The CIA's Latest "Hero"

“As soon as I heard that the CIA was at this camp, I suspected something happened along these lines. Some websites are claiming a lot of these prisoners died with their hands tied behind their backs. Oh well, only countries that lose wars have to follow the rules of the Geneva Convention.



Dead US CIA Agent May Have
Provoked Taliban POW Slaughter
By Rashmee Z. Ahmed
The Times of India
www.indymedia.org
11-29-1

More information is coming to light about the so-called Mazar-I-Sharif Prison "Revolt." Johnny Spann, lauded by America as a "hero," may have provoked the "revolt" by shooting and killing 3 prisoners in cold blood before being sent to his own fate...

LONDON - The United Nations has joined human rights groups in demanding an urgent inquiry into the carnage at the Qala-i-Jhangi fort near the northern Afghan city of Mazar-i-Sharif, even as new information is emerging about how it started and the two Pakistani Taliban reported to be the last men alive in the fort, until the violence finally subsided on Wednesday.

Even as the CIA saluted its slain colleague, the first American fatality in Afghanistan, "American hero" Johnny? Mike? Spann, who died in the prison revolt, British journalists in Mazar-i-Sharif have begun reporting that Spann was less an innocent victim than the one who allegedly provoked the riot.

With allegations of "war crimes" against the US and UK coming in thick and fast for ignoring the Geneva Convention on the treatment of prisoners of war, United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights Commisioner, Mary Robinson, has echoed Kate Allen, director of the London-based Amnesty International in calling for an urgent inquiry.

Amnesty has said it is willing to send an observer to Afghanistan to monitor an inquiry.

On Wednesday night, the BBC?s authoritative domestic television programme Newsnight interviewed Oliver August, correspondent for The Times, London, in Mazar-i-Sharif, who said that Spann and his CIA colleague, Dave, were thought to have set off the violence by aggressively interrogating foreign Taliban prisoners and asking, "Why did you come to Afghanistan?". August said their questions were answered by one prisoner jumping forward and announcing, "We?re here to kill you."

The Guardian's Mazar-i-Sharif correspondent said the CIA "operatives had apparently failed on entering the fort to observe the first rule of espionage: keep a low profile."

The Times' August said Spann subsequently pulled his gun and his CIA colleague shot three prisoners dead in cold blood before losing control over the situation.

Spann was then "kicked, beaten and bitten to death" the journalists said, in an account of the ferocity of the violence that lasted four days, leaving more than 500 people dead and the fort littered with "bodies, shrapnel and shell casings".

Meanwhile, graphic reports are appearing of two Pakistani Taliban fighters' final stand in the fort, alongside comments from the Northern Alliance that the dead prisoners were the most hardline of Osama Bin Laden's al-Qaeda recruits.

The revelations, which may be a public relations disaster in the making for the Pakistani establishment, say that the two men, who survived 72 hours of targeted American bombing and missile strikes, were heard speaking Urdu.

Long after hundreds of their comrades were dead, according to one newspaper, the pair, dressed in flimsy salwar-kameezes, remained hidden in a deep basement in the fort and it took several rockets to restore the fort to a "tomb-like silence."

In the aftermath of the bloodbath at Qala-I-Jhangi, the British press has focussed on graphic images, including what they are calling the blatant defiance of the rules of war. One photograph, plastered across several papers, allegedly shows a Northern Alliance fighter using a long metal spike to prise out a dead Taliban soldier's gold tooth. The Independent newspaper sardonically headlined its report, "How our Afghan Allies applied the Geneva Convention" in an indication that the US-led, UK-backed coalition may now be doomed to launch urgent rearguard action to quell public distaste about the conduct of Tony Blair's "just war for a just cause".

Amnesty International has highlighted public concern by demanding an investigation "into the proportionality of the response by the Northern Alliance, US and UK forces".

In a statement released here, it said the enquiry "should make urgent recommendations to ensure that other instances of surrender and holding of prisoners do not lead to similar disorders and loss of life".


http://www.indymedia.org:8081//front.php3?article_id=97551”

“I’m so thankful these dirty little moneys are on our side. It’s good to know that we have hardened patriots that are willing to go that extra step and get the job done that needs done. These men ARE real heroes because they make the ultimate sacrifice, they sacrifice their own humanity in order to serve their country. Your average Joe Shmoe From Kokamo can’t stomach the vile sh!t that’s got to be done in order to find justice.

