NO WOMEN!

“My first husband was in the army. Yes, he does.”

“At least young military men, anyway.”

“This is what I think if they want to fight they should be allowed to.They can shoot a gun just like a man..They can kill just like a man....So thats what I think...:)”

“Gordon, perhaps I should have added a "tic" (tounge in cheek) for you.”

“Why do guys race cars?
Why do guys build giant companies?
Why do guys crush beer cans on their heads?
Why do guys workout?
Why do guys smoke and drink?
Why do guys NOT smoke and drink?
Why do guys join the Peace Corps?
Why do guys join the Army?
Why do guys go to college?
Why do guys buy trendy clothes?
Why do guys bathe?
Why do guys floss?

TO GET WOMEN!

As a whole put 10 men together without any women. In two wks it will be chaos! Men dont seek women solely for sex. Its also to replace their mom's. Deny it if you want but its true.Some men may try to act like they are different but I will stand by this statement " we find these truths to be self-evident".”

“Oh yeah Gordo, if you think I SOUND like a wreck. You outta SEE me sometime...”

“Birch, why do all living beings(mammals, reptiles, insects, birds) preen & show off? To attract the opposite sex, of course!

I'm not disagreeing with you that men & women are naturally attracted to each other... that's a primal instinct that is supposed to guarantee the continuity of the human race.

What I AM disagreeing with is the ideology that women shouldn't be in the military along with men because we're... 1.the 'weaker' sex 2.'caregivers' of the family unit 3.a large part of procreation 4.need to be protected.

If women want to go out & join the Marines/Air Force/Army/Engineers or whatever, why shouldn't they?? If they can meet the same standards for physical fitness as the men do(NOT what the bigwigs say the 'standards' should be for women), why shouldn't they be allowed to carry a C7 or M16 or a Carl G or whatever they want to do?

What really irks me is that you quote stats from the carriers and say how co-ed crews are a bad thing because of the drastic rise in pregnancy... how many people live on a carrier? 5 or 6,000? Kind of like a small town, huh?

Imagine moving to a town where there had been no men for 50 years and then all of a sudden they started moving in... there'd be a population boom, wouldn't there? It's a natural part of life... and while I agree that sex has no right to be at the workplace, you're making excuses for the men by saying you're all dogs & think about sex all the time. How 'bout let's all grow up and take some responsibility for our actions? Woman are just as much part of the equation as the men are... after all, it *does* take two...

It's great to use those stats as reasons why women shouldn't work alongside men, but if pregnancy and intmate relationships are your main concern(because as you imply, men can't help themselves), then why not do something to help change things instead of complaining? Just because it's *been* that way in the past, does that mean things have to *stay* that way???”

“Medic girl,

"If they can meet the same standards for physical fitness as the men do"

Women ARENT required to meet the same standards.

"What really irks me is that you quote stats from the carriers and say how co-ed crews are a bad thing because of the drastic rise in pregnancy"

We are talking about a group of people whose purpose at sea is national defense,not baby making.

"... and while I agree that sex has no right to be at the workplace, you're making excuses for the men by saying you're all dogs & think about sex all the time. How 'bout let's all grow up and take some responsibility for our actions? Woman are just as much part of the equation as the men are... after all, it *does* take two... "

The miliatry is NOT any old workplace. I am NOT making excuses or condoning behavior. I am merely observing the way things are. BTW your last sentence "after all, it *does* take two... " is exactly my point. Since it does take two keep em seperate.

"It's great to use those stats as reasons why women shouldn't work alongside men, but if pregnancy and intmate relationships are your main concern(because as you imply, men can't help themselves), then why not do something to help change things instead of complaining? Just because it's *been* that way in the past, does that mean things have to *stay* that way???""

You are approaching this from the wrong angle. I am not saying that women should be excluded from working by men. I am saying that women AND men should BOTH be excluded from working side by side in combat/combat arms units. Pregnancy and relationships are NOT my primary concern. My concern is defense readiness and combat effectiveness which ARE affected by having mixed gender units.The military is NOT the place for social engineering, its a place to train killers. Nothing else.

I am not complaining. I am using factual examples to support my opinion.

The Military isnt a democracy, its a dictatorship.It is there to protect freedom NOT practice it!”

“The same arguments were used to exclude blacks from the military.

Every one of those arguments was also used previously to exclude women from law enforcement, firefighting, and the construction trades. When women entered those ranks all the predicted problems did not appear. Women performed those physically demanding and dangerous jobs alongside men and performed admirably. The 'weaker sex' and 'men will have to protect them' argument is bogus and you know it. Every unit is comprised of persons with different strengths and weaknesses. Watch captains, fire captains, and job foremen all take everyone's capabilities into consideration and plan accordingly. This is good leadership and is practiced in the private sector on a daily basis. Are you saying military commanders are less capable than their civilian counterparts?”

