Flying Today Might Get You Shot!

“This is from counterpunch.org. I don't care if the TT "patriots" read this or not. Let them graze in peace. For the rest of you, it should give rise to contemplation.


My Day At the Airport

By Nancy Oden

"On Thursday, November 1, 2001, I left my farmhouse on the North Coast of Maine, where I'm an organic grower, and headed for the Bangor International Airport in Bangor, Maine. I was dressed conservatively in a long, brown skirt with a matching jacket and turtleneck sweater, no jewelry, no buttons or other political indications attached, looking very like other women my age in this part of the world.

I am a relatively well known environmental, social, and political activist who has run for public office. It should be noted that, while I've been an activist for over thirty years, I've never been arrested, nor has there been anything in my life that would signal I meant harm to anyone.
Also, this was the third time this year I had traveled out of (or attempted to, in this case) Bangor Airport on American Airlines using an e-ticket purchased from Priceline.com bought weeks before with my own credit card. They had no reason for profiling and singling me out. It had to have been because of my political views which, of course, is not a good reason (see U.S. Constitution's first Ten Amendments, otherwise known as the Bill of Rights).
I was headed for Chicago for a Green Party USA National Coordinating Committee meeting, where I was to speak the next night on biochemical warfare and pesticides as weapons of war. I was also scheduled to interview job applicants, present several proposals and financial reports, and so on. I am a lead person on the National Coordinating Committee of the Green Party USA (the original Green Party, although there is now another which took a very similar name).
I arrived at the Bangor Airport the now-requisite two hours ahead of the flight and walked in to the airport to the sight of a couple of dozen National Guard troops carrying machine guns in their hands wandering around the lobby. I walked down to the American Airlines ticket counter, where there were no other passengers, and told the airlines ticket agent my name. I was holding out my picture ID and the printed itinerary they told us to bring, but he barely glanced at them. I remember thinking, "Does he have a picture of me under that counter? Why didn't he look at my ID?"
No one checked my ID at any time. They all knew what I looked like and, it became clear, my antiwar stance. I am not that well known that they would have known me on sight. Why were they briefed about me before I arrived at the airport? What were they told? Was it the FBI or some other agency? Which one?
The ticket agent spent an inordinate amount of time on his computer, then finally produced a boarding pass with a large "S" written on it. I asked him what that meant, and he said I had been picked to have my bags searched. Well, one expects that now, so I said, "Oh, that's okay." But I had a feeling there was more.
Since there was no one else around, I turned back to him and looked him in the eye - he seemed a decent guy - and asked him, "My being picked wasn't random, was it?" He hesitated a moment, but then said, "No, your name was already flagged in the computer and you would have been searched in any case." Well, still possibly coincidence.
Then to the x-ray for my bags and me. I said to the two women sitting by the machine that scans the bags. sort of apologetically, "I've been picked to have my bags searched. I know this might sound silly, but since you handle all these people's bags and belongings--with the Anthrax scare and all--I'd like it if whoever searches through my clothes and things wash their hands first." They looked at me with hate and loathing and one said, "We don't want YOUR germs, either." (Turns out they wear rubber gloves.)
"Whoa," I thought, "either I'm back in kindergarten or these normally quite civil women have some reason for being hostile." I had the distinct feeling they had been told awful things about me - I want to know what they were told about this profiled individual coming to their airport.
Neither my bags nor I set off any beeps in the machinery so we walked right through to the boarding area. Here I sat down with the other passengers. There was one National Guard soldier in the boarding area; he was a short man with a black eye wearing camo gear and carrying a machine gun.
Soon after I sat down, the National Guardsman looked at the dozen or so passengers, his eyes stopping at me and he yelled, "Bring those bags over here!" Since he didn't call my name, how did he know which person was me, since I did not look appreciably different from the others?
When I didn't move fast enough, he yelled again, "Hurry up! Move! Bring those bags up here!" This did not make me move faster. By now people were beginning to stare at me as if I might possibly be someone bent on doing something wrong.
I set my two smallish bags on the table where two women were waiting to search my bags. As one of them had trouble with a zipper on my older bag, I said, "Oh, that zipper is not right, here, let me open it for you," and I reached over the table to undo the zipper. Immediately, the soldier yelled out, "Get your hands away from there!" By now the other passengers were getting nervous, of course.