It’s all relativism really. A butterfly beats it’s wings in the rain forest, a man in Brussels breaks wind, 19 Mullahs crash two jumbo airliners into the WTC, a few terrorist propagators get a 300 gr. lobotomy in northern Afghanistan. It’s all connected man. Is poppin’ a cap in a prisoner’s forehead in the Geneva Convention? Nope. But then again, neither is killing 6,000 innocent people with jetliners. It’s phuckin’ war folks. So go take some Phenergan for the queasiness and be thankful we have nasty little bastards like Mr.Spann to do what we don’t have the balls to do.


Good day! 8)”

“Sick'em, Nige!

War is Hell”

“It's all hearsay, and we'll NEVER know the truth...but it sure does make a good story for journalism, don't it?”

“Mah oh mah, some kinda' one scratch'd it to da paper an' Solitary Hika' cut an' pasted
it so's it gots'ta be da damn straight troof. Da accuracy o' everythin' reported be 100%. It reports "may have provoked ". Dat be pretty accurate. Git some clue S-H an' quit cuttin' an' pastin' speculashun.”

“Solitary Hiker...I KNEW the man, was he capable of killing?...yes...is it likely in cold blood?....no...but I wasn't there so I don't know if he did, but from what I know of John, it took considerably more than a simple feint from a bound prisoner to set him off....the reports I'm privy to say it was the prisoners that started it because the Americans were spotted at the prison, and they refused to surrender to infidels....and even those reports may be biased...the only ones who know what happened are the survivors.....”

“If any one has spent any time in England you know how the English LOVE to American bash. They have a saying OIA Only In America, they havent forgiven us for kicking their butts yet. Who knows if it's true or not but it is war.And it sure does make a good story. If only two people were left alive how do they know how it started? were they standing right there? Who can expect them to say Yeah we figured we kill a few people.”

“This BS story kinda ties into what we're saying on the What has the media done for you thread. This story is complety slanted, third or fourth hand information and is just basically BS. What are you really trying to say, SH? How in the hell could a story get out to the papers if everyone in that room was killed? Oh, someone "overheard" the converstaion. Like these guys are the most reliable source of information. Geeeezzzz, give me a break. You ruin your credibility with crap like this.”

“Luther -
"reports" = "repotes"...
get your ebonics right.”

“"Why did you come to Afghanistan?". August said their questions were answered by one prisoner jumping forward and announcing, "We're here to kill you."

Rule #1 on being a prisoner - Don't make a threatening move towards the guy with the gun.”

“The American CIA agent the press is calling "Dave" made it out alive. He's the one who called in the airstrikes on a Sat phone.

Most likely the poorly informed in the good ole USA will never know what really happened. Not with the lapdog press we have. But if past history is any indication of what is going on today, the CIA is up to no good. Thank Allah the foreign press doesn't grovel at Dubya's feet.”

“SuperTroll,
The prisoners didn't have to surrender to the infedels. They had already surrendered and handed over their weapons to the Northern Alliance. Rememeber ....they were at the fort and had their hands tied behind their backs and everyone was pointing machine guns at them? It was a perfect time for a suprise revolt.”

“S-H, whut makes yo' ass not one o' da damn "po'ly informed"? Becuz yo' ass eyeball different newz rags? Whut makes yo' rags mo' accurate dan da ones da sucka's dat disagree wit' yo' ass eyeball?”

“Well maybe it's because I don't try to affect some stupid hillbilly vocabulary while I'm posting to threads on TT? Or maybe it's just because I read better websites,etc. But then again, maybe it's because IMHO it's safe to assume that just about anything and everthing the Federales tell us is a lie and I've learned to get my news from sources that feel the same way. I like my press to be sceptical of government.”

“Ahhhh.....does that answer your question Luther?”

“So, SH, are you saying that "Dave" is the one who told the story?”

“I checked up on Solitary's reference and it is a useful one.

If the allegations aren't true, the article is still important because UN agencies or officials and human rights groups are calling for an investigation. It is newsworthy. And newspapers in the US are very intimidating by accusations that they are unpatriotic, and they are not printing stuff like this.

It may or may not represent the truth, but it does appear in the "Times of India" which is a pretty anti-Taliban, anti-Al Qeda publication (after all, Al Qeda trained guerilla warriors who have been fighting against India in Kashmir).

