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ViOLIn
9:55:33 AM
12/17/01

Yeah, Buchanan does have it right about the NAFTA and WTO nonsense, but the guy is NOT QUITE RIGHT in the head........loonie tunes.
Tom Terrific
11:28:32 AM
12/17/01

Hmmmm?
The timing was suspicious?
When would have been a better time to find a video tape of Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan - the Korean War?

Just as Pat Buchannan begins to start making a little sense, something totally rediculous falls out ofhis mouth. I put he and Louie Farrakan in the same column in that regard. They're wacko!


You boys never give it a rest, ay? Feel the burn... squirm!
hehehee!

Sick'em George!
gojo
2:40:01 PM
12/17/01

Tom,
Please explain your comment. Just how is it that Pat Buchanan is "not quite right in the head"?
Please elaborate as so I can at least try to understand your reasoning. Otherwise I'll just fluff you off like I do the rest of the ignorati on TT.

Violin,
Give up man, you'll never be in the game. This thread is for TTers who like "meat and potatoes" arguments. Go do the wanker HTML stuff and poetry on someone's powerpuff thread.
solitary hiker
2:41:53 PM
12/17/01

This thread is for TTers who like "meat and potatoes" arguments.

solitary hiker
02:41:53 PM
12/17/01

I am probably as "liberal" as anyone on this site. However, I have concluded (over the years) that facts are more powerful than concepts. Solitary, I hate to bring the bad news,,,,but my 7 year old daughter brings more "meat and potatoes" argument to the table than I have seen in some of these posts.
chili36
2:47:22 PM
12/17/01

I guess Buchanan’s racist, sexist, xenophobic, homophobic, anti-Semitic and anti-democratic rhetorical outbursts resonate with right-wing fringe political types and militia groups but they strike me as the ravings of a lunatic. I’m not surprised that you are an admirer, solitary hiker.
Violin
3:46:53 PM
12/17/01

SH, a few years back you and I would have gotten along VERY well. I was then (as I am now very suspicious) of our government and its policies. However after years of reading publications (John Birch stuff, American Survival guide and similar stuff) plus hours a day listening to Detroits former anti-gov/ conspiracy radio guru. I was hooked. However I have distanced myself from most of that. I realized one day that " hey wait a minute, this stuff never happens". The police arent knocking down doors to collect guns,All hell didnt occur at Y2K etc... Then I saw those who were spokes men for "us". The nut from the Montana Militia dressed in fatigues at congressional hearings talking about the UN controlling the weather!?!? C'mon man. That is just embarassing!

How is it that folks who arent in line with you are sheep? Name calling and calling folks ignorant for disagreeing with you seems contrary to what you claim to represent. You say you want people to wake up and not buy into propaganda (my words interpreted from yours) yet in reality you want folks to think like you.

You have presented you case, not as a counterpoint but as the truth. Somewhere in the murky middle lies the truth and time will tell with the help of the freedom of information act.
Birch
4:08:28 PM
12/17/01

chili36,
I wholeheartedly agree. The rest of the people in here are just repeating the soud bites they heard on TV or something their friends said. None of them ever really take you on point by point.

You take Violin in his last post. He posted some lame-ass poetry and I ragged him a little bit. Did he come back with anything of substance? Did he site his sources for any of the names he called Pat Buchanan? No, he just repeated all the names he'd heard some idiot pundit use on a TV show he was watching.

I would ask why he called Buchanan a racist? Site the sources you used to form that opinion Violin.

I would ask why he called Pat Buchanan an anti-Semite? Site your source Violin.

Xonophobic is another one. Where's the source material?

Violin I would venture that you have no sources. You're just following the herd. I'll tell you what I'll do. You pick the Buchanan name you like best and I'll argue just the opposite. I'll bring my documentation to the table. I hope you have some but I'll wager you don't. Let's do NAFTA or the anti-Semite thing? Name your Buchanan subject and be prepared to defend your position.

But you know what I'm betting?... You'll just do some of your "clever" HTML magic to satisfy the patriots. They'll all be happy and none the wiser.
solitary hiker
5:32:59 PM
12/17/01

Just for the record, Buchanan suggested that "quasi-dictatorial rule" might be the solution to the problems of big municipalities and the federal fiscal crisis. "If the people are corrupt, the more democracy, the worse the government."

