Survival question for class

“I was wondering if anyone had any good ideas for a survival situation to discuss in a winter camping/survival class. Presently, I read the facts of the incident on Mt. Hood from about 15 years ago, in which a party of climbers from a school were caught in a storm on Mt. Hood, and about 8 of them were killed. Can you think of some other incidents that would be interesting to discuss, which could be used to illustate some survival strategies?”

“over here in the east?.. how about being surrounded by WILDFIRE?”

“The Everest disaster in 1996 in which nine climbers died, including two of the most experienced Everest guides, would illustrate a lot of survival principles, I think...

They made mistakes that can be discussed.”

“I falled off a clift in the Windtooths and I was ded for a minit. Mebbe you can tell ever buddy to be carful when they are byside a clift and dont fall off and be ded. It aint no goooooood times!”

“At my theater, we had one of the failed Everest climbers come in and talk to our students about it. That was the only time I have ever seen 630 kids silent for a full hour. Is was one of the best speakers I have ever had in here.”

“Ken Killip was lost for several days in the Colorado Rocky Mountain National Park. He started his trip August 8, 1998.

There is a great article in National Geographic Adventure. It is the November/December 2001 issue.

The article discusses mental models and the many stages of panic.

It is a good survival article.”

“Not sure what age group you're talking about (or if it matters) and it wasn't winter either, but did you ever read "Lost on a Mountain in Maine?" Story about 12 yr old Donn Fendler who was lost for 9 days in Baxter Park. He still gives talks.”

“I wasn't going to try this - but here goes.

Emphasise preparation, 'survival' courses of 48 hours with a match, a knife, wire and a fish hook are rubbish IMHO. Anyone can survive 48 hours and you learn nothing.

In the Adirondack Park,you need a minimum of equipment (good boots,sensible clothes and snowshoes in the winter) or the rangers will turn you back. Emergency shelter (bivy sack) and a sleeping bag suitable for the season are a minimum if there's any chance you'll be caught out in bad weather overnight - but if you're reasonably fit, a head lamp will probably do.

Fire making equipment and a filter/purifier - chlorine tablets are good here - and a water bottle will see you through most everything.

In more remote areas, equipment becomes more important. Where I cut my wildernes teeth (northern Quebec), NO-ONE went ANYWHERE, ANYTIME without an axe. Mountain gear is necessary in other locales. I think you do need to keep it specific. There would be different needs for desert travel (an area of complete ignorance for me), for example.

Get a speaker to explain how he/they messed up, but keep it (him/her) specific for the locale. What did Mark Twight write? I think it was, 'Experience teaches how to do things right. We get experience from messing up.'

Happy trails.”

“Thanks for the good suggestions! Concerning the Everest climb, what specific points are you thinking could be illustrated? One that comes to mind is setting a firm turnaround time when climbing a peak. What else??

I'll check out that NG article, Tahoe. Thanks!”

“I'm not completely familiar with the details...so I am not sure about any of these points, but possibly:
. yes, the turn-around/bailout time
. there was a "competitive" aspect to it, esp. with the Imax filming crew there
. what is the protocol when the leader gets incapacitated?
. they had people in the group who were not fit for the climb (but had enough $$$)
. there was an issue with too many people on the "trail"--literally, a bottleneck at the Hillary Step just below the summit caused a significant delay...these were people from different groups but who had been camped todgether for weeks so perhaps they could have coordinated this better somehow

I know this is all very vague and I apologize for that. You'd have to do some reading to get the real facts. I am guessing that many of the lessons you want to illustrate, can be illustrated via discussion of that expedition.

Interesting footnote on the bail-out time: A teenager from (Sweden?) rode his bike from his home all the way to the foot of Everest, was going to climb Everest solo, was within hours of the summit and, after all of that, had the sense to bail out.”

“Poor leadership/preparation. Here in Utah we had some boy scout leaders ignore weather reports and ranger warnings. They took several kids into the Zion Narrows and when the flash flood hit about 1/2 of them drowned.

In Arizona about 5 years ago, same thing happened when a guide took 11 French and German tourists into a slot canyon near Lake Powell. Water from a rain storm about 40 miles away filled the canyon burying all but the guide under mud. They died.

More boy scout stories from Utah. A troop camped on a mountain peak and was struck by lightning. I think that one killed about seven. A couple years ago, leaders took about 25 kids into a canyon. The planned route out was to scramble a few hundred feet to the rim. Since none of the leaders had researched the trip, they didn't know most of the kids couldn't do it. They ran out of water and a search and rescue team hauled their butts out. Two weeks later, a different group of scouts did the same exact thing in the same exact canyon....Poor planning/Bad leadership.”

“Oooops. I just read the question again. On the first read, my brain didn't process the 'winter survival' part of it. Ummm...take all my stories, have them take place somewhere like upper Michigan in the winter and insert 'avalanche' instead of flood. Have the canyons be crevasses too.”

“They all new the turn-around time. It was THEIR choice to be there.
If the weather was fine or if Jon Krakauer wasnt there and wrote a book about it or if....
It comes down to what YOU consider an acceptable risk.
We weren't there so we can't even begin to imagine what it was like, altitude does silly things to your sense of judgement.
It can affect you even at moderate altitudes, let alone 8000m+.

Sh%t happens.”

“Well IB, while I can't think of any particularly famous winter camping tragedy that might help you illustrate the importance of being prepared for completely unexpected circumstances, I can suggest some everyday circumstances that your student might think about: layering and ventilation, what to do when you forget your fire making tools, getting wet in freezing weather, orienting yourself in a snow covered landscape, etc.”

“Well now that you mention it Hewhocomeswithfire, what do you do when you don't have firemaking tools, and noonecomeswithfire?”

“he flicks his bic.”

“Twig, do you have that book?”

“Radagast, when I wrote no fire making tools I meant no bic lighter either. IB: I'd suggest at least these actions: 1. remain calm 2. assess your situatin (when did you discover that you don't have any fire making tools, do you have enough daylight to return to shelter/warmth/etc. Do you have fuel but no flame? Can you spend the night outdoors without ingesting any warm food/liquid?) 3. If you decide to spend the night out find shelter if you didn't bring your own 4. Take an inventory of what you do have, everything you have-you might have some items that you can use to make a spark 5. conserve water
There are any number of possible circumstances during which the absence of fire during winter camping/backpacking won't kill you. If you have warm dry clothes, shelter, food that you can eat even if it isn't appetizing, water, sleeping bag, you'll be just fine. You'll probably miss hot food and beverages and the psychological reassurance of a fire (that is if you're in an area where open fires are permitted anyway) but you'll live. On the other hand there are circumstances in which your life is in danger if you can't get out of your wet clothes and warm yourself.”

“Check out "The Search for Haley" by Tim Ernst. The story of a little girl that recently got lost in the Ozarks. Awesome story!

www.timernst.com”

“Here's an interesting article http://classic.sacbee.com/news/news/old/local01_20010223.html. This is about the 2 skiers killed earlier this year at Tahoe area, not on slopes but in an avalanche while they were going cross-country. Applies to campers as well as skiers...anyone out in the mtns in winter!”

“You should check out the audiotape of "Into Thin Air" as incredible a book as it was , trust me it is mind blowing to hear it.
It seems to me beyond the FUBAR at the Hillary Step-it was too many people on the summit run on the same day.
You should also check the book by Jamling Norgay (Tenzing's Son)
it has a diffferent point of view of the season. "Touching My Fathers Soul" is the title I think.”