He was standing at the end of the table with the women on one side looking in my bags and me standing on the other side of the table. I turned to face him, which put my back towards everyone else, and he grabbed my left arm and began loudly spouting pro-war nonsense into my face. "Don't you understand we have to get them before they get us? Don't you understand what happened September 11?" and so on.
I immediately pulled my arm away from him and said, "Do not touch me. You cannot do that," and stepped back a foot or so, saying that I didn't want to hear his views on why he thought we should kill starving, helpless people in Afghanistan.
He grabbed for me again. I stepped back further stating emphatically, "Do Not Touch Me," and further emphasizing that I did not want to listen to his views on the war. He was about to leave his position and come after me again, but I saw the senior security man who is usually there shake his head "No" at the soldier, who then backed off, but he was angry that I would not submit to his holding me while he forced his views on me.
I turned and there just a couple of inches away was the man with the metal-detecting wand. I stepped back a foot or two so he wasn't right up against me, and he did the wand thing. I was the only one whose bags were searched. For a woman of a certain age such as myself to stand there with arms outstretched while a man skimmed my body with a device was very embarrassing and demeaning.
I asked him not to touch me with the wand, as I didn't know what it was, but, of course, he had to touch my shoulder with it. I ignored this, just wanting to get out of there. While he was doing the wand thing, I heard the soldier, who was behind me, say, "Don't let her on the plane." I thought he was talking to himself.
Then they were done with the searching, and I walked the three feet to the boarding gate. The American Airlines agent said, "You can't get on the plane." I asked why. He replied, "Because he [indicating the soldier] says you didn't cooperate with the search." I said, "But you were standing here the whole time. Didn't you see him grab my arm and talk loudly into my face?" He said he couldn't see that because my back was to people, only saw me back off.
I then told the American Airlines agent that I needed to get to Chicago and stated what I had to do there. The American Airlines agent then said, rather softly, probably so the guardsman soldier couldn't hear, "We'll put you on the four o'clock plane; that's the last one out today that you can go through Boston and still get to Chicago tonight." I replied, "Fine, let's just do this. I don't care if I'm late so long as I get there."
Unfortunately, the Guardsman overheard, and he wasn't done with me. Clearly, this non-subservient female had to be punished for not being sufficiently obsequious. He saw me picking up my bags to go out into the lobby and wait for the 4 o'clock plane, and yelled (that seemed to be his only means of communication), "Come With Me!" I asked, "Why? Where are we going?" He replied, louder, "Come With Me!"
A few people to whom I've told this insist the government/military is trying to "criminalize" me and other political activists who don't have criminal records. This is what's done to people of color. When they're harassed and/or beaten by police, they eventually, of course, do something to protect themselves and then get arrested for hitting an officer or whatever. If they then get convicted of a felony, they've go to prison and probably a few years of parole when one's rights are mostly non-existent, and draconian restrictions are put upon one's activities. Convicted felons lose a lot of rights in this country: their travel is henceforth limited, in some states they can't vote, own a gun, and various other limitations.
Under the circumstances, and because I had a few hours until four o'clock anyway, it seemed best to go with the guardsman. The circumstances being that each individual soldier/national guardsman seems to be The Law unto themselves. Each of them makes it up as they go along, punishing people who don't hop to. Military law is not democracy.
He took me to the entrance area, apart from anyone else. Then he ordered, loudly, "Sit Down!" I gave him a look and then sat. The soldier found the airport policeman and told him to stay with me. Upon reflection, I probably wasn't free to leave, but I thought I was waiting for the next plane so just stayed there.
The Airport policeman was a pleasant local man and we talked about what had just happened as well as people we knew, etc. Within minutes I looked up to see 5-6 National Guardsmen in their camo gear all carrying machine guns marching in a sort of formation towards me. I was sitting down quietly talking with the policeman. The situation looked like a bad movie.
It occurred to me that this is how people get "disappeared," which has happened to over 1,200 Americans so far since September 11. We used to hear about this only in repressive military regimes in other places (usually bolstered by our tax dollars). I'm sure they were ready to arrest me for allegedly "not cooperating with a security search," with which I had, indeed, cooperated.
All of a sudden the ludicrousness of the situation struck me. There I am, sitting down with my bags, a woman clearly not a physical threat, and this phalanx of soldiers in formation descends upon me ready to arrest me for something I did not do. I gave a little laugh and said to the lead man, "What, all this, just for me?" Then, I asked, "What's this really about? What's going on here?"
