The CIA's Latest "Hero"

“I'm looking for current data, but here are figures for the early '90s . (http://www.lindesmith.org/library/sentence/behndbrs.html)

Russia has now surpassed the United States to become the world leader in its rate of incarceration, with 558 citizens per 100,000 population in its prison system. The rise of organized crime, political instability, and the transition to an uncertain economic future have all played a factor in crime rates and the use of imprisonment.
With 1.3 million Americans behind bars, the U.S. rate of incarceration is 519 per 100,000, second in the world among the 52 nations covered in this survey. (2) The U.S. rate has increased by 22 percent since 1989, and is generally 5-8 times the rate of most industrialized nations.
A racial breakdown of the U.S. inmate population shows that African-Americans are incarcerated at a rate that is more than six times that of whites -- 1,947 per 100,000, compared to 306 per 100,000.
Black males in the U.S. are incarcerated at more than four times the rate of black males in South Africa -- 3,822 per 100,000 versus 851 per 100,000.
The cost of incarceration nationally in the U.S. is estimated at $26.8 billion annually. Estimated costs of incarceration for African-American males are $11.6 billion annually.
The number of African-American males in prisons and jails in the U.S. 583,000 is greater than the number of African-American males enrolled in higher education 537,000.
Drug, property and public order offenders accounted for 84 percent of the 155 percent increase in new court commitments to state prison from 1980 to 1992, while violent offenders accounted for only 16 percent of the increase.”

“Ped my point was that comparing the US (with its high rate of incarceration) to the USSR and S.A. was apples and oranges, folks in those countries didnt have the privelege of fair trials and constitutional gaurantees as we do.

I do agree with your statement "There are trade offs and benefits to the kind of society we have." This hadnt been brought into the equation as of yet. This actually is the KEY difference between others and us. If you win here you win big, if you lose you lose big.

GS, I didnt miss the point. Obviously no sane person is proud of our shameful past (slavery for example). I reckon most folks are painting the rosey picture which when coupled with Sol's " we are sh!t" TYPE of statements gives a fairly balanced picture.”

“OK, I found some stats from earlier this year and the US is back on top with the highest rate of incarceration in the world:

(http://www.prisonstudies.org/)

The latest figures available from the World Prison Brief (2001)indicate that there are at least 8.7 million people held in penal institutions throughout the world, either as pre-trial detainees (remand prisoners) or having been convicted and sentenced (Annex 1). Since there are just over 6.1 billion people in the world, this means that the world prison population rate is approximately 140 per 100,000 citizens.

8. The United States is the country with the highest prison population rate in the world – just over 700 per 100,000 of the national population, or five times the overall world rate. In announcing these figures recently the US Department of Justice reported that this means that 1 in every 142 United States residents is being held in a penal institution.

9. Second on the world list is the Russian Federation which in January this year had a rate of 635 per 100,000 of the national population.”

“BTW Birch. I picked South Africa and the Soviet Union because they were amongst the worst.”

“OK more specific data to back up my claims. I hope someone will provide more up to date information:

By Tim Weiner, San Jose Mercury News, 3/13/91

WASHINGTON -- The United States is "the most violent and self-destructive nation on earth," a congressional report said Tuesday.

The Senate Judiciary Committee report depicted Americans killing, raping and robbing one another at a furious rate, surpassing every other country that keeps crime statistics.

The nation's citizens committed a record number of killings in 1990--at least 23,300, or nearly three an hour--and a record number of rapes, robberies and assaults, the committee said.

"In 1990, the United States led the world with its murder, rape and robbery rates," the report said. "When viewed from the national perspective, these crime rates are sobering. When viewed from the international perspective, they are truly embarrassing."

The report noted that the murder rate in the United States was more than twice that of Northern Ireland, which is torn by civil war; four times that of Italy; nine times England's and 11 times Japan's.

Violence against women in America was even more pervasive, the committee said.

The rape rate in the United States was eight times higher than in France, 15 times higher than in England, 23 times higher than in Italy and 26 times higher than in Japan, according to the report.”

“I think the numbers are better for the US... the economic boom of the 90s brought significant declines in the US crime rate... although I do recall seeing recently that the US still far outstripped the other democracies and developed nations in violent crime.”

“Pedxing, what are your views as to WHY the U.S. has such high rates of violent crime, crime against women, drug related crime, etc. resulting in very high incarceration rates?”

“Splash: I'm no Sociologist. The numbers are clear, but they don't tell me the reasons. I'd guess that drug laws and economic disparity are a big part of it. The crime rate goes down in good times. I think we also have a culture that glorifies violence and the use of force to solve problems. I think William Lederer's claim that American's are pre-occupied with issues of "losing face," might make sense.