He has also praised Gen. Pinochet and Franco.

I think it's funny that a self described true Amerikan patriot would like the guy.
Violin
5:34:51 PM
12/17/01

SH, a few years back you and I would have gotten along VERY well. I was then (as I am now very suspicious) of our government and its policies. However after years of reading publications (John Birch stuff, American Survival guide and similar stuff) plus hours a day listening to Detroits former anti-gov/ conspiracy radio guru. I was hooked. However I have distanced myself from most of that. I realized one day that " hey wait a minute, this stuff never happens". The police arent knocking down doors to collect guns,All hell didnt occur at Y2K etc... Then I saw those who were spokes men for "us". The nut from the Montana Militia dressed in fatigues at congressional hearings talking about the UN controlling the weather!?!? C'mon man. That is just embarassing!

How is it that folks who arent in line with you are sheep? Name calling and calling folks ignorant for disagreeing with you seems contrary to what you claim to represent. You say you want people to wake up and not buy into propaganda (my words interpreted from yours) yet in reality you want folks to think like you.

You have presented you case, not as a counterpoint but as the truth. Somewhere in the murky middle lies the truth and time will tell with the help of the freedom of information act."

maybe you'll see it this time.
Birch
5:40:46 PM
12/17/01

Oh, the source for the first one is a 1991 Wahington Post column.

The lame ass poetry was a song dude. Ever mellow out and listen to music (Der Angriff doesn't count)?
Violin
5:42:06 PM
12/17/01

"The rest of the people in here are just repeating the soud bites they heard on TV or something their friends said."

is this supposed to be insulting to anyone else BESIDES mr cut-n-paste?
radagast
5:46:42 PM
12/17/01

SH, here are just a few Pat quotes WITH SOUCRES FOR YA! BTW these are from the www.fair.org website.ENJOY IT!!!!!!!!

Buchanan, who opposed virtually every civil rights law and court decision of the last 30 years, published FBI smears of Martin Luther King Jr. as his own editorials in the St. Louis Globe Democrat in the mid-1960s. "We were among Hoover's conduits to the American people," he boasted (Right from the Beginning, p. 283).

In a column sympathetic to ex-Klansman David Duke, Buchanan chided the Republican Party for overreacting to Duke and his Nazi "costume": "Take a hard look at Duke's portfolio of winning issues and expropriate those not in conflict with GOP principles, [such as] reverse discrimination against white folks." (syndicated column, 2/25/89)

Trying to justify apartheid in South Africa, he denounced the notion that "white rule of a black majority is inherently wrong. Where did we get that idea? The Founding Fathers did not believe this." (syndicated column, 2/7/90) He referred admiringly to the apartheid regime as the "Boer Republic": "Why are Americans collaborating in a U.N. conspiracy to ruin her with sanctions?" (syndicated column, 9/17/89)

In a September 1993 speech to the Christian Coalition, Buchanan described multiculturalism as "an across-the-board assault on our Anglo-American heritage."

If we had to take a million immigrants in, say Zulus, next year, or Englishmen, and put them up in Virginia, what group would be easier to assimilate and would cause less problems for the people of Virginia?" ("This Week With David Brinkley," 1/8/91)

Writing of "group fantasies of martyrdom," Buchanan challenged the historical record that thousands of Jews were gassed to death by diesel exhaust at Treblinka: "Diesel engines do not emit enough carbon monoxide to kill anybody." (New Republic, 10/22/90) Buchanan's columns have run in the Liberty Lobby's Spotlight, the German-American National PAC newsletter and other publications that claim Nazi death camps are a Zionist concoction.

Buchanan called for closing the U.S. Justice Department's Office of Special Investigations, which prosecuted Nazi war criminals, because it was "running down 70-year-old camp guards." (New York Times, 4/21/87)

The Buchanan '96 campaign's World Wide Web site included an article blaming the death of White House aide Vincent Foster on the Israeli intelligence agency, Mossad -- and alleging that Foster and Hillary Clinton were Mossad spies. (The campaign removed the article after its existence was reported by a Jewish on-line news service; Jewish Telegraphic Agency, 2/21/96.)
Birch
5:59:02 PM
12/17/01

WOW Cut and paste is fun.HEHEHE
Birch
6:01:31 PM
12/17/01

Birch,
I am neither a John Bircher, militia man, conspiracy theorist. Weatherman, Red Brigade, or anything thing else extreme right or extreme left. I don't know which way the wind blows and I really don't care who controls it.