He replied, "We understand you didn't cooperate with a security search." I said, "That's ridiculous. They searched my bags and they did the wand search. The only problem was your man here [I indicated the short guy with the black eye] grabbing my arm and spouting pro-war views loudly in my face." The lead soldier (I don't know his rank) said, astonishingly, "He told me only hit your arm."
I looked at the lead soldier wide-eyed with a few unbidden (certainly unwanted when I'm trying to look fierce) tears in my eyes, and asked, "Even if that's all he had done, would that be okay?" I think he then realized the guardsman had been way out of line and said, "Wait here." They left, and the policeman stayed with me. I don't really think I was free to go, although I had not been arrested.
I found out later they had gone upstairs and told the Bangor Airport manager to tell all airlines in the Airport not to allow me to fly out of Bangor that day, and possibly more than just that one day. Since the military are in charge of our airports and they can override civilians in charge, this was made to happen.
I was to be punished for the crime of questioning their authority, especially for the guardsman to hold my arm and force me to listen to his brain-washed rantings.
Every airline in the Bangor Airport was given my name and told that I did not cooperate with a security search. Not cooperating with a security search at an airport is a federal crime. If, indeed, I had not cooperated, they would have arrested me right then and there. But I had been searched so they couldn't say that.
However, now I have to wonder if every airline in the world doesn't have me in their computer as a person who didn't cooperate with the security search, which means they can deny me passage in their airplanes. We will find out as time goes on.
They told the policeman this news and had him tell me that I wouldn't be allowed to fly out of Bangor that day. So I said I had to go American Airlines and get my money back. The policeman came with me.
The same AA clerk was at the counter. He stepped outside the counter to converse with the policeman and me. He confirmed that they had been told not to allow me to fly out of Bangor that day. I asked him about the next day and he said he didn't know. This is not a small matter for me since the Bangor Airport is 100 miles from where I live.
The AA clerk then suggested I drive to Boston (5-1/2 hour drive) and fly out of there. There were several problems with that, I told him. First, my old car barely made it the 100 miles to the Bangor Airport and might not make it to Boston or back again. Then there were the parking fees in Boston as well as the fact that I might not be allowed to fly out of there or might not be able to get a seat once I got there. Also, if they would not honor my now-expired ticket, I'd have to pay full fare, which I couldn't afford. Not a serious option.
I then asked the American Airlines clerk for my money back so I might consider some alternative means of transport. He said he couldn't refund my money. I asked him why and he said, "It's a non-refundable ticket." This was so ridiculous that all three of us laughed a little. All the airlines issue tickets on other tickets all the time. So I asked him again and he said he couldn't refund the ticket, indicating it wasn't his decision, which I understood, and told him I'd take it up with the airline later.
Then the policeman, half apologetically, told me I'd been banned from the Airport for that day, and that he had to escort me out. I told him I understood that he was under the military's rule, and that I would call it his walking me to the door, rather than escorting me out of the Airport. We walked to the exit. I thanked him for being kind and considerate, which he had been, and left with the sinking feeling that something bad is happening to our country. And this is how it begins.
Postscript:
I have since gotten in touch with the Bangor Airport manager who assures me that it's fine with them if they fly out of there, but that it ultimately isn't their decision.
I've also been told by American Airlines' head of security in Texas that I am welcome to fly on their airline any time, and that they will contact Priceline.com about both of them giving my money back. This is all good, excepting that the military can arbitrarily, at any time, revoke my right to travel for no good reason, as they did November 1 in Bangor, Maine. So long as the military are in charge of civilian affairs, we are not free; we do not have our Bill of Rights protecting us because they've abrogated it and declared themselves the Law.
We are forming a national Bill of Rights Defense Committee, and invite all of you and/or groups you're affiliated with to help us form such a coalition based on defense of our civil liberties. Please email back saying you'll be part of this new coalition of groups and individuals, and include your name and phone number. Then we can call a meeting to decide what to do. We need a large, strong, united voice to tell the military government we now have (Bush, Sr., who used to be not only President but before that head of the CIA, Dick Cheney, Daddy Bush's fellow oil man and defense contractor, and the Pentagon brass) that we will not accept killing democracy in order to save it.
We do not want corporations, with their only interest in next quarter's profits, running the world. We, the people, should be making the decisions that affect our lives. Real Democracy. Nothing less will do."

