (and I am not suggesting that a secure Israeli state is a BAD thing. It is a GOOD thing) . . .It is time we applied pressure (as you suggested is happening), to push the Palestian/Israeli situation not just forward in talking . . .but forward in action.

Removal of the settlers would be a good step. Or, at the very least, their abandonment. (not that their abandonment would be a politically tolerable thing in israel). As you say, there are kids in the Israeli army who are not particularly disposed towards putting their lives on the line for extremist settlers.

I am well aware that the land was acquired in a defensive action. And I guess my only response to that is . . .too bad. We could have kept Germany as the 51st state and Japan as the 52cd. Give back the land and move on.”

“I really didn't find much in your post offensive lee except that you said that the US supported the creation of Israel for geo-political and economic reasons. Perhaps, and I know it's a stretch for some people, the US acted on moral grounds.

Removing the settlers is much easier said than done. Remember that Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated because he favored that. There are some hard-core extremists involved.

I'm not optimistic that the peace process will progress much with Sharon in charge. Fortunately, parliamentary governments don't typically last too long and many Israelis long for peace.”

“I agree with Spock on why Afghanistan is currently under the leadership that it is. However, if it weren't for the support the US gave Afghanistan during it's war with the Soviets, or our sacrifies in Vietnam, the Soviet Union would not have fallen. Communism had to die, and we had to fight it on many fronts. The Cold War was the ultimate form of brinkmanship. Essentially, we outspent the soviets by tying them up on several fronts, and advancing our technology, that is why capitalism and a free society are superior wyas of governing peoples.

The death of communism spawned the current terrorism we face. I am sure that was hard to forsee, by anybody. We must now remedy the situation, and move on.

I also very much agree with Violin's point on Isreal. they have to leave the occupied territories. If they refuse, fend for yourself fella's, you are no better than anybody else, and the Isrealies have to understand that what happened to their people in WWII was tragic, but sympothy only goes so far before reason must prevail.”

“Death of communism? Ha ha!

G.W. just said China was a great nation. Last I checked it was still communist and has the fastest growing economy in the world.

The only reason communisn died in the Soviet union was as you said...we outspent the soviets, and we have more resources. If communism was sure to die itself because it's supposedly so bad, why did we have to spend so much money to make it happen?

Listen, the USA abandoned its responsibility to Afghanistan after the Soviets left. Reap what you sow.”

“Au contraire Violin, the lands acquired in the 1967 Arab/Israeli Six Day War were not the result of a defensive action. That is unless you consider destroying the Eygptian, Syrian, and Jordanian air forces and invading the West Bank first a defensive move. The Arabs may have beating the drums of war but they did not attack first. The occupation of Trans-Jordan was always the intent of Israel in 1967. They would have done it in 1948 if they were strong enough. It has also always been the intent of the Israeli extremists to expel all non-Jewish residents from those lands. This applies to Muslims and Christians alike. One only has to look at the writings of Theodor Hertzl (the founder of modern Zionism) to see that certain parties in Israel will never willingly allow the multi-cultural Israel or the creation of a Palestinian state. Let us hope that fairer minded people in that land will prevail.”

“China's economy is not growing because they are communist. It is growing because they are allowing limited capitalism. The more the economy grows the less the limits on capitalism.”