I will tell you I have reasons to be an isolationist in the same way that a lot of Americans were America Firsters after WWI and right up to the start of WWII.
Two hundred years ago George Washington and Thomas Jefferson warned us of the dangers of foreign entanglements. It was good advice then and good advice now.
Don't hand me this crap about the US being the world's only superpower and we have to do this stuff. We don't. And I would put forth that the more we do, the more we get sucked in. The more we get sucked in, the more people hate us. We need to mind our own business and fix what needs fixing here at home. And believe me, there is plenty to fix right here in the good ole U.S of A. For starters, how about an energy policy that would make us almost independent of the problems of the Middle East? It's been almost 30 years since the first so-called oil embargo. Isn't it time we figured out what we were going to do when the oil well finally does go dry?


NAFTA, The World Trade Organization, and the IMF are doing real harm to people in this country and all over the world. In the state I live in we have lost no less than 20,000 textile jobs in the last year because of NAFTA, the WTO (i.e. trade agreements with Communist China, etc.) When the United States Army wanted to buy each of it's "soldiers of one" a new black beret did you know they wanted to buy them from the ChiComs? They couldn't find anyone in the States that could fill an order that large and that fast. No one big enough was left in the industry.

If you think the wealth of a country is generated in the service industries you need to go back and study Econ 101. The wealth of a nation is created when the citizens of that country make something and then sell it overseas. This country has been running trade deficits for so long our currancy is near worthless compared to what it was worth 30 years ago. That's why pickup trucks cost $35K and foreign firms are buying American companies out left and right. Examples: British Petroleum bought Amoco; Diamler-Chrysler.

If nothing else this country needs to be able to supply itself with the fuel, machine tools, shoes, clothing, aircraft, weapons, etc. necessary to engage itself in the kind of "spreading of democracy" military actions we're so good at (and the super patriots go all a-ga-ga over.) In some areas the government should protect critical jobs and industries. Is this government doing anything like that? Hardly; the Congress, plied with lobbyist money supplied by the rich oligarchy that really run this land are selling the average citizen out. Maybe you're protected if you work in the service industry filling burgers but there are still some of out here that actually manufacture products that we can export. I for one would like to help the American trade balance. Now don't get me wrong, the less government the better. But my God man, if we're going to have government meddling in things, at least have them meddling in stuff that helps us.

That leads me to ask you why is Buchanan such a xenophobic idiot for wanting to protect American jobs? What is wrong with wanting a equitable policy to both Israelis and Palistinians? What is wrong with thinking that the best way to go after OBL was with a lot of reward money instead of 5 million dollar cruise missles and B-52s at 40,000 ft.? You can make more friends with baksheesh than you can with bombs.
solitary hiker
6:31:35 PM
12/17/01

Am I for energy independence? Yes
Am I for slowing immigration or stopping it? Yes
Am I anti-Nafta,GATT,WTO IMF? Yes
Did I vote for Pat in the primaries in 96? Yes
Do I think service-industries generate wealth? No
Have I said that the US is the only superpower? No,but I will say it now. "we are the only super-power"
There IS a $25million dollar bounty on OBL,LOTS OF BAKSHEESH!

I hope you like that Pat quotes you were asking for. There were more but I just got some of the Jewels.

I agree with you more than I disagree with you, PROBABLY. Its just that your approach is frickin irritating,annoying and getting pretty lame.
Birch
6:40:14 PM
12/17/01

Birch,
I'll address your points one by one. First I'm going over to the website you noted and read all the "facts'.

Basically your source is declaring Buchanan guilty by association or that he is a bad person because he felt or said something wrong headed thirty years ago. Isn't it great that hindsight is so damn clear when you look back and judge.