It is important to know what the rest of the world is talking about. Do people only want to listen to the Pentagon and White House briefings and ignore other points of view altogether? Is anyone saying that official US briefings are less partisan than the Indian Times?

I don't necessarily believe the allegations that are reported, but by not taking in outside information like this - we are willfully keeping ourselves as ignorant and as ill informed as if we automatically believed it.

Sometimes Sol posts junk, sometimes he posts worthwhile stuff. This was worthwhile.”

“S-H, do yo' ass live in Idaho?

Ped, It has nothin' t' do wit' gittin' mo' 4-1-1 from outside sources. It has t' do wit' it bein' shoved in our face as if we wuz bein' true-like enlightened by one who be all so's knowin' becuz he eyeballs different rags. Woah, Nellie!

I certain-like do agree dair be some slant t' da damn briefings from our federal. I also think da so's called outside bull#&%!$ has some slant t'it an' neitha' yo' ass o' I complete-like dig dat
slant.”

“Let's say for the sake of argument, the story that SH posted is true. As it was brought up another thread, we have not formally declared war, but we are in a state of war. It was mentioned that illegal prisoners taken are not covered by the Geneva Convention. Would this cover this action? Could we just go in and tiee'm up and shoot'em and not face war crimes? One of the problems that I have with this story is that SH is accusing th US of war crimes. Pretty serious thing to just throw around. If it was proven that this country is commiting war crimes, yes, I'd be PO'd. I just can't buy into that just yet. I don't doubt that we have done shaky things in the past and possibly now, but I need more than an over heard converstion to get me going. All I say is concider that source that this info came from. Anyone can go to worldnetdaily and find different info, or delayed info, from what we are getting. I don't doubt that the government make be "squeezing" the info to the people. I would bet that if everyone knew exactly what was going on daily in WWII, the American public would've felt differently about the war, no matter how just it was. Maybe even opposed it.”

“If nothing else, the circumstances are troubling. US officials had expressed concern about what to do with foriegn fighters and some dead had their hands tied behind their backs. An inquiry is justified. I hope our hands are clean.

SH - I think being distrustful of the government is certainly healthy and wise but to assume everything they say is a lie and just about anything critical of them is the truth seems a little warped.”

“yep, what violin said!”

“Since when have Afghani's ever been constrained by the Geneva Convention?

When in Rome.......”

“GS, two wrong's don't make a right. The United States of America has signed the Articles of the Geneva Convention and therefore we are obligated to follow the same.”

“Of course we must also turn this around and examine what kind of treatment the Tali’s would be doling out to prisoners of the NA. Do you think they have a convention they follow? Hell, no. I don’t think the debate should be weather it happened or not because it probably did. The US can say we are above all that type of barbarism all it wants but we are just as capable of spreading terror as they are. And rightly so as they are the ones who have set the tone for the conflict. If enemies of the US want to act a certain way and drag our boys around jeeps through the streets and lynch them (as in Somalia), fine, but don’t cry to the UN when we reply in kind.

What I find even more disturbing is that a middle of the road extremist wingnut from South Carolina cares more about having something to point at the government about that he cares about the Tali’s who were murdered in cold blood (albeit justifiable). Just try and deny it.

Hey, TGIF fellas!!”

“Those of us who share in what the majority of people (i.e. Society) insist is "reality" are "sane" and those of us who either purposefully or naturally deny that reality are "insane". Therefore, insanity is either a natural misunderstanding of what the herd believes or an intentional rejection of most of those beliefs.”

“Luther: Yes.

Solitary does have this attitude, like we are all whiney kids who would rather eat Official Gov't Junk food as opposed to the good healthy Broccoli he tries to shove down our throat (Castin dem Pearls afore us swine). That does piss me off, and what adds injury to insult is that some of what he posts is obvious BS. Its bad enough that he swallows that sheeyat, its even worse when he comes to the TT nest demanding that us Baby birds open wide while he regurgitates it. But at least he is swallowin' and regurgitating a different brand of sheeyat than most of the rest of the people here.

I think we gotta listen carefully and work hard to sort through the stuff everyone is trying to feed us.”

“We have tried fighting a war with rules which only one side would follow (our side) and we lost. Nothing wrong with playing by the same rules.

