restaurant smoking ban

“Just don't sit near the door.

The door is constantly opening with people going out to smoke in 0 degree temps!”

“Just Say No.”

“I was in Ireland about a year ago and they have banned smoking there.
The Guinness tastes better without smoking someone else's cigarette.
Dublin on a Friday night was like a huge street party with all the smokers outdoors.
Not so in the U.K. part.....smoky pubs.

The smoking ban in Manhattan actually improved business.
I enjoyed a night out in The Village with Treebeard a while back and went home without burning eyes.”

“I am never for the abolition of private property ownership rights in the guise of what is best for the public. While I do prefer to eat in areas that are non-smoking I am never a fan of having our government force my prefernce by rule of law. I think one of my favorite writers Walter Williams said it best.

A majority of Americans agree with laws prohibiting smoking in restaurants, bars, airplanes, factories and offices and other "public" places. But why should their wishes be indulged through force of law? Are restaurants, bars, airplanes, factories and offices publicly owned places? No. For the most part, restaurants, bars, airplanes, factories and offices are private property simply doing business with the public. As such the institution of private property rights should resolve any conflict over smoking. The owner of a restaurant or bar should have the right to decide whether smoking is permitted on his premises or not. Customers have the right to decide the terms on which they patronize the restaurant. If the owner does not permit smoking, then people who wish to smoke during dinner can decide not to patronize that restaurant. Similarly, an employer who wishes to permit smoking in his offices should have the right to do so. People who wish to work in a smoke-free office environment can simply choose some other place
of employment where the owner does not permit smoking.


There is absolutely no moral argument for people to use the power of the state to force a restaurant owner who does not want smoking in his establishment to accommodate smokers. Just as there is no moral argument for people to use the power of the state to force a restaurant owner who permits smoking to prohibit smoking. That would be the moral values in a free society; however, so much of mankind exhibits a generalized contempt for the principles of liberty. We succumb to the temptation of using the power of
the state to forcibly impose our preferences on others. In doing so, we establish dangerous precedents that have dire implications for liberty. After all if health concerns become the reason for violating private property rights and forcibly overruling people's preferences, where does it end? There are people who want to place high taxes on non-nutritious food, so called junk food, and use the proceeds to build hiking and biking paths. There are people who want to regulate caffeine content in coffee, sodas and chocolates. There are people who want to regulate the size of meal servings in Chinese and Mexican restaurants because they are deemed too large and contribute to the nation's obesity problems. (2)


Health concerns can be used as justification to control a considerable part of our day to day lives, from what time we go to bed to whether we exercise or not. Some might claim that such a concern is overly alarmist and that kind of government control is impossible. But back in the 1960's when anti-tobacco zealots were simply asking that there be separate sections on airplanes for non-smokers, who would have predicted what we have today? When the anti-tobacco zealots started out, had they revealed their true and
complete agenda, they never would have gotten separate sections for non-smokers on airplanes.


Walter E. Williams
Ideas on Liberty, April 2000
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ENDNOTES


1. In July 1999, U.S. District Court Judge William L. Osteen found reason to nullify the EPA's 1992 report that claimed second-hand smoke to be a class A human carcinogen and cause of lung cancer. He found that the EPA knowingly, willfully and aggressively put out false and misleading information.


2. Michael Jacobson, director of the Center for Science in the Public Interest, says about large food servings, "It's high time the [restaurant] industry begins to bear some responsibility for its contribution to obesity, heart disease and cancer." Dr. Ronald Griffiths, at Johns Hopkins University, concerned about coffee addiction says, "If health risks are well-documented, caffeine could be catapulted in public perception from a pleasant habit to a possibly harmful drug of abuse." Along with Michael Jacobson, he wants the FDA to regulate caffeine content in soda, coffee, tea and chocolate.
last edited: 12/09/05 8:27:23 AM”

“One of the local Waffle Houses went NonSmoking!
Glory Be!”

“Like Birch said it is not that hard to design a HVAC system to prevent smoke exchange. As long as the nonsmoking area is at least partially sealed and has higher air pressure. You put a make-up air system on the nonsmoking side and an exhaust on the smoking side. With that type HVAC system even the smoking area would be virtually smoke free. Our labs at work are designed that way so that the air from the lab can never back up into the office spaces. You are only talking adding a few fans and ducts not big money. It does require two HVAC zones but only a tiny resturant would have only one HVAC unit anyway.”

“I agree DDX.

However, up until recently, I was a weak, weak man When it came to smoking. The hardest thing about quitting is tobaccos frikken omnipresence. I once quit for 3 years and still went back.