Nancy Oden is an organic farmer and Green Party organizer. She lives in Jonesboro, Maine. She can be contacted at: cleanearth@acadia.net”

“Sounds like she should drive instead of fly.

waaaa waaaaa waaaaa

Some people need more attention than others.”

“bizstalker,
Coming from you shouldn't that be,

"Baaaaa.....baaaa
......Baaaaaaah!" ??”

“Here is a long and boring diatribe of endless dribble from some twerp who wouldn't have the brains to pour p*ss out of a boot, even if the instructions were written on the heel. I cut and pasted it from some nondescript website that no one with more responsibilities than that of a four-year-old would have the time to read, but I think it's so damn important that Matt the Webmaster should buy an extra hard drive so he can have a place to store all this extra mundane crap. I mean, cutting and pasting is - SO - fun, don't you think? Anyway, like I was saying, you all should read this, even though I hate every one of you, just because I'm so damn superior to you all, especially those of you who don't have the guts to hate their own country. I mean, we suck, right? Oh well, with that said, I would like to stress that you really should read this, because I cut and pasted it, and that's pretty cool. But remember, I don't care if you read this or not... but you should. Because if you read it, you'll just HAVE to admit that I've discovered yet another amazing and yet harsh TRUTH about Amerika that none of you idiots seem to grasp, and then you'll have to admit (at least to yourselves) that I'M WAY MORE BOSS THAN YOU GUYS. But enough about me. I just think that I've made the world a better place by cutting and pasting this long quote from the East Rutherford Worker's Party Lament, don't you? So, READ IT (although I don't care if you do):

Comrades: I am here to tell you that the Great Satan is blah blah blah. What we need to ask ourselves is blah blah blah. It's just amazing , when you realize that blah blah blah. Why blah don't blah more blah care blah about blah what blah I've blah got blah to blah say? Blah, you say? Well, just remember, more blah is needed before blah can blah. For example, the blah that the US Government blahs, is actually blah when one considers that blah is blah on a grander blah. I ask, by what blah does our own "elected" government blah us with blah, when blah is being blahed in over forty nations around the blah? It's because blah is connected to big blah and the multinational blahs. That's right, you've blahed it - oil. But that's not blah. More blah is blah in terms of blah that is secretly blahed by organizations like the CIA and the National Blah Agency. But don't blah that it will remain that blah. A blah will come when the blah of the world will blah, and all Capitalist blah will succumb to the rightous blah of Blahism under the banner of blah. But that blah will NOT blah without the blah of every hard blahing Blahist, currently blah in Amerika. I blah on all Blahists to heed my blah, and blah this as a blah to the running-dog blahs of imperiablah Ameriblah, that blah blah, blah blah blah blah!”

“ROTFLMAO!!!!”

“There is definitely weird SHIT going on in this country now. You don't think that incident above is weird?? Hmmmmmmm, maybe if it happened to you.....