I know I'm grossly oversimplifying, but: Any economic system is going to be perceived as unfair to some people. Under communist and socialist societies, people with particular skills and gifts who are feel deprived of the rewards due them rebel by emigrating, not working, or joining the black market. In this society with its competiveness, inherited wealth and power, and relatively low and weak social safety net, those on the out rebel through violence and theft.”

“What do you think the cause are Splash?”

“Ped, thanks for the info. I wasnt claiming that we arent the unfortunate record holder of highest incarceration on the planet. I was saying that this record doesnt make us somehow a bad or wrong place (which I perceived as the earlier tone). We have the freedom to do stupid stuff here. We also have the freedom to get locked up for doing it.

To whoever brought up Japan and Sweden... As an interesting aside. Those two nations are two of the most homogenous (sp?) nations on earth. Far less than 10% of folks in both nations are "imports".”

“I wasn't trying to say the US is a bad or wrong country. Or rather I was trying to say that the US is an imperfect country with lots of problems and lots of strengths.

I love my country the way a lot of guys love their wives. If you bash it, I get nervous and want to set you straight, but if you talk about it like its perfect with no flaws I can tell you different. It is my country, right or wrong: but that doesn't mean I won't say when I think its wrong. Of course, I am wrong soemtimes to... but that doesn't keep me from doing the best I can to think, study and formulate opinions.”

“My sentiments exactly.”

“Birch does raise one other factor in the crime and violence rates: the ethnic mixture. There are other countries, which have tremendous ethnic mixes and complex immigration patterns and the US beats them all for both violent crime and incarceration. Nonetheless, this is probably one factor.”

“Just remember that there are other countries where years of repressed ethnic hatred has completey boiled over rather than piecemeal like us. I think that Afghanistan, Indonesia, and the former Yugoslavia are good examples of this.”

“So when does Canada implode????LOL”

“LOL! Birch.

Good point Gear Slut. Ethnic tensions show up in different ways, and the US has done better than a lot of other countries have.”

“Every single superhero is on the side of the US. Pretty telling, I'd say.”

“Ever hear about ETHNIC CLEANSING Canada style? You go to your immigrant neighbors house and clea it for em!”

“LMAO! Now that was funny!”

“Sorry to miss most of this discussion.

I believe that our liberal extensive personal freedoms also cause us to experience higher crime rates. We are individualists, not team players, as a culture. I have not been off the continent, so all I know of other countries is from reading and friends. I know a lot of Canadians, and while they love their country, they are quite happy to live in the U.S. Europeans seem much less happy to be here, due to large cultural differences. People from South America and Asia LOVE it here. As to violence and drugs, I think that our extensive immigration has always allowed criminal elements to freely enter our country and set up shop. This is due to our unusual freedoms. I have Russian friends who thought the U.S. people were totally stupid, when they first came here because there was so little restriction on what people did here. Now, after being here for many years these Russians take our freedoms for granted and would not want to go back to the restrictions that they grew up with. One friend said that in Russia, if you wanted to move from the town you lived in to another town, you would have to make a request. If the town officials said no, you could not move there. There is bribery here in America, but not on the scale that is seen in many other countries. I've heard this from many different business people who have to travel and work abroad. The more restrictions on all the little details in life, the more difficult it is to engage in small time criminal activity. I'm sure that there are a lot of upper crust criminals that never see jail in other countries, just like in the U.S.

Domestic violence may be under-reported in a lot of countries. It was, here, until not that many years ago, I believe.

I know the U.S. is not perfect, but I am not willing to lose significant freedoms in trying to achieve something "more perfect". If I earn money, and limit the number of children I have, why should the government take my money and give it to someone else who had twice as many kids and can't feed them because they aren't working? If I give my money to the church, and they buy food for those kids, that's fine. But the government is not the best agency for taking care of the poor. Do I want the government to force people to have less children? No, that would require a loss of freedom. See, no perfect answers here.”

“How do you get 100 Canadians into a swimming pool?





Ask nicely.”

“How do you get 100 TT'ers into a swimming pool?




Set up a beer bar in the middle.”

“If parents don't care for(feed, clothe, shelter and educate) their children and the government does not then what becomes of these children?

No easy answers.......

Lower crime in other places is directly related to issues of welfare and education.

Child welfare closely follows income and education level.

It is a myth that people can have both happiness and poverty.”

“Tom T.,I have worked with the children that you are worried about. The worst part is that no matter what you do, or I do, or the government does, no one can make people be good parents. You can give parents money for food and they will buy alchohol and cigarettes. If you give them food stamps, then they will buy food, sell it, and then use that money to fuel their habits.

I had an alchoholic mother complain to me that her food stamps didn't buy enough food for her kids. By the end of the month, they were out of milk, etc. She was smoking a cigarette as she was complaining to me. Another mother complained to me the same type of thing, and then I heard a ringing, and she whipped out her cell phone and answered it. The only way to feed those kids is to physically feed those kids.”