Spooks can play by any rules they want just as long as they don't get caught.”

“Wow, well said Ped. I have hiked with SH and enjoyed his company very much. I don't know who this new boogerhead using his handle is though. 8)

SH = troll”

“he he he he... I have joined the ranks of people who have been counterfeit trolled!

Nigal: If you were agreeing with the post at 1:49, it wasn't me. It was "pedxinq." With the underlining, the only way I can tell "q" from "g" is to either left click on the user name to see how it is spelled in "user information" or to right click and look at the "properties."

Not bad words being put in my mouth this time. I wonder what else "pedxinq" has posted???”

“I was wondering when you would catch on. Did you see the "Cold-weather Camping" thread?”

“Remember the (Melay?) massacre in Viet Nam? It took a while, but the truth came out, and those responsible were dealt with.

You guys are mountain climbing over mole hills. Chill - the truth will surface soon enough.

IM(totally isolated from the theater of war)O,
the prisoners were prolly massacred by the VERY PISSED AT THE TALIBAN NA soldiers...
After all they've been subjected to by these jack-booted thugs - who could blame them?


Sick'em, George!”

“Pedxing,
Excuse me sir, but I never post bull$hit. Just because most of the ignorati at TT don't like it or don't believe it doesn't make it bull$hit or untrue.

I stand by my original opinion that this sad affair has really nothing to do with Osama bin Laden and everything to do with the control of oil in Central Asia. OBL was a convenient excuse. I would venture that the US government really doesn't even want to find OBL. They need him on the loose so they can continue to wage war infinitum.

Read through the posts on this thread (or any of the other related threads). Almost makes you sick to see what some of these people think is acceptable in war. To hear the flippancy in which one makes a statement like Nigal's is simply amazing. Let me quote him from today.

"I’m so thankful these dirty little mon[k]eys are on our side. It’s good to know that we have hardened patriots that are willing to go that extra step and get the job done that needs done. These men ARE real heroes because they make the ultimate sacrifice, they sacrifice their own humanity in order to serve their country. Your average Joe Shmoe From Kokamo can’t stomach the vile sh!t that’s got to be done in order to find justice."

About on the level of the "Gimme" post.

Surely there are some dark days ahead for the "Republic" if this sort of logic prevails.”

“SH-
Don't you see that you are suffering from "confirmation bias"?

You look for NOTHING other than that which you can twist into a shape that suits your notions.”

“Quote by SH
"I would venture that the US government really doesn't even want to find OBL."

SH, tell me, do you honestly believe that?”

“I found confirmation on the www! It MUST be true!”

“Chilli36,
Sure I think it's in the realm of possibility. It's certainly more believable that the idea that killing him is going to stop terrorism. Our government's idiotic actions are spawning 10,000 Osama bin Ladins.

Violin,
An interesting senario. Maybe I'll start selling dollars and buying some rubles to go along with my Confederate money. But first do you think I should go dust off my marble bust of Lenin? Da? Nyet?”

“LOL! Violin that is a thought provoking article.

Solitary Hiker: In my evaluation, the idea that the war effort has nothing to do with Osama is every bit as much BS as the idea that the terrorists were only attacking us because they hate our way of life.

Furthermore, some of the links you have posted were not credible to me at all. This one was.

As an addendum, I understand the US has rejected the notion of having any investigation at all. It also strikes me as just as awfully convenient that while we fretting about the dilemma of how to deal with all these guys that - after they are taken prisoner - they should force the US and NA to kill every last one of them. It could have happened the way the military briefers say, it could have happened according to the allegations reported in your link... it could have happened some other way (for example, their might have been a staged pretext for liquidating dangerous prisoners). I don't know.”

“I fully agree with Nigal's original post.
We have been attacked and I feel that the best way to fight back is to fight as dirty as possible. Without people like that, I don't think we would be near as powerful as we are today. I just don't think that #&%!$footing around with the Taliban or anyone else will accomplish anything.
If these guy's brutality saved somone you loved, I bet you'd quit #&%!$ing.”

“I think I now know why Solitary Hiker is solitary....”

“"Our governments idiotic actions are spawning 10,000 Osama bin Ladins."
~SH

Then 10,000 more will die.
Don't you get it, dude?
George is on a mission - and he WILL NOT fail.

Where ya been?”

“"Surely there are some dark days ahead for the "Republic" if this sort of logic prevails."