Still I'll address your points. At least you took the time and go out and find some dirt on the man.
solitary hiker
6:49:00 PM
12/17/01

SH, I kinda like Pat. I dont really like the source I got his quotes from, plus we dont know the context. I merely did this as an illustration that one can get "quotes" and " sources" about anything regardless of validity or truth or context. And I did it because you asked for "proof" that Pat is a bad boy. You asked Violin about this, I just jumped in. BTW dont bother to pick apart Pats statements on my account. I personnally dont much care. I was just making a point.
Birch
6:54:14 PM
12/17/01

here is the full url...http://www.fair.org/current/buchanan-bigot.html
Birch
6:55:16 PM
12/17/01

And I really didn't see any Buchanan quotes. Saying something and people saying you said something are two different things.
solitary hiker
6:55:26 PM
12/17/01

is pat bad
Birch
6:57:20 PM
12/17/01

I'm wrong, you did quote him at least twice.
solitary hiker
6:58:41 PM
12/17/01

Cool the link worked.

I do like the way you say "Saying something and people saying you said something are two different things." Very nice way to totally disregard stuff you dont agree with.
Birch
6:59:07 PM
12/17/01

SH you may want to recount or take off your shoes so you can use your toes too. there were 7 sets of quotes arounds stuff pat said. Boy you are REALLY duckin the subject. Ever heard of a "lateral arabesque" I believe its a dance move, its often used to describe what a quarterback does to avoid being tackled,or what you are doing to dodge the fact that you are pigeonholed.
Birch
7:03:05 PM
12/17/01

There are 35 or so Pat quotes on the link I posted. You may have to count all of your fingers and toes more than once to get such a big number. You may struggle when you get to the teens, they can be tricky, but dont lose faith lil' trooper, you'll do fine just be patient and start over if you must. Counting is hard work!
Birch
7:12:10 PM
12/17/01

This video had me steamed for hours after I saw/read it. But as I mauled it over in my mind I came to the realization that there is not a single reality and if there is, if anyone really knew it it’d probably drive them insane. I thought about the words that OBL and Co. spoke and I came to realize that these guys believe every single word they were speaking. They had no doubt that what they believe is true and right. In the end it kind of calmed me to know this.
nigal
7:22:01 PM
12/17/01

pass the joint, nige.
radagast
7:45:09 PM
12/17/01

"I came to realize that these guys believe every single word they were speaking. They had no doubt that what they believe is true and right." Thats what freak me out.
Birch
8:02:46 PM
12/17/01

Buchanan fell on his own sword years ago and is marginalized politically. It is really a waste of time arguing about him - he doesn't much matter.

Back to the original point, the video is almost certainly authentic. Why would the government fake it at this point? The war is nearly over. Support at home is nearly unanimous and many of our critics overseas have been silent or have even begun to praise the liberation of the Afghan people from a despotic, foreign regime. If they got caught passing off a fake now, even the most ardent supporters would be calling for heads.

The video is criticized as being of poor quality, too convenient and that this brilliant strategist would never allow such a video to be made and fall into enemy hands. Helloooo! This is the guy who came up with the brilliant idea of attacking the strongest power in the history of the world and then going and hiding in a cave. So he allowed some flunky to hastily tape a meeting over his home video of a helicopter crash site and leave the tape in a soon to be overrun safe house. It only shows how poor his judgment is – that’s already been established.

The conversation is a scary peek into the minds of people who feel God wants you and I dead. Take it for what it is and stop with your wild, paranoid theories.
Violin
9:07:51 AM
12/18/01

I believe the biggest evidence the tape is real is the fact that we don’t NEED this tape. There is enough evidence already to go after OBL. Every single one of the hijackers is traced back to the Al Quida network. Do you think we actually need something like this to keep support up at home? Hell every single time I see those two huge buildings coming down it reinforces our purpose. I don’t need a tape to know that what we are doing is the right thing to do.
nigal
9:29:04 AM
12/18/01

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CIA's Funniest Home Video?

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CIA's Funniest Home Video?
From Brasscheck
ken@brasscheck.com
12-14-1

If you have RealAudio, you can listen to some analyses of the preposterous Osama bin Laden "confession" video.

You might detect desperation in the voices of the BBC interviewers as they seek to dispel doubt about the video's authenticity. I did.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1710000/audio/_1710143_tape08_gul.ram

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1710000/audio/_1710143_tape08_gibbons.ram

The video itself is here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1705000/video/

Problems with the tape:

- Its poor audio quality (so poor many native Arabic speakers claim not to be able to make it out) - The English language subtitles the US government insisted putting on it before releasing it

Then there are some other practical concerns:

- Why would someone who has managed to so skillfully elude the US for years and years suddenly become so sloppy about his security to the point that he would permit a video of a confession to serious crime be made and then duplicated?