I'd be fine with the govt ban tobacco.
last edited: 12/09/05 9:01:43 AM”

“DeoreDx,
Reading the highlights of your posting (pasting) I would agree that a private buisness has the right to do what it wants with its smoking policy. But what does a worker / employee do to protect themselves in a place of buisness that allows smoking. Besides quiting there is nothing. Explain that article to the lady in Chiciago that got lung cancer from second hand smoke. And once again not everybody can just quit their job and find another”

“Yesterday I was talking about smoking bans with three coworkers who are smokers. Our jobs involve frequent travel all over the country. All three of them said they always ask for non-smoking rooms when they book a hotel room. I asked why wouldn’t you get a smoking room? They all said that smoking rooms are way to disgusting to stay in, so they get non-smoking rooms and smoke in them. I told them they were all a-holes.”

“The majority rules! Isn't this what is happening as major city after city goes smokeless? Chicago just joined the list.

Thinking back years ago, it was not uncommon for smokers to blow their smoke out without any concern that they might be blowing it into someone's face. In fact, often I felt it was intentional, imitating scenes that had been seen in movies. Nowdays such offensive action could result in getting one's light's turned off!”

“"I can eat my tacos in peace. Yippee!!!!"
pixie
7:14:50 PM
12/08/05

I'd like to eat your taco, smokeless Sally.”

“I also voted 'yes' on the anti-smoke law in WA..even when I was a smoker, I didn't like smoking indoors-or in my car. Ihated the stench. I like being able to go out-and in WA, I don't think it will be too hard, a lot of places had banned smoking years before anyway! Smokers defintely get the cold treatment here anyways.
Pixie....now we can have happy hour again and not have to smell cigar smoke! (Last time, that guy at the bar? Blech!)”

“And once again not everybody can just quit their job and find another

Why not? Of course the smart person would find a new job then quit. Are people so bereft of personal responsibility that they cannot seek out employment in a job that does not expose them to health risks? My dad is a contractor and works outside and they found the beginning of skin cancer on his head. Does this mean we need to ban all exposure from sun? I had a friend killed when he touched an exposed 480v power wire, does this mean we should ban all industrial 480v power because there is a greater likely hood of getting killed with it? I'm all for a informed public which knows the risks of their particular choices in life but it's not our government's place to legislate us and tend and herd us like a flock of sheep.”

“Of course now that we have slowly destroyed our property rights over the years we now have large companies like Wal Mart and the large strip malls getting local governments to force people out of their houses so they can have the cheap land to build their tax revenue generating stores in the guise of what is in the best interest of the public. Being free and having liberty means protecting the liberties of those whose actions we do not agree with.”

“DDX is kinda grumpy this morning.

Come on DDX, you get to go BACKPACKING this weekend!
last edited: 12/09/05 9:41:48 AM”

“I am never happy about the erosion of our property rights or our personal liberties. ;-)

Did I mention I'm going hiking this weekend? :D”

“Yes, and you didn't invite me, smartypants!
(I still think you are a troll)”

“I thought you were going on DH's hike this weekend?”

“If you neighbor ran a chainsaw just outside your bedroom window at full bore every night 7 nights a week from midnight to 7:00 AM would you defend his right to do so or would you call the cops to make him stop?”

“Prohibit sex. We should do so, because of what it can produce. Just look at some of the characters on TT.”

“That wussy dayhiker canceled.
Something about being concerned about taking his 5 year old little boy backpacking in 25 degree temps.
What a wussy. ;-)




Paul, good point! LOL”

““If you neighbor ran a chainsaw just outside your bedroom window at full bore every night 7 nights a week from midnight to 7:00 AM would you defend his right to do so or would you call the cops to make him stop?”
must hike
9:44:57 AM
12/09/05

That's not even close to being in the same realm as a person owning a building allowing people to enter his building a smoke. The person visiting has the option to leave or enter. The example with the chain saw you are encroaching upon the rights of others.”

“Many people in the service industry know nothing else. Servers, Bartendars, etc. They are Professionals, and make good money. Non-smoking Restaurants are very limited.

How many here have changed careers? For Health risks?

How many Health risks are there in the medical professions?

In your profession?”

“Of course now that we have slowly destroyed our property rights over the years we now have large companies like Wal Mart and the large strip malls getting local governments to force people out of their houses so they can have the cheap land to build their tax revenue generating stores in the guise of what is in the best interest of the public. Being free and having liberty means protecting the liberties of those whose actions we do not agree with.”
DeoreDX
9:36:35 AM
12/09/05

well since we are back to "individual rights" etc...how about letting smokers pick up the tab for their habit with health care. Smoking isnt a right. Its a stupid and deadly habit.”

“Maybe give owners the choice, smoking or non...”

“Why is it different? I’m not talking about being on your property I’m talking about being on my property just very closed to your bedroom window.”

“"How many here have changed careers? For Health risks?"
bearmagnet

I quit a construction labor job for my health. Conditions were too unsafe because of a lousy foreman. I predicted to the timekeeper that unless conditions changed, someone was likely to get seriously injured and I decided it would not be me. Two people had already gotten injured that morning.
last edited: 12/09/05 10:17:44 AM”

“I don't smoke, and absolutely hate to be around it.
That said, I agree 100% with DDX's quote from Williams, above.

Land of the Free? