New Government Rules and Regulations for Backpacke

“I've been reading on various .gov sites about new or seminew regulations for backpackers. What do you think of the following attempts to regulate.

1. The requireing of Bear Canisters they further make hanging food illegal.

2. The Outlawing of Wood Fires Including wood buring stoves like the zip stove.

3. Requireing Backpackers to camp in designated sites only. This makes stalth camping illegal.”

“In heavy use areas, it's necessary. I don't like it, but I can understand it. And, I understand why they're doing it and what they hope to accomplish with it.”

“If an area is so impacted by hikers that these rules must be instituted they need to close the area. I would not hike in federal areas.”

“I guess I don't care about the fire thing so much as bear canisters and designated sites. I've never seen a heavely used area where you couldn't hike a mile off the trail to a never before used spot for solitude. Also I think the whole stealth camping philosophy does nothing that would harm that spot. Not like the ranger is going to know where you are to ticket you anyway.”

“By passing regulations to limit impact, more people can use a given area and cause less damage. This will hopefully limit the need for permits and closures.

If you don't like the rules - go elsewhere.”

“It's a matter of environmental degredation and responsible use. In heavily used areas, the environmental impact is lessened if it is contained in one area rather than dispersed. The bear cannisters are necessary to lessen the occurance of habituation and bear attacks.”

“I can understand the need to limit damage to an area and it's wildlife, but do zip stoves really do any harm. And does stealth camping cause any more harm to a heavely used area? And if stealth camping and cooking food a few miles before you make camp, do you really need to pack a bear canister?

I know that the regulations are wellmeaning, but are they really necessary and do they actually prevent further distruction of an area?”

“They're based on years of research. If you really want answers to those questions, perhaps you should read up on the subject.”

“I have, and I think some of the old ideas and philosophys should be rethought.”

“1. requiring Bear Canisters

So they have made it clear that hanging food won't cut it? Maybe this is the only way they can guarantee that bears don't get at the food and become REAL nuisances and have to be destroyed. If you lug a canister in, you're sure to use it. If you say you're gonna hang your food, maybe you will....maybe you won't.

2. Outlawing Wood Fires

There's a ban nearly every summer in the Cascades due to fire danger. They also ban wood fires above 4000' in most areas because there is so little wood available that fools start using live trees or snags.

3. camp in designated sites only.

I'll bet this is more window dressing than anything. If you talk to a ranger, they'll probably say it's for casual weekenders just so they stay on already established campsites rather than trampling out a new one. I'll bet they won't have a problem with you stealth camping. And if they did, would they find you?”

“Good point on 3, maybe the rules are mostly for the careless ones. It is too bad that the few make it hard for the many.”

“If you are doing this you are probably going far enough from the trail and minimizing your impact as it is. If everyone did this, they wouldn't need designated camping to begin with.

If everyone were responsible with their food...

If everyone were responsible with their firebuilding, fuel usage and extinguishing...”

“Let's go find everyone who's been a moron in the woods and pound them. Who's with me?”

“I really hate being told where to camp but its apparent many people are loving the outdoors to death. Some people know how to stealth camp without creating an impact but plenty do not.

Woods fire, in any form, could create a jumping spark that unnoticed and during a dry season, could create a massive wildfire, damaging millions of acres of habitat and animals.

Bear can, while they weigh more, I found to be less of a hassle than hanging. Again, a lot of people don't know how to properly hand food.

Since there is no required outdoors course (yeah, a fire permit but that's pretty limited)to backpack, there have to be precautions in place to keep dopes who don't know what their doing from majorly screwing it up for the rest of us. It's pretty much like everything else in the county.”

“How much do those bear cans weigh anyway.

I know that one would have not been enough for the last hike I went on. We had 50 lbs of food in 3 FILLED sleeping bag stuff sacks hoisted 12 ft off the ground. Never had a single problem for the 8 nights we spent in the bear frequented backcountry of Yosemite.”

“Are canisters manditory there? I've use carbon fiber/titanium canisters of varying size. They're pretty light, lighter than the garcia cans. You can get two weeks of food into the larger ones. Learning to pack them is an art form.”

“Not required in Yosemite yet, but I think it's just a matter of time. Where did you get your light canister and how much does it weigh?”

“Just like the 'Stop the Madness' thread.

Backpacking impacts the environment and people get killed, so ban the sport!

I volunteer to patrol the backcountry for scofflaws.”

“I haven't seen the ti/carbon fiber cans for sale but plan to inquire with NPS on where they purchased them. They're very nice. They're pretty damn light. Maybe a pound and a half or two at most. If I find out more, I'll let you know.”

“I thought that even bear cannisters didn't keep all of the food smell in. Do they?

What if someone thinking that it did and the smell is not completely contained, keeps it closer to his camp area, maybe in the area or in his tent, raising the possiblity of bear encounters/attacks?

I think that if anything should be a - law - or -rule- it should be L N T.

I think you could come up with a system to do be able to enforce it very easly, but hard to provide a force to enforce (may the FORCE be with you).