I know of a couple semi-strange things personally. Yes, personally. This government has taken liberties with many things in the face of fighting terrorism. I think we should wipe out terrorist extremists, but I also think Big Brother has arrived”

“I think there's more than one side of the story and we haven't heard it.”

“Solitary Hiker. Was this woman assaulted? I don't think so. Is airport security taking precautions. Yes. If she doesn't like the rules she should drive.

lizs, yes, weird things are happening. This isn't one of them. This is just another whining environmentalist. That make those of us who intelligently want to preserve the environment look bad.”

“Where's Dunaden? he he he

I love how Solitary Hiker & Dunaden think they are such avid environmentalists. 'We're good, you're bad .' Stating you're an environmentalist does not make you one.
What exactly are you doing that's so much better than us anyway? Do you drive an electric car? Use solar power exclusively? Ride your bike to work? Grow your own vegetables? Eat organic foods? Give me a freaking break! How is this helping society?
At my job, with one decision I will have more of an impact on the environment than you will in your whole life of this piddly crap. Developing programs which eliminate chrome, reducing VOC emissions, and hazardous solvents, for example. Don't assume someone is not an environmentalist because they don't ooze GRANOLAism.”

“"...my old car barely made it the 100 miles to the Bangor Airport and might not make it to Boston or back again."

yeah, i'm sure that her old car's emissions are GREAT for the environment. LOL!!!!

that story sounds like it was written by a fourth grader. who edits that crap? it also sounds like the kind of bullsh!t fiction that one would write.”

“The problem I have with organic farmers is this: Our country spends the LEAST amount of our gross income on food (I think it is like 2%) than any other country in the world. In some countries it is as high as 50%! We also have the highest quality of food than any other country in the world. This is due mainly to effects by the U.S. Department of Agriculture.

Do organic farmers have resources that the USDA doesn't? Here's a nice link. Get educated.

U.S. Department of Agriculture”

“I don't understand what you're saying Biz. Organic farmers and the USDA don't cooperate? Organic farmers force US citizens to spend less $ on food? Am I missing something important? (I do have a raging headache, maybe my mind is fuzzier than usual)”

“I guess that wasn't too clear.

The USDA spends millions of dollars anually 1) to make our food safe
2) to make it cheap (so people don't starve)
and 3) to help farmers farm efficiently and produce a profit.
Organic farmers come along and say pesticides and insecticides are bad..also, that conventional farming is wrong. Let's go back to the old way of doing things. How can they argue this when we have the cheapest, safest food source of any country in the world? In my experience (I used to work for the USDA) organic farmers are not cooperative with the USDA. They have adopted an 'us against them' mentality.”

“that sounds familiar. hmmm...”

“The 2% statement cleared for me as soon as I logged off.”

“I think Lincoln used secret courts but then again, I consider Lincoln a far more honorable individual than G.W. Jr.

I support our government but always under scrutiny, especially when the war machine gets rolling. Can anyone say McCarthyism? An easily manipulated president, a seasoned-CIA VP and a right-wing Gen. Attn. seems a pretty good combination for something along those lines...”

“Exactly, roseymonster. Say, didn't that right-wing AG get beat by a dead man in his campaign bid one year ago in Missouri? I believe so. That should say something.

And Biz? You may be the nicest person in the world, but it sounds like you're a bureaucrat. (that itself is a nasty word in some areans). The government writes your check. You appear to tow the "company" line.

I know a lot of farmers who are not happy with government policy. I grew up on a farm. I report on farmers. I know other people who ask why are there starving people in the US when farmers are being paid not to farm portions of their ag land (while we drop foodstuffs to people half a country away, who we are fighting against.)

It's not a personal attack here, Biz. I would urge anyone to really question what a bureaucrat says. It all goes back to Orbitmanifesto's call to the general public to "not be SHEEP PEOPLE." Ask questions. Don't just blindly follow.”

“SH, next time post a f***ing link you bandwith bandit.”

“Hey, I've heard that the Kmart security people are performing body cavity searches on any Middle Easterner found in the Martha Stewart Bed and Bath collection. It's insane, really.”