(It's especially strange since the only time bin Laden has been credibly quoted on the subject of 9-11, he categorically denied involvement in it.)

- The conversation is strangely stilted. It's almost as if it were conducted with the purpose in mind of checking off a check list of topics that support various cover stories that have been floated to explain the unexplainable. "Hijackers in the dark as to their real mission" - check, "Jet fuel expected to burn hot and cause structural damage" - check. (Too bad Osama didn't explain how he managed to get the US air defense to stand down that day. Now THAT would have been interesting.)

- When would bin Laden and his buddies have had the time or peace of mind to loll about at a relaxed dinner party between September 11 and now? (When do they say this thing was shot anyway?)

- The appearance of this video in an abandoned house just as the war appears to the in the mop up stage is hugely convenient and therefore suspicious on the face of it

- Why can't bin Laden's personal videographer afford a better video camera? There's no reason for the quality of the audio to be so unclear. There's no interfering noise and the distance between the cameraman and the speakers does not appear to be large. If the point was to capture the statement of responsibility in order to rally the troops with a mass duplicated video why not shoot it properly? Surely bin Laden has the money for a proper camcorder and thanks to a special CIA media project from the 1980s, there are plenty of old Mujahedin around who know the ins and outs of shooting battlefield video.

The BBC article: "Arabs split on Bin Laden tape" if read with any degree of care will reveal that the only evidence that the tape and its translation are authentic is the assurance of unnamed US government sources. Otherwise, every aspect of this production is open for study.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south

Is it me or are these guys just getting more and more preposterous in their attempts to justify themselves? They don't even seem to be trying to make up good lies any more.
solitary hiker
7:13:03 AM
12/16/01

Watch out mate, they might come after you.
Bunyip
7:25:01 AM
12/16/01

The Horsesh!t Meter is runnin' a little on the high side in regards to this whole video tape affair.

The timing is rather suspicious what with the Enron Scandal heating up.

When compared to the White Water Scandal, which was investigated quite thoroughly with no finding of wrong-doing, this Enron thing is BIG.

The Clintons lost about $100,000 in a real estate deal and Enron and Friends stole BILLIONS!

Where did the money go?

Oooo, am I on the sh!t list now?

Tom Terrific
1:34:50 PM
12/16/01

Well said Tom. Now if you'll start buying some guns I could see you turning into a right thinking true patriot.
solitary hiker
2:14:17 PM
12/16/01

CIA's Funniest Home Video Part II
More good stuff. Enjoy!


The CIA's Funniest Home
Video - Part II
Fun With Sound Tracks

From Brasscheck
ken@brasscheck.com
12-16-1

Long ago, for six very intense and interesting months, I was a hands on, minority partner in a then struggling motion picture sound editing studio.

Our offices were on the 13th floor of New York City's then decrepit Film Center building on Ninth Avenue, two blocks north of the Port Authority bus terminal.

I won't mention the name of the company or my then partner because he is not only apolitical, he also finds my opinions horrifying and "negative", However, if you've ever seen "Like Water for Chocolate" (the highest grossing Spanish language film of all time) or "When We Were Kings" (Academy Award winner for Best Documentary), you know his sound editing work.

Anyway, in that brief period, I learned quite a bit about the practical details of manipulating the sound that accompanies film and video so that it seems not only plausible, but *perfect*

Here's some of the things I learned:

First, creating a movie *always* requires the meticulous, step-by-step cobbling together of audio and visual materials to create the illusion of reality. A good percentage of this work takes place *after*the film is shot. It's called post production.

Second, sound editing (or sound manipulation) is a profession. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of people all over the world who practice it every day of the week. It's no big deal. Digital tools have made it easier, but the principles have been in play since the first "talkie."

Third, every television program and motion picture you see depends of aural as well as visual manipulation. In fact - and note this well - of the two, sound manipulation is the more essential.

Here's what I mean. Have you ever seen a godzilla movie where the dubbing is off? The lips are moving, but no sound comes out and then suddenly you hear the person speak with his mouth closed. It kills the "suspension of belief" doesn't it? You're instantly reminded that you're watching a movie, a fake. On the other hand, visual blemishes are routinely overlooked by movie goers and TV watchers. Black and white, for example, does not look real, but within seconds we accept it and become engrossed in the story.