“Re: The original post in this thread.

Am I the only one who has no problem with a number of mercenaries in the service of our enemy being whacked? IMO the CIA guy was doing his job, and died in his countries service.”

“That's kind a big blanket isn't it Splash? There are no good parents on public assistance?”

“Splash. I agree with a lot of what you say there. Sending peoples checks to their mail boxes (or direct deposit to their bank accounts) is a bad way to give aid.. especially to their kids. More direct methods may reduce their individual options, but often people who find themselves needing this kind of financial aid also need some guidance and structure. The freedom to make your own financial decisions is incentive for getting off the aid. Aid needs to be given respectfully, but with some structure.”

“I didn't say that, Violin, but good parents usually don't stay on public assistance for long. Some do, when majorly disabled, or in circumstances where they have taken in large numbers of foster children. There are many wonderful people taking care of poor children, disabled children, unwanted children, who themselves are on public assistance. Often the government doesn't do enough for those people because they are stretched thin taking care of the large numbers of those other people who are in my opinion bad parents. I wish I had a solution for this, but I don't.”

“The culture of dependence runs deep......on the aid of others as well as on substances.

Smoking and boozing is prevalent among the poor and less educated.

I suppose a "go to hell" lifestyle goes along with a relatively miserable life.

Someone gave me a bit of insight on the use of cell phones by the poor.
People living in shared and/or highly disorganized "households" have a tough time keeping up with the phone bills.
This is because many "family" members can run up your phone bill when you are not home even if you are reasonably responsible about it.
Having a cell phone keeps Bubba and all the other cousins from helping you to get cut off by the phone company.”

“I guess, Tom. When I was in college, we used to put a lock on the phone. Of course, those phones were rotary, and leased by the phone company. Now you can buy a phone for $10, so what you are saying makes sense.”

“Good point Tom. Cell phone prices have gone way down. I do know of one recently homeless man who got a cell phone the day he got evicted. He says it makes a big difference to be able to leave a reliable phone number as he looks for work, housing and assistance.”

“I suppose mooching can be a way of life in some neighborhoods.

There isn't a whole lotta "borrowing" going on where I live.

”

“Boy, are we off topic!”

“Gee, uhh ....LeSubtil, I don't have an answer for you. I believe in a lot of gray areas in these situations, but I don't feel like I really KNOW the facts on this one.”

“Le Subtil:

#1: My cousin was a POW in the Vietnam war. He was also a foreigner involved in a war. The fact that there were murders and torture of captured POW's from both sides did not make things any better for anyone. He received some measure of protection due to international concern and standards regarding treatment of POWs. The treatment of POWs is an important moral issue.

#2: These weren't mercenaries. They were idealogues. Yes they were the enemy. Enemy POWs.”

“Initial reports are that the initial stages of the revolt involved prisoners blowing up themselves (and nearby captors) with grenades they had hidden on their persons and grabbing guns from their guards. The Geneva Convention covers (among others) members of armed forces who have laid down their arms. It appears a significant number of these foreign fighters had never really disarmed and were therefore still active combatants, not prisoners of war.

I still think an inquiry is desirable. The NA is partially armed by the US and is acting under our direction to some degree at least so it is important that they observe the rules of war.

Here is a somewhat unflattering report from the British press that contains a more complete account(if possibly inaccurate) than I have seen in our press.”

“But then again, neither is killing 6,000 innocent people with jetliners.

Good day! 8)"
nigal
08:11:11 AM
11/30/01


That's a lie Nigal. Latest count is 3,100 dead or missing and expected to go even lower. The 6000 to 7,000 dead in the WTC was propaganda.”

“A thousand here, a thousand there.
Pretty soon you're starting to talk about some real casualties.”

“On a bumper sticker near a Marine Base:

Only God can forgive Osama bin Laden.

It's our job to arrange the meeting.

U.S. Marines”

“Thebacpac, propaganda is such a strong word. The early reports were 6000 to 7000 (in the early stages the number even went up to 10,000), now they're reducing it. Whatever, it's tit and tat.”

“When the second plane hit, I was predicting at least 20,000...

Thank God I was WAAAAAAAAY wrong...”

“Spock the backpacker: Calling Nigal a liar on that one is a much greater distortion than sticking with the earlier "high estimates" of the casualties.

Gojo's point is well taken.”

““ The 6000 to 7,000 dead in the WTC was propaganda.”

No. That would be my simple lack of knowledge and not knowing what the current count is.

When I finally found out about the news two days after in the BWCA I heard it was estimated at 50,000.”

“God bless anyone who lays down their life in spite of the fact that there are people in this country who will ignore their sacrifice.”