“I don't post links. If you want links, go to the link thread.

As far as bandwidth usage, tell the idiots posting pictures and little moving cartoons
to stop wasting bandwidth. My cut-and-paste posts are worth the bandwidth. Get used to it.”

“

"I love flying!"

Mrs. Nigal”

“

"I just wish the seats were wider damn it!"

Nigal Sr.”

“Hey lizs, I love ya, but I have to point something out....

"Exactly, roseymonster. Say, didn't that right-wing AG get beat by a dead man in his campaign bid one year ago in Missouri? I believe so. That should say something."
--LizS

Yeah, it should say how stupid the people that voted for him were.

BTW - Looks like Mrs. Nigal loves "crashing" too.

lol”

“Or... people shown an opportunity to send a startling message in a big way -- and they did it.

How often do you get a chance to vote against a despised man in such a manner? And wouldn't the results be utterly humiliating?

Ahhhhhhhhhhh... and a good Monday to all. :-)”

“Hey SH -

I really appreciate being called an idiot. It does a lot to win me over to your obviously superior views. FYI posting images hosted on other sites uses none of matt's bandwidth but I'm sure you knew that already, genius that you are.

Here is another viewpoint on this story: This is how you post a link.

I wasn't there. I don't know what happened. I do know that I would be extremely reluctant to board a plane with someone who had become abusive to security screeners and didn't cooperate with a routine search.”

“I'm very uneasy about a lot of the 'security' measures being instituted (e.g., secret military tribunals)...but I have a hard time seeing Nancy Oden as much of a victim. By her own account, she was uncooperative, and violated about a dozen basic procedures (for example: never reach for your bag when they're searching it, because someone who does that might be trying to pull a gun).

Check out the other side of the story at Snopes; just search for 'Oden' and you'll find it.”

“That was the link I posted, tehipite.

Here is an interview she gave counterpunch, where she expands her story a little. In paragraph 4 she describes her failure to cooperate. In paragraph 8 she talks about her passive resistance and in paragraph 9 she details how it took 6 national guardsman to transport her and her luggage.

Her own words detail how "she refused to cooperate" as charged by airport personnel.

I ask you, would you feel comfortable flying next to this person?”

“This is all well and good but if you want the other, OTHER side of the story (the intellectually stunted side), go here.


"(e.g., secret military tribunals)..."

Which are these?”

“The ones that will be used to try charged terrorists. Oh course you wont know:

1. who is being tried
2. when they are being tried
3. why they are being tried

You may get to know when they are sent to the slammer or executed. But don't count on it.

Just leave it up to Bush and his cronies to "do the right thang."”

“Oh, OK. I see. I have no problem with a military trial for terrorists. These are courts that are established and already have protocol. It?s not like they are thrown together , last minute things. To think that we would snatch and grabs these turds, bring them back here and then give them a civil trial complete with all the rights and privileges as an American citizen is absolute lunacy. Doesn?t Washington D.C. have a nice professional soccer stadium that?s not being used right now? Hmmm, sounds like a good forum to me.”

“Thumbs down!!!! Release the lions!!”

“RARRRR!!!!”

“He (they) (whoever they are) should be killed on the spot. NOt brought anywhere for any trial.

However, their deaths should be kept secret, so that we (whoever we are) have an excuse to keep "looking" for him (them).

That way we can just go in and out of countries randomly when we want to get more terrorists . . .always with a ready made excuse.”

“Sorry, Violin--I should have checked out your link before posting my own. Looks like we pretty much agree, though.”

“No need to apologize.

I'm concerned about civil rights infringements but it would help people stay focused if self-serving 'victims' wouldn't cry wolf.”

“Amen to that, Violin.

And Nigal, think about how politically sensitive these trials will be, and how much pressure there will be to get a conviction--any conviction. Those are exactly the circumstances that demand every possible safeguard in the criminal justice system, if for no other reason than to ensure the right people get tried and convicted (and the wrong ones don't). Besides being less rigorous to begin with, the military trials Bush proposes would not be subject to judicial review of any kind; in other words, the only appeal would be to someone who has a strong political motivation not to overturn any conviction. Add it all up, and you have a system in which any error (and we know justice errs) would likely be perpetuated rather than corrected.