Because of this phenomenon, huge quantities of time, money and energy are spent to manipulate audio tracks (sounds effects and dialog) in the post production process so that they sound "right." It's not at all unusual that due to production problems (a plane flying overheard, a faulty microphone, a muddled line) an entire dialog track has to be re-recorded long after the movie is "in the can." This process is known as "looping" or ADR (automatic dialog replacement) and *every* film actor and film studio is familiar with it.

Any time you see a movie and are not jarred by audio discrepancies, you're experiencing a masterpiece of audio manipulation, the product of HUNDREDS of hours of minute attention to creating, modifying and matching sound to picture so that it is experienced as "real.".

Think about the number of film and TV movies you've seen. How many times have you experienced an audio error? Answer: With the exception of the godzilla flicks, never. The reason: Audio errors are intolerable and they are virtually always fixable. (Audio is far more malleable than visuals.)

Let's get practical.

If the Osama bin Laden "confession" was a faked, how would it have been done?

Before I answer, let me say that I'd love to have a copy of the video for further study. I'd ESPECIALLY love to have the very video that was purportedly found in Afghanistan. It would be pretty easy to detect manipulation of the audio track on the original. It may even be possible to do it from a copy, but the closer to the original the better.

Given that no one is going to give me the original, let me suggest how I, as a former audio manipulation professional, would have created this particular tape. I'll start with an easy method and advance to more complicated ones. However, keep in mind that nothing that I'm describing is rocket science. It is done every day in Hollywood and anywhere else where there are people who make movies for a living.

- The easy way

First: Find some footage of bin Laden. Muddy the video and darken it so it's not easy to match his lip movements with what comes out of his mouth.

Second: Muddy the audio so it cannot be heard clearly. Obscure any passages where he says things that create a context that does not support the "confession" interpretation of what he is saying.

Third: Hire friendly interpreters to create subtitles that interpret everything he says in such a way as to support the "confession" story.

Fourth: Thank Allah the whole thing is in Arabic so the intended audience won't have the faintest clue as to what he was or was not saying.

- A somewhat more involved way

First: Hire an Osama bin Laden look alike. Intelligence agencies are gifted in finding and using such people.

Second: Dress him in a green US Army field jacket. (On second thought, scratch that. A fanatical fundamentalist Islamisist wearing the uniform of his sworn enemy is too absurd to be believed even by TV-addled idiots.)

Third: Give him a script.

Fourth: Shoot and then muddy the audio and video to make the tape seem more like something that would have been found in rough condition.

Notice that except for some relatively recent digital tools that make it much easier to muddy audio and video to taste, nothing I've described requires skills or equipment that wasn't available in the 1930s.

Now some people have claimed that the voice on the video has been analyzed and verified to be bin Laden's. Therefore, the idea that a live actor or a voice over specialist was used is out of the question. Or is it?

First, there's no reason to believe the authenticity of the audio without additional evidence especially given the reputation the source has for frequent lying. Second, voice analysis is not an insurmountable problem. The "easy way" shows how this whole matter could have be handled with no need for fancy fakery.

However, for those who love techno-conspiracies, here's the "hard way" it could have been done.

- The hard way

First: Find an existing Osama bin Laden video.

Second: Muddy the audio and video as in the "easy way"

Third: Whenever you need Osama to say something that sounds incriminating, go to the audio file of bin Laden recordings collected over the years by various intelligence agencies and select useful clips.

(Rent the movie "Primary Colors" to see how easy it is with editing to put words into the mouth of someone you've been surveilling for any reasobable length of time.)

Fourth: Match the replacement clips with the movement of Osama's lips and insert them over what he actually said. To make this task easier, make sure you insert new comments only when it is difficult to read his lips. This will give you the leeway you need to slip in any new comments undetected.

I understand that the found tape was rather long, over an hour. This would have given a skilled sound editor an abundance of lip movement patterns to chose from in order to find a compatible section to insert choice sound clips over.

Fifth: When done, muddy the thing again to smooth away any rough edges.

Assuming that voice analysis was done of every single frame of the tape shown to the public, then the above is the way such a feat could have been accomplished. A pain the the butt, but nothing beyond the ability of a professional audio editor. We used to do things like this every day of the week.

My guess though is even if a voice analysis test was conducted by someone credible ("to dream, the impossible dream...") I doubt that the audio of the ENTIRE tape was analyzed. It would have been a simple matter to given an honest man a SECTION of the tape for voice analysis in order to get his thumbs up and then make alterations to other sections with the voice over artist (thousands of them are available in all languages). Taking this approach, the painstaking cut and paste method I described above ("the hard way") wouldn't have even been necessary. It would be a simple ADR job (looping) and there isn't anything more bread and butter in the world of film making than looping.

Ask the Hollywood folks the Bush administration was meeting with so intently not that long ago.

I hope I haven't made a simple matter into something more complicated than it needs to be, but the point I want to leave you with is that there are many, many tried and true ways to fake a tape like the bin Laden "confession" and, with the exception of "the hard way" described above, none of them are terribly difficult to pull off. Even the "the hard way" is well within the range of common, garden variety audio editing practice even before the digital revolution.
solitary hiker
2:31:32 PM
12/16/01

Dude!
I sold ALL my gunz and used the money to buy power tools!

I told the gunshop guy that I was beating my swords into plowshares!

He said, "I'd like to see ya defend your home with plowshares!"

I had lost interest in shooting and with teenage boys and their friends hangin' out I think it was wise to remove the threat from within.

If need be I can take up the M-16 and M-60 again to defend this country from the hoards as they come swarming ashore.

Tom Terrific
2:39:48 PM
12/16/01

solitary hiker-
Thank you for continuing to raise doubts about the shenannigans of this questionable administration.

If we keep pecking at them the nation may yet be saved from creeping fascism.

Tom Terrific
3:00:03 PM
12/16/01

Tom, if you could help me understand this situation:

“The timing is rather suspicious what with the Enron Scandal heating up.”

I don’t see the connection between the tape and a failed oil company. How will this help? What is the EXACT connection to Bush?

“Enron and Friends stole BILLIONS!”

True but again, what’s this got to do with Bush? The government is NOT going to bail this company out and in fact they are under federal investigation, if I’m not mistaken.
nigal
3:27:55 PM
12/16/01

Nigal,
I think one of the head guys at Enron was a big Bush campaign contributor. Maybe that's where Tom is coming from.

Enron was one of the three companies that were raking California over the coals last summer. Duke Power was another one. I'm not sure who the third company was. All of them made billions. And they probably thought they could get away with it as long as Dubya was El Presidente. But I think even ole Dubya was scared of where this was going and he left them twisting in the wind.

But be of good cheer Patriots. All is well in Kapitalist Amerika. The Board of Directors and the main officers of the company got to bail out with their millions before the "ship" went down. They will take their money and become venture kapitalists in an oil pipeline project coming to a Central Asian country we've heard about in the news of late.
solitary hiker
5:18:11 PM
12/16/01

Yeah Tom but who's going to save it from the Democratic Party fascists who want to take my guns and tax me into poverty?

VOTE BUCHANAN NEXT TIME!
solitary hiker
5:26:16 PM
12/16/01

"I think one of the head guys at Enron was a big Bush campaign contributor. Maybe that's where Tom is coming from."

I think we can all agree on the shadieness of campaign contributions but this shows no ill behavior on Bush's part. So a contributing company is bad at business? If anything the non envolvement/bailing out of Enron would be a feather in Bush's cap.

"But I think even ole Dubya was scared of where this was going and he left them twisting in the wind."

This seams a bit unfair, no? It sounds as if bush is not holding up his end of some illegal agreement. Again, another feather in George's cap it would appear.

I must thank you for at least giving an explaination SH. I believe Tom blows smoke and then can't figure out where it came from when asked [examp. Tired of Dubya thread]. 8)
nigal
5:52:41 PM
12/16/01

You're worried about Fascism and you want us to vote for BUCHANAN?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

Good GOD!

He's the biggest damn thief to come down the pike in quite some time. Ever hear of the Reform Party??? Where the hell were you when that went down?
Tilt
7:24:53 PM
12/16/01

Ice is a Fed
Don't make me silence you solitary.
Ice Tea
9:18:03 PM
12/16/01

LMAO @ tea. Wade on in there tea, your perspective is as good as anyone's.
chili36
9:26:12 PM
12/16/01

Bush and company already are trying to bail out Enron. Their "stimulus" package calls for a refund of the Corporate Alternative Minimum Tax (i.e. a "retroactive cut") that would give Enron 240 million bucks.