It’s about time the creaky windmills of your mind picked up on the fact I was trolling you right back. LOL! I do basically believe what I wrote but I was just tryin’ to go over the top with it. Kinda scary it went through without a squeak.

You don’t post bullsh!t? Hmmm, if it looks like bullsh!t, it smells like bullsh!t, and it tastes like bullsh!t (gojo told me so, heehee) it must be bullsh!t. Ignorantia? Face it friend, you post your bullsh!t for no other reason than you crave attention. If you cared for nothing but informing others you would be posting on other subjects besides anti-gov subjects. You have a hotbotton topic and a hotbotten way of conveying them (cut and paste herd mentality). You are very transparent.”

“wanderer,
Considering the sinking level of intelligence shown in the comments of the majority of my detractors, who would want to hike with them anyway?

gojo,
Let's see ...Kill 1 OBL, spawn 10,000, kill 10,000 OBLs, spawn 100,000,000. Can we spell
E X P O D E N T I A L growth? Do you remember that from algebra class or did you get that far?
Yeah George is on a "mission" alright. A mission to be a one term president just like his daddy.
Do you get that Dude!”

“Great redirection SH. LOL!”

“LOL Nigal! I'm glad you posted it. You may not believe what you wrote, but it brought out the cockroaches hiding in the woodwork who do believe it. I will say that many a man has spoken his true thoughts in jest. Therefore take care in what you say.

Now as far as why I'm posting this material? "To crave attention?" Well.....maybe. The material is certainly generating attention. And I definitely want that because I want the people here to understand what most of people outside (and many inside) the USA think of us and our foreign policies. If you believe anything I post believe that in this world perception is much more important than reality. A growing majority in the world perceive us as the bad guys. History has shown that in many cases we are.

Now the real question is whether or not my posts are attracting too much of YOUR attention? If so I suggest that you not read my threads. If you do still find it necessary to read them then I suggest you not post to them. That goes for everyone else reading this too. That way you won't get your panties all in a wad and y'all can go back to grazing in peace.”

““Now the real question is whether or not my posts are attracting too much of YOUR attention?”

Naw, it only takes a few minutes of my time to skim this stuff and shoot in a few thoughts.

“If you do still find it necessary to read them then I suggest you not post to them.”

LOL! WTF? So what you are saying is “It’s my right to post anything I want. If you want to read it, fine. But don’t comment on it.” This is the bullcrap that is right up your extremist alley. “Just shut up and be fed!”, would have been a bit clearer. The same rights that give you the freedom to come here and call us blind sheep also gives me the right to come right along behind you and call you a rightwingnut.

If you are going to partake in unpopular speech don’t whine about being unpopular.”

“You hit just right, Nigal. SH wants us to obey and not voice any oppostion. His views are the only ones correct. Sounds like the tactic that he accuses the government of doing. Your right and everyone else is wrong, right?”

“solitary, when you go to spell something for effect, make sure you have the correct word.

exponential

I learned that in Algebra class”

“How do y'all feel about the following statements?

"My country, right or wrong"

"Might makes right"

"Ends justify the means"

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend"

Personally, I am uncomfortable with all those statements and I think they have all gotten humans into trouble in the past.”

“the only thing that has made me uncomfortable is "Can we spell
E X P O D E N T I A L growth?"”

“I vowed not to post on any more of these cursed cut/paste,drivel threads, BUT I am bored so what the heck.

Did an American acting as a US Gov. employee kill an unarmed/bound prisoner? ALLEGEDLY.There is conflicting info regarding this notion.

We know that some Talibahn still had weapons (attested to by the guy who blew himself up with a grenade killing 5 others). Perhaps the shooting was done by a fellow Tahli who wanted to get it on.

Lets just say that the CIA guy did it. He is now dead so he got his judgement. Was it wrong? Yes. Should he have done it? Yes, under appropriatte circumstances (a debatable term). In EXTREME cases (this included) I would say that this type of brutallity is a necessary evil. If I were in a position to save fellow soldiers lives I would do the same. The lives of my comrades are more important to me than the enemies. If this werent the case I wouldnt be a soldier in a war killing the people who are trying to kill my friends. War is a d@mned ugly beast. Soldiers do things that they must bear for the remainder of THEIR lives. I would rather have people like this CIA agent on my side than have people like SH.”