Free Speech and Dissent in the USA

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“Man suspended for anti-Bush message

CLEVELAND, Ohio (AP) -- A maintenance worker was suspended for displaying a sign with the word "traitor" on his state snowplow while helping provide security for President Bush's motorcade, officials said.

Michael Gerstenslager was asked to park a snowplow on an entrance ramp to block access to a highway the president's motorcade used to travel from Cleveland Hopkins International Airport into downtown Cleveland on Wednesday.

A state trooper in the president's motorcade saw the sign and reported it to the Ohio Department of Transportation, the agency's spokeswoman, Lora Hummer, said.

Gerstenslager does not have a listed telephone number and could not be reached for comment.

Gerstenslager is suspended with pay while the department investigates, Hummer said. She said she could not identify potential violations or penalties until the investigation is complete. Discipline can range from a verbal warning to dismissal.

A disciplinary hearing will occur next week.”

“Someone ought to investigate that state trooper.”

“hummer”

“Next, they'll investigate everyone who saw the sign but Didn't report it.....”

“If he gets fired over this I hope the ACLU picks up his case. Maybe he shouldn't have used State owned equipment in his protest, but it doesn't seem like he oughta be fired.”

“Investigate the Trooper for what, MarkO? Tell me what law he broke.”

“for being a busybody arsshole! What was happening that really needed any attention anyway? What law was being broken?”

“Heaven Forbid the Beeeeeyotch in Chief should discover that people disagree with him, LMAO

If that guy hadn't been there in an official capacity, he would've been sequestered in some "Free Speech Zone" on the other side of the county.”

“that's exactly right.

Maybe someone could find a pic of his little sign and we could all send email en masse to the white house.”

“The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution does not bar hiring or firing for political reasons. If state law prohibits firing for political reasons, then the state will have to come up with a rule violation to fire the individual. If there is a state law that prohibits firing for political reasons, and he violated no rule, then he can't be legally fired. Peter Wray, a spokesman for the Ohio Civil Service Employees Association, the union that represents Gerstenslager, described the incident as "fairly innocent."

His attorney should argue that you can't fire him for being a poor speller. He obviously was complimenting Bush by reference to his views on free trade, since Bush is a well know FREE TRADER.”

“They may be listening

We must be Vewwy Vewwy Qwiet........”

“for being a busybody arsshole! What was happening that really needed any attention anyway? What law was being broken?"
Roam Around
10:30:34 PM
03/14/04

So now being a busybody #&%!$ is a crime?”

“What law was being broken? Almost all political jurisdictions have laws prohibiting government employees from using government property for partisan activities and prohibiting political activities while working. Under the Hatch Act, Federal employees can't do a lot of political activities even off-duty. In Illinois, government employees have been sentenced to the penitentiary for using government resources to campaign with. Those laws are constitutional. The State Trooper was just doing his duty reporting a violation of the law.

Hey Stickman,if "being a busybody #&%!$ is a crime", some of the above posters would be doing hard time. Ha Ha Ha Ha.”

“So if his sign had been freestanding on the ground, instead of on the plow, none of this would be happening?

If that's the case I bet this guys is kicking himself.

No stickman, being a busy body arsehole is not a crime, that was sarcasm. And if it was a crime there'd be no little old ladies to make cakes for all the church bake sales.”

“i bet stickman would change his tune if somebody got in trouble for protesting clinton”

“If it was me I would see if the cop broke union by-laws against back-stabbing fellow members.

When I was Teamster(active) that was the case to keep drivers from ratting and picking on one another for reasons of petty jealously.

What sort of jerk would threaten another person's living for something so so petty?

stickman, I don't know if that fool broke any law, but I would certainly want to strike back.
There are enough people out of work as a result of Dubya's policies.

Jihad, snowplow driver!”

“It seems kind of trivial in comparison to Bush lying to the nation, and getting folks killed over his lie. Also, who is to say the jab was directed toward Bush? I guess if the shoe fits........”

“Wonder if the cop would've felt so compelled to report a possible rule violation if the sign had been in praise of Dubya?”

“...Prosecutor!

Almost all political jurisdictions have laws prohibiting government employees from using government property for partisan activities and prohibiting political activities while working.

According to the way that is worded, I think I would be able to raise an issue if the police department of New York City use as much as one police vehicle, or barricade, or what-have-you when the republican convention comes to town in August...”

“Police officer are supposed to be public servants.

If they want to be vigilantes they are in the wrong line of work.”

“Sensationalism will get you nowhere TomT. No use getting hysterical about it. Furthermore, being a State Trooper, he probably isn't in the union much less a truck driver's union. See, the union you belong to is usually related to what you do for a living, as much as that may shock you. Neat thing--Troopers don't drive snowplows. Now you can say you learned something today.

By the way 2scoops, I could care less what sign someone hangs on their truck. I thought it was the conservatives who can't seem to quit talking about Clinton.”

“Treebeard, if you can't see the difference, then it's no use explaining to you that crowd control is legal while campaigning with public property is illegal.

Hey Buddha Bear, what you are saying its okay to break the law if the lawbreaker is advocating a position you agree in. Not.

MarkO, vigilantees break the law. The trooper was just following the law. And any union gag rules that violate state law regarding how the troopers do their job would be void and null as against public policy.”

“stickmanwalking - The union you belong to does have something to do with what you do for a living, but almost all are affilitaed with the AFL-CIO. I know the snowplow guy is with AFSCME, I'm not sure about the cop.

"Hey Buddha Bear, what you are saying its okay to break the law if the lawbreaker is advocating a position you agree in. Not."
---prosecutor
05:30:44 PM
03/15/04


Well ole' prosecutor, first you'd have to prove that the slogan was directed toward Bush. Then, he'd have to be held to whatever laws and contractual rules that govern his employment, etc., right or wrong, just like Bush.

BTW - can you give me a reccomendation for law school?”

“Buddha Bear, you are correct on the burden of proof as to what it would take to discipline the snow plow driver. Unions win a lot of cases like that. That is why I, tongue in cheek, proposed a defense of an inability to spell. Unions have won disputes despite apparent adverse facts.

Law school? You already know how to kick lawyers butt as a union negotiator. Why would you want to use your skills to make 6 figures when you already have a successful career embarrassing the lawyers who represent management. Sure I'll give you a recommendation. Are you sure you want to come over to the dark side?”

“I wouldn't doubt the FOP is associated with the "major" unions, but who knows if this Trooper was in the FOP. Outside of major cities, I don't think union membership is as much an issue for police as it is other professions. It's big in NY and some of the New England states, but I don't know about elsewhere. Probably wouldn't be any repercussions from the union towards the Trooper. Personally if I saw something like that, I'd probably mention it in conversation with friends, but I don't think it would be anything that needed to be reported to anyone.

As far as the truck driver, I'd say that the problem with what he did probably had something to do with using state property in political activities or something vague like that. I think it is a non-event in the long run.”

“"I'd say that the problem with what he did probably had something to do with using state property in political activities"

true. its still not the cops place to do anything about it, appropriate usage or not”

“Unless there is actually some state law that makes it a criminal offense. Ohio has some stupid laws, so it's conceivable.”

“StickManWalking, you are correct about Ohio. Ohio is one of nine states that still operates under a “Hatch Act” which prohibits any classified, public employee from engaging in any partisan political activity…not only in the workplace, but on their free time as well.”

“then they should change the law. it may be unprofessional and unethical, but criminal? gimme a break”

“Kentucky has a similar law. I had to take a political sticker off my private vehicle.”

“well there you go. thats kentucky for ya. you cant even buy alcohol for the reception when you get married to your cousin in some counties”

“it's no use explaining to you that crowd control is legal while campaigning with public property is illegal.


Prosecutor, are you kidding me? Man, that is one huge misuse of a term. The guy had a sign that may or may not have even been directed where the officer thought it was and you call that crowd control? Give me a break, man. Besides, you are a person of the legal profession. You know as well as I do that when you are interpreting the law, the meaning is all in the terminology and how it's interpreted. I was clearly doing that with your post. I can only conclude that you are being deliberately evasive!”

“LOL. Treebeard, you are a funny man. Re-read your post first. Ha Ha Ha Ha.”

“Ok, I read it. Please let me in on the joke?”

“there's a big slimey booger on your forehead, tree...”

“Stickman, you sure can be a condecending little excuse for a man.

I avoid throwing insults your way, realizing you are an un-worldly young man from a third-world state with a lot to learn about people.

The only thing I learn from you, over and over again, is that you are a vindictive little prick.


I'll stay out of Kentucky.”

“MarkO: 7 unwarranted insults hurled at StickManWalking.
0 facts posted.

StickManWalking:
O insults hurled.
8 facts posted.”

“I've been holding it in, procecutor.

What's it to ya?”

“prosecutor, anyone with just a bit of imagination could see that I was using my Teamster experience as an example of union by-laws that protect members from back-stabbing.

I in no way suggested that the state cop was a plow driver or a Teamster.

Stickboy has been askin' for it for a long time and I have shown restraint up to today.”

“Mark, Prosecutor will probably just laugh at you. That's what he did to me. See above...”

“"Now you can say you learned something today..."

That's what got me going.
And that coming from a young man still wet behind the ears.

I don't know where prosecutor got "7 insults" from, I only heaved four by my count.”

“MarkO either can't count or wants to see his words repeated:

1. "condecending"
2. "little excuse for a man"
3. "un-worldly"
4. "from a third-world state"
5. "a lot to learn about people"
6. "vindictive"
7. "little prick"”

“#5. not an insult

#6 & #7 one insult

Again, prosecutor what's it to ya?

Your son has been takin' potshots at me for a long time.


Bugger off!”

“boys boys. ive hiked with both of you fine gentlemen and i find you both of excellent quality. shake hands and drop it”

“Hey, both of you have the right to free speech, and free typing.”

“That's all I can stands and I can't stands no more!!!!

Stormbringer, what are you trying to do?

Dan, I can do free printing too!”

“I think bringing Sticman's pee-pee size into it was really uncalled for.”

“Geez Violin, my meaning was more like "young jerk" or "punk kid".

No innuendo was intended.”