The corporate ATM was designed to counter corporate tax loopholes that allowed hugely profitable corporations to avoid all taxes. While the repeal of the ATM seems outrageous to me, some argue that it is a worthwhile incentive. The refund, however, is not an incentive it is a plain old giveaway.
pedxing
11:02:45 PM
12/16/01

Bu-bu-bu-bu-bu-bu-Buchanan!!!!

Feathers in Bush's cap???
I think those feathers are blowin' outta his ears!

No Nigal I don't have evidence!
I'm not a prosecutor or lawyer of any kind.
But it don't take a genius to see that our Executive Twinkie(Mr Bush) is somehow involved in this mess.

Having a Republickin in the White House has given these corporate thieves the green light to plunder.

Hell, Mr Lay of Texas and Enron helped write the Bush Regime's energy policy along with Petroleum Dude Cheney.
This was done in secret without input from our legislative branch.
Shortly there after came the rape of California.

Ashcroft is going after "important" stuff like Oregon's Assisted Suicide Law and abortion and the Sham War on Drugs while seriously reducing prosecution of white collar crime.

Tom Terrific
7:46:21 AM
12/17/01

ROTFLMAO!!!!

thanks for saying it, tilt. i couldn't type, while i was laughing that hard!
radagast
7:54:54 AM
12/17/01

"No Nigal I don't have evidence!"

This is all I gotta hear. More baseless BS. At least come up with a link or two or cut and paste something to suport your stuff. Opinions mean Jack Crummy in the world of politics. Fact my good man! Facts!
nigal
7:54:58 AM
12/17/01

Buchanan Knows His Sh#t
Pat Buchanan is one of the few guys talking about what NAFTA, the IMF, and the WTO are really doing. And not just to the United States, but to the second and third world countries like Korea, Argentina, and any number of places in Africa.

Futhermore, he is the only person willing to question our "damn the torpedoes" pro Israel policies. He questions our past and future wars against Iraq as nothing more than proxy wars for Israel. There is a ring of truth about it.

Israel pretends to be a democracy and the United States' best ally in the region. Pat Buchanan would argue that they are neither. And you know what? He has some damn compelling evidence. Having studied what happened to the U.S.S. Liberty during the Six Day War, the Jonathan Pollard case, and the attempt of the Israelis to sell AWACs technology to the Chinese just last year I tend to believe him.

I haven't even begun cut and paste some of the info beginning to come over the internet about the Israelis having bugged the White House during the Clinton administration. This story has been floating around on the net for over a year now and was picked up by Insight Magazine last year. None of the majors would touch it. Just in the last few weeks FOX News has begun to talk about it. Some are saying that the Israelis are the ones that leaked the Lewinski Affair. In some of her testimony Lewinski said that Bill Clinton told her that it was suspected that a foreign power had tapped into some of the telephones lines to the White House. The word out is that it was Israel.

Pat Buchanan has been called an anti-Semite by the likes of Michael Kelly and Cal Thomas for telling the truth and calling it like he sees it. I think the man has a lot of insight and I'd vote for him anyday before a Democrat or Republican.
solitary hiker
9:16:19 AM
12/17/01

One thing I do like about Pat is that he would hang the, "All Filled up. Try back Later" sign at out borders.
nigal
9:28:55 AM
12/17/01

Red Rider

LUNATIC FRINGE

Lunatic fringe
I know you're out there
You're in hiding
And you hold your meetings
We can hear you coming
We know what you're after
We're wise to you this time
We won't let you kill the laughter

Lunatic Fringe
In the twilight's last gleaming
This is open season
But you won't get too far
We know you've got to blame someone
For your own confusion
But we're on guard this time
Against your final solution
We can hear you coming
(We can hear you coming)
No you're not going to win this time
We can hear the footsteps
(We can hear the footsteps)
Way out along the walkway
Lunatic Fringe
We know you're out there
But in these new dark ages
There will still be light

An eye for an eye
Well, before you go under
Can you feel the resistance
Can you feel the....thunder

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