Also, whether we are aware of it or not, much of whatever faith we have in the criminal justice system stems from its transparency. We may not agree with the result in every case (hello, OJ!), but at least if we want to we can follow, step by step, how that result was obtained. Conversely, I think secrecy would undermine confidence in the results of any terrorism trials.”

“Just the idea of secretly trying people and sentencing them without any one else knowing gives me the willies.

I want justice but I am not sure this it it.”

“The military trials in Nuremberg worked okay when we were trying Nazis, so why not for the "suspected" terrorists?

Also, these trials are a matter of National Security, do you really want public trials where intelligence information is revealed? This isn't just any old criminal or civil trial.”

“It wouldn't be a problem if they always indicted the right guys -- but they don't. Not always.
Then Capital Punishment on a 2/3 majority? It gives me the willies, too. If there's nothing wrong with it, why aren't we all tried in this fashion?

I have a close relative who prosecuted a 'spy case' about 15 years ago, and you can be sure there are VERY strict guidelines about how sources, methods and sensitive information is presented in court.

The original WTC bombers were tried in the usual way. What's the justification for changeing?”

“I think it's likely the Supreme Court will declare these tribunals unconstitutional.

"Perhaps the most admirable feature of the US Constitution is that it defines most of the fundamental rights it delineates as rights of "persons," not of citizens. "Persons," not citizens, are entitled to protection against unreasonable searches and seizures, against losses of liberty without due process, against denials of equal protection. Persons can forfeit some of those liberties, but only as the result of governmental proceedings in which their constitutional rights are protected throughout. There are no provisions for executive officials to decide unilaterally, in advance of any proof of guilt, which people are and are not "persons" who "deserve" to have such rights.

There are no such provisions for a very good reason: The US began committed to the principle that all persons were endowed with certain inalienable rights, and that governments were created to secure these rights. The founders of this country had a name for executive officials who decided, on their own authority, that some persons actually had no claim to such inalienable rights. They called them tyrants.

So should our courts, and so should we, today."
- By Rogers M. Smith”

“Exactly, V.

There is legal precedent for this tho'... and I forget the phrase in Latin... but it was the case of the German sabateurs during WWII and the tribunal set up by FDR.

But that was a 'declared' war... hmmmm.”

“(-a, +o)”

“Yup. In that case Congress had declared war and the Nazi saboteurs were captured as they sought to smuggle explosives into Florida. Therefore Germans were 'alien enemies' and the detainees entered the country illegally, with illegal weapons. They were tried as foreign combatants engaged in acts of war.

Congress has not declared war, nor was it even consulted. This act allows military tribunals to try lawfully admitted, long-time resident aliens from countries at peace with the US.

Very different animal.”

“BaSO4, one key difference is that the Nuremburg trials took place in military-occupied Germany, where there was no civilian authority. Bush's tribunals would take place on U.S. soil.

It's also worth noting that the Nuremburg trials were an international effort, rather than a unilateral U.S. initiative. I would hazard a guess that the competing interests of the countries involved served to some extent to keep the proceedings honest.

As for openness vs. secrecy, Tilt's point is well-taken. I think a more open trial would also have enormous propaganda value, both in demonstrating the American commitment to due process, and in laying out the evidence of Al Qaeda's involvement for all the world to see.”

“One down side to an open trial is that the prosecution couldn't use all available evidence for legitimate security reasons.”

“Also, who wants to give these punks a world stage?”

“Sure they can. Just seal the court records if there is concern about national security.”

“Violin, that's a reasonable point...but wouldn't a secret trial have much more propaganda value for the terrorists than anything they could say in court?”

“Okay, How about a secret trial and public executions....that would have a lot of propaganda value.”

“Too good for them, I think.

What kinda shape would bin Laden and the Boys be in after, say, 50 in 'The Shoe' at Pelican Bay?”