The designated site thing I could see in some busy areas (Manistee River in MI has some designated sites and it seems to work well), but not everywhere. With limited "seating" on a trail, hikers will have to be more on the ball in order to get prime spots, if a spot at all.

Might not be a bad idea to try the no fires thing for a year or two to see if it made an improvement. If it did, I'd be ok with that law (except in winter - very nice to have fire in winter)”

“Bear cannisters are not air tight, to my knowledge.”

“Numbers 1 & 2 make some sense but number 3 is kind of dumb.

By forcing people to camp in designated spots, you've just created a mini mall for the bears. Now they'll know exactly where to patrol. Bear cannisters will work in the beginning, but the bears just may get more aggressive.”

“Let's see if they can catch me!







The controlling everything and everybody method never works. Most people will say "screw the Grand Canyon" before they give up driving their own cars and ride the bus. I've always thought a little heavily over-used woods was a good thing because all those people were staying out of the quiet, remote places. The masses of couch potatoes own and fund the public land and they won't continue to do so if there's nothing in it for them. No amount of laws or brain-washing will change that.”

“True true! We've got this one OHV area that the NPS keeps open 365 days a year even with snow. It's called Bald Mtn. The entire place is thrashed, people drive off the paths all the time and it has become one muddy mess of a mountain. The top has an old closed down Fire Lookout. There is probably 10,000 spent shot gun shells and some unused bullets amongst the mess of broken glass at the top. Sure it's a nasty mess, an environmental desaster area. But it's only a couple of square miles and it seems to satisfy the locals who spent the entire year spending their pay checks on Sky jacked trucks. Just as long as they keep punchin that hill all the others near by can remain safe.”

“Bears go for the food smell. After they have tried to get into a bear cannister and failed miserably, they don't even try anymore. They need the path of least resistance when going for food. If they have to expend too much energy for nothing, it's not worth it to them. They have tracked/observed bears doing this. They try to open one or two bear cannisters and then start avoiding them (on sight) and only go after the bags. And they do seem to avoid repeat contact with a human whose cannister they tried to open--whatever ID they use for that is subject to debate. The hypothesis is that if everyone starts carrying bear cannisters, the bears will just stop approaching all campsites altogether after awhile. It's not going to be worth the energy expenditure. This research was published in the scientific journal Ecology and a couple others whose names I don't recall off hand. They were published in tandem with the restricted vs. dispersed camping studies. That is the research on which those regulations are based.”

“That's very interesting, Skully! Got a date on that issue of Ecology? I'd like to read it.”

“Sorry, it was a year and a half ago. I remember that it was a spring issue. Maybe Feb or Mar? I wish I could remember, it also had some wildlife habitat corridor studies in it that have heavily influenced conservation policy since then.”

“roseymonster - I think the bear canisters you mentioned are possibly the Bearikade that Snow Nymph uses - see link : Bearikade ”

“Hog: Yes. that appears to be them. I rented one from NPS on a 10 day trek in Sequoia this past summer. Worked great, but damn! Didn't realize they were so pricey!

They also don't seem to metion if it is NPS approved. I'm assuming it is since they are renting them?”

“Here in WY, and I assume MT, the Game & Fish have issued 'guidelines' when hunting in bear country. They include getting the meat out as soon as possible because the shot of a gun has become Pavlovs bell to the bears.

As soon as the bear hears the shot, they come to where the shot originated, knowing there is a dinner to be had.

Last year, a bear tried to get the elk meat off a horse and was shot. I know this because a) I know the outfitter and b) I know the hunter.

I disagree with the designated campsites for this very reason. The bears will eventually realize where the next meal will come from.”

“Pavlov's bell is the perfect analogy. The bears have been clasically conditioned to get the food from campsites. It's self-reinforcement in it's purest form. So how do you make the food totally unavailable so they unlearn it?”

“Start shooting at them again.”

“Except for NPs. Some wildernesses I've been to have a few restrictions, ie, fire, campsites. But most of the FS locales I go to are still pretty laid back.”

“Actually Chief, I was referring to keeping it in cannisters. Although your method would also work. That's not intended as support or criticism. Nor is it intended to start a debate on the merits or pitfalls of hunting.”

“humans are stupid, hence the need for regulations.

and us good folk who LNT and all that, end up paying for other peoples' stupid mistakes.

sad but true.

Sully, where are you?”

“Laws and regulations that govern less govern best. Yes, I will follow whatever guidelines or regulations that are implemented. But lets be honest and admit that the reason these new backcountry laws are even being considered in most places is not because of backpackers and outdoorsmen who practice LNT. Will those who do not abide by good backcountry ethics really follow any new regulations? I just can't see more regulations as the answer. I do know that many National Parks and super high traffic destinations are exceptions. Maybe they will if there is enough enforcement. However, that will cost. As a backpacker and outdoorsmen we have got to get the message out that the backcountry is a treasure. Leave it better than you left it. Sorry to get on my soapbox again.”

