Only in Amerika - Chapter 2

“Here's one for flag waving crowd.

If You Don't Want American
Flag Stamps, Watch Out!

From Mike Hagan
12-17-1

By Matthew Rothschild
www.Progressive.org
12-8-1

Even an innocuous trip to the Post Office can you get you into trouble these days.

Daniel Muller, is the co-coordinator of Voices in the Wilderness, a group dedicated to nonviolence and a leading opponent of U.S. sanctions against Iraq.

On November 9, Muller and his colleague Andrew Mandell went to pick up stamps at the Chicago post office they regularly visit. They were paying with cash.

"We needed 4,000 stamps for a mailing we were doing, and I asked for ones not with the American flag on them."

The woman asked if Statute of Liberty stamps were OK.

"Yes, we love liberty," said Andrew Mandell.

"She asked us to step aside from the counter, and she went to the back, out of view," recalls Muller. "I knew something was up because this was a bit out of the ordinary. And Andrew said, 'She's calling the cops,' but I didn't believe him.

"No one said anything to us for about twenty minutes, and then two cops came in and asked for our IDs. They asked if we had any outstanding warrants. They ran a check on us. They asked us why we had asked for stamps without American flags on them. I said we're very rooted in nonviolent activities, and we would rather have the Statue of Liberty than the American flag."

The Post Office told Muller and Mandell that they would have to come back the next morning for stamps.

Mandell got his stamps the next day, but he also was asked to meet with a federal postal inspector for more than a half-hour. The postal inspector, says Mandell, asked: "Why are you paying with cash? Where do you get your money?"

Afterwards, the group was permitted to send out its mailing.

"The fact that they did ask for anything but flag stamps did raise a question for the clerk," says Silvia Carrier, a public relations officer for the U.S. Postal Inspector in Chicago. Plus, "They were buying postage with a large amount of cash, and usually a company will use a meter or a business check. Right now, since September 11, clerks have been told to be cautious, to be looking out for anything suspicious."”

“Hmm, let's see. Letters containing Anthrax were mailed to members of Congress and the media via the U.S. Postal service. Some members of the postal service actually contracted Anthrax (and died) from handling the mail. FBI says that most likely it is domestic whackos spreading the Anthrax. Two guys walk into a Post Office with $1360 to buy 4,000 stamps and specifically request no American flags. Sol, if you were the clerk, you wouldn't be a little curious? Now, don't lie.”

“By the time I logged in to reply, BaSO had already posted. I can't think how to say it any better.”

“I just think it's great he limited his post to 1,000 words or less.”

“It's like when you are in your classroom as a second grader and someone decides to be an a$$. Some kind of problem results and the a$$ won't own up to his actions. The teacher decides to use peer pressure to punish the a$$. "No recess today class, we will stay inside w/ our heads on our desks." That always sucked. Getting punished, when you had nothing to do w/ the problem caused by the a$$ and the added pressure never worked anyway.

If the world was a big second grade classroom and the Sept. 11th E-Vell Doer was the a$$, that would make the general public the unfairly punished class. It sucks, but what happened to those guys is just part of the negative effect.”

“They were going to mail bin Laden out of Afghanistan and into America.”

“newgirl -

I'm pretty sure I wasn't in your 2nd grade class but it sounds so familiar. I'm sorry - just get over it!”

“I'm pretty sure you weren't either Violin, but I meant it to be a situation that people could (as you did) relate to. I am over it, I was trying to illustrate for Solitary they way the whole thing works. Like Baso said, some people frickin' died, it sucks, but we will have to be a bit more harsh now.”

“Like two guys are going to show their faces if they are really going to mail 4,000 items with Anthrax in them. Please!!

And if the USPS was so suspicious why wasn't the FBI there the next day to interview them?

Answer: See my Chapter 3 and you'll know why.”

“I hear ya Sol buddy. Just like some guys are not going to take flying lessons where they only learn how to steer the plane and not learn how to take off and land.”

“Yeah Bozo4 there were a lot of things people could do and say in Amerika before 911.”

“Sol Dude, look out your window! Ashcroft is there with his black helicopter to take you away to ...................................... solitary confinement”

“Great comeback. That only makes about the 20th time you or one of the other creative geniuses at TT have used the black helicopter routine on me. I'm sure the other low-brows will enjoy it but to be honest, it's lamer than Violin's HTML antics.”

“Solitary, why do crave this much attention? Few if any people take you seriously as evidenced by responses to your threads. Give it a rest. You arent persuading anyone. You arent even encouraging dialog as evidenced by your failure to do anything more than cut/paste then call others sheep. Talk about "low-brow""antics". Give it a rest. Take a deep breath and relax............”

“Why doesn't an organization big enough to need 4,000 stamps have a postal machine for their office? Even though it may cause us some inconvieniences things out of the unusual will be questioned.”

“Hey, I'm just here for the money and ratings!

Birch can I make a serious suggestion? If you don't like my spin on things do what anyone who really wants the threads to go away would do. Don't read the threads and don't add commentary. It's that simple!

And get used to the fact that unless Matt bans me I'm not going away. I was here a long time before you ever though about coming here. I'll probably be here a long time after you and the rest of your ilk have gone.”

“We must also remember that paying for anything with a big wad of cash will get ya questioned too. Next time ya get on a plane go to the counter and buy the ticket with cash. You'll get asked a few questions and if you are carrying it in any sort of way a drug deal might you very well could lose the rest of the wad.”

“I've gotta side with Solitary. Since when does requesting stamps without American flags have anything to do with being subversive? What if they had asked for Elvis stamps? Weren't all the anthrax letters mailed in pre stamped envelopes? I guess if someone wanted to pay cash for 4000 pre stamped envelopes I could imagine getting a little uncomfortable.