“"When women entered those ranks all the predicted problems did not appear"

Gordon, the problems HAS occured (my example of the USS Teddy Roosevelt Aircraft Carrier)in the military (which happens to be the subject of debate, not civilian employment).

There is a fundamental difference between the military and civilian jobs. Primarily, they are SEPERATE WORLDS entirely.

People tried to exclude blacks due to pregnancy and distraction due to sexual attraction? WOW thats news!

I am not saying women need to be protected by men, geeze I thought that horse was beaten to a pulp few threads ago. I am saying for the umpteenth time than MEN and WOMEN should not serve in the same COMBAT/COMBAT ARMS (infantry/artillery) platoon/squad. Let women fight, I dont care.

"Are you saying military commanders are less capable than their civilian counterparts?"

No! I am saying that commanders have enough responsiblities already trying to train effective soldiers. They dont need to be worrying about soldiers competing with one another (wether man or woman)for the affections or attention of another (again man or woman). Please dont be so naive as to say that men and women dont do this.

For those in doubt about military living quarters. 4 people in a 360 sqft room. Regulations allow for 90sqft per soldier (thats 9x10) personal space. The comrades you will fight and die for are your roommates. Building the bonds of trust and loyalty occur through the constant presence of your squad members (roommates). I can still tell you family info about roommates I havent talked to in 8 yrs. I remember home towns and favorite foods and music.

During training in cold climates it was common practice to huddle up ( I mean d@mn close) to your squad members for warmth. It is likely that if it is a mixed gender squad there will be an individual who is VERY uncomfortable or is TOO comfortable with this. Both scenarios are bad.

Please step away from the feminist ideology about this. Look at what has happened (in the military).

BTW womens physical standards are different (lower) than a mans in firefighting,police and game warden training and testing, at least in Mi.”

“Birch, what I was trying to say about the whole physical standards testing is that it SHOULD be the same for men and women...

In singles quarters on bases in Canada(unless you're on exercise & sleeping in 'H' huts) it's one/sometimes two people to a room, not four. Nobody's saying you have to sleep in the same room as your fire team partner if she's female...”

“Too bad about Michigan. Most everywhere else standards are the same.

According to the Navy there was a surge in pregnancies, STD's, etc, on ships when they were first integrated. The latest figures indicate the pregnancy rate, occurrence of STD, and personnel problems from inappropriate contact is now LESS than a similar population in the civilian world or shore-based units.

I am sorry you have such a low opinion of military commanders. Do you have any substantiation to your assertion they cannot juggle all the responsibilities of command and leadership in a mixed gender group?”

“Gordon, Infantry commanders dont want this. They have made their case to the Dept of Defense/Dept of the Army and were convincing enough that the issue was dropped (again we are talking Infantry units).

Regarding police and firefighter training. Most states have a sliding scale for candidates. I have taken the MLEOTC (michigan law enforcemnet training council) physical fitness test twice. The standards are quite different for men and women. As are the standards a firefighter candidate must meet. The Michigan State Police "boot camp" has been recognized countless times as 3rd best program in the nation. The MSP has a gender specific scale.

Perhaps I have been unclear. I dont think women are lower than men. I do however recognize that women and men ARE different,physiologically,biologically and mentally and emotionally. I DO NOT nor have I ever thought women are "less" than men. My point of contention is ONLY with mixed gender Infantry/Combat arms units. Nothing else. And my qualms about mixed units arent because of women. The problem I have is mixing MEN and women in that situation.


By the way, my wifes good friend is an Army Combat engineer. She is an Officer. While in Bosnia she had to billet with men. It was horrid to hear what she put up with, horrid.”

“BTW I am NOT trying to convince you Gordon or Medic that you are wrong, or that I am right. I am stating my case and supporting it with facts and experience as much as possible.”

“Where the heck are all the TT women today?
Mostly us men today.”

“It's their secret monthly meeting.”

“Dangerously close to innuendo there...”

“In the ladies room...”

“geee, I didn't think of that....”

“chased them all away, didn't ya??”

“How are things in the Powder Room?”

“pretty dusty right now!”

“LOL...

Try these:




(they kick all forms of dust)”

“Good one bitpusher...Big Matt is watching, and his finger is on the trigger.”

“Have you looked at the prices of those swiffer dusters and floor cleaners, and the replacement sheets? You might as well hire a cleaning service for what that stuff costs. I think they are neat but seems very trash creating as well as budget breaking.”