“I agree with you wholeheartedly trailhound. The thing about the research was that the subjects involved for the most part did practice LNT. In most wilderness areas that are not heavily used, that's good enough. Even then, you leave a trace. The parameters that were measured were ground compaction, increased erosion, and vegetation degradation. In high usage areas and even with responsible camping techniques these damages are actually far more widespread with dispersal camping. With designated campsites, the damage is contained somewhat. It is much more severe in those spots, but the other areas are protected. It boils down to an issue of wildlife habitat, etc. The study was a 'best usage' analysis and this was what came out as the lesser of two evils. I hate using designated campsites.”

“Those 'new' regulations have been around for decades. They are imposed in areas on an as-needed basis. Areas with little use or no problems do not have them. As problems develop regulations are enacted to prevent resource damage. Fire restrictions are seasonal in nature in many areas. Permanent wood fire bans are in areas where wood is in short supply. Popular heavy used areas have designated sites. Bear canisters are required where there are bear problems, which is certainly not everywhere.

This whole thread is much ado about nothing.”

“I vote to keep Uncle Sam out of my backpack-
Rules are rules but telling me I have to carry a bear canister in the south is the stupidest thing I've ever heard!
Wild camping in my view is the whole idea behind the leave no trace theory-less the idea of no fires--No fire- I ain't going-
If the rule is to have a fire we have to stay in designated sites-well I might consider that reasonable to a point-If some ahole wants to burn his stuff up-keep him the hell out of the woods-
If common sense means anything.”

“I hate the extra weight of the bear cans but it's really worth it to me. I will probably carry one from now on. I spoke with several Yosemite Rangers last year and they all agreed that the bears have already learned about bear canisters and don't even try to get in them anymore. The rangers also said the first bear cans used in the Yosemite area would have slobber all over them every morning and you might find them 100 or more yards from camp.
I spent the night in the infamous Lyle Canyon which has the reputation, bear can your food or loose it. Our canisters were right where we left them totaly undisturbed....not even a footprint nearby. The very same thing happened at Thousand Island Lake also, another reported bear haven.

I have never lost any food to the bears...but the smaller critters have had at my food a couple of times.”

“Don't need bear canisters.

Just spread peanut butter on the tents in the next campsite and bears will leave you alone.”

“When do they go into effect?”

“I aggree if the Ursa are present-only makes sense!
Hell I had more trouble with feral pigs in the GSMNP- destroyed a site. But shelters are also fenced. Hang it in a tree here.”

“If an area is heavily used, particuraly by people who don't practice LNT, then I agree with them. But to institute then on all backpackers, regardless of the locale, is lunacy. On a tangent note, if an area is that screwed up, then maybe there is someplace better to hike?”

“Where I hike (usually bear arent an issue) so point one is moot.

I like my zip-stove but havent used it in years.

If I choose to "guerrila camp" its doubtful I will be found. I have only seen ONE ranger on a trip in 16 years of bping. She gave me candy. I liked her.”

“I heard they made a law that you could'nt build a fire with a certain amount of feet from timberland. I might have dreamed it though.”

“one thing to note is that AFAIK the regulations concerning fires, camp sites and bear canisters are all based on locality - no country wide FS / NPS wide regulations exist that cover all areas - these regulations are local to specific areas and specific local conditions.”

“All of a sudden people that help "develop" and open up wild areas are community heroes. The pretense is that they're making it better for everyone. In my opinion they make it worse. I keep asking, what kind of person hikes in with 50lbs. of shovels, axes and hammers and start hacking on the wildlands. These people are far more dangerous then you can imagine. Most of these trail development volunteers are egoists that love to have their names associated w/ a trail. The trail is nameless my friend, and when you are in the woods, so are you. The gear companies love'em and award them. I say give up your membership in the Continental Divide Trail "Alliance" now. I can only speak about the CDTA because of what they are doing to the beautiful State of New Mexico. You can hike the Divide anytime you want. You don't need a trail, it's high desert for God's sake. More later, if anyone's interested.”

“The only place I've been in MI with designated campsites as a rule is Isle Royale and that is enforced. I've seen rangers helping folks to pack up their tent, etc and moving them to the next camp. The purpose there is to protect the flora, etc. It's a great place to go even with the campsites. They also request that you stay on trail as much as possible.”

“Unfortunatley those who make the laws aren't always those who hike the trails. They probably don't even realize what kind of imact their rules make on the hikers in the backwoods. I would like to believe that their intentions are probably in the right place when they start out. I mean really what do you do about controling the over population of Green horns who are entering our woods these days.
These people haven't a clue about what the heck they are doing, they leave the local outfitter armed with a new backpack and a cell phone and get lost and need to be extracted. The authorities are just starting to charge these people for services rendered.
It seems as though ever year around here we have more and more people vacationing in the Delaware Water Gap. The accidents are become more frequent, the bear attacks are becoming more frequent (due to feeding them) and so are the forest fires.
These problems are by no means caused by through hikers on the AT or packers but from the weekend warriors. How do/can lawmakers differenciate between them and us, especially if you too are warrior like the masses?”