Maybe solitary should have titled this thread "It's begining to look a lot like the Soviet Union".

Maybe if people could look past the poster they would be able to read the postings a little more objectively.”

“$1400 is a big wad of cash? We're talking Amerikan dollars here. This isn't 1951.”

“Your posts are plagiarized and your conclusions are illogical. You, Dr. Sol, are a poor conspiracy theorist.”

“You have all just acted out the scenario Sol was trying to point out - intolerance for dissent. Dissent is what made America, improves America and is a freedom I hold in higher esteem than anything. We have enough fear in this country already. It's an old worn out cliche but it's meaningful, more now, than ever, "I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
thanks,
W”

“You have all just acted out the scenario Sol was trying to point out - intolerance for dissent. Dissent is what made America, improves America and is a freedom I hold in higher esteem than anything. We have enough fear in this country already. It's an old worn out cliche but it's meaningful, more now, than ever, "I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
thanks,
W”

“Wilk, I too, enjoy that freedom very much. I think that people should be able to go to their local stamp dealin' shoppes and buy Elvis Presley rather than Ducks Unlimited stamps w/ a big wad of dough if they want. They should be able to walk into the building wearing a turban and whitie tighties and they should be allowed to say that they don't support a war effort. I don't agree w/ it either. HOWEVER, the reality is that some seriously bad sh*t went down and now we got to be a bit more restricted, so more bad sh*t can hopefully be avoided and even further erode those freedoms.”

“Pepper: The point isn't that what these guys were doing was subversive or nasty. The point is that Postal workers are human beings and have had reality based reasons to be very nervous. The title "only in Amerika" was totally unwarranted.

I am certainly worried about John Ashcroft and others who seem to have very anti-democratic leanings and am vigilant for signs of creeping authoritarianism. But I don't see any in this story.”

“They weren't arrested. They were questioned. I think that's a big difference. My brother was detained and questioned for several hours in late September because his legitimate actions near a nuclear power plant looked suspicious. The police were polite and professional. He was inconvenienced but felt a little safer seeing that such measures were being taken.

If these (stamp buying) guys had been up to no good and hadn't been questioned, the 'alternate media' that solitary hiker likes to borrow from would have had a field day ridiculing the government's incompetence.


newgirl - I was trying to make a joke that it was me that got your whole 2nd grade punished by my a$$inine behavior.”

“"$1400 is a big wad of cash? We're talking Amerikan dollars here"

I consider myself to be Mr.Joe Average American and I don't know anyone (even my rich friends) who walk around with a roll like this. $1,400 is still a good bit of cash, even today.”

“nigal-
Even when you're out doin' a buy?

I suppose its a bit silly, the clerk calling the cops.
I was a letter carrier many years ago and the POD certainly did have some knuckleheads worning there.

Now if they were trying to buy $1,400 worth of, say, rifle ammunition, then it would be a good idea to call the Mounties.

I mean, STAMPS......what are they gonna do, lick themselves to death?”

“Repeat after me....."resistance is futile, you will be assimilated". Seriously, timing is everything and those stamp buyin' guys were a little out of sync. I personally would be willing to live with the potential for terrorist attack then give up ANY personal freedom and have the gov't intrude more into my life. That's just an equation not an idealistic statement. You should also realize that the voice of dissent gives perspective to generally accepted opinions, etc. Otherwise, we are the Borg.”

“Tom an ex-POSTAL worker?

Why am I not surprised?


SH is certainly entitled to his dissent - just as we are entitled to tell him to shut his pie hole and toe the line. I personally enjoy this debate and think it’s important dialogue.

Having any government at all is going to mean the loss of some personal freedom - I don't think anyone here has advocated anarchy (not yet anyway). We can never be totally safe from terrorists or totally free. The trick is to find the right balance, consistent with the Bill of Rights and our democratic principals.”

“What those two guys should have done is say, "Yeah give us the American flag stamps.... We'll just put them on the envelops upside-down!"

That would have really sent the clerk into postal mode. S/he would have shot them. And Amerika would have two less traitors to be paranoid about.”

“I do understand that voicing dissent gives perspective to commonly held opinions. And no I don't want to be "assimilated." I have said aloud that I don't support a "war on terrorism." I don't support war, but I also think that it is time for Americans to do a little less worrying about me, me, me. Alot of eastern cultures put emphasis more on the group, than the individual. You are right, the stamp buyin' dudes timing is a bit off and right now the focus is being shifted just a tiny bit in America to be on the GROUP. What a bunch of complainers, we could all give an inch so that we hopefully don't have to take the chance of grieving for our own loved ones (should they be victims of anthrax, or bombing, or whatever).”

“Solitary, just as you are permitted to cut/paste ad nauseum, I am permitted to badger you.I will be here for a while,pack a lunch son cause its gonna be a loooooong walk. Violin put it well.

willk, Please dont misunderstand my point here. I have little to no objections with what SH writes ( I use the term write in the most liberal sense since he doesnt actually write most of "his" material). I prolly agree with him more than disagree. Its about him and his tactics.He isnt even posting his own dissent. He's posting the dissent of someone else. A fairly lazy way to make a point. If he were to lay out HIS views in a similar way I reckon he'd be taken more seriously.

BTW SH I LOVE your little "i been here longer than you bit". Very classy and such a persuasive technique in a discussion. Did you learn that in a junior high debating club class?”

“I admire your ideals about being selfless; certainly one of the values I admire. I think what we're talking about here is the pressure to be part of the GROUP as you have defined it.”

“I am pressuring Solitary Gunman no more than he is pressuring anyone else. Turnabout is fair play.”

“RAOTMFFLAMFWTLMMFACOOMMFL!!!”

“LOL! Birch I'll probably have found a new cut and paste job by tomorrow. Be sure to drop in and add your $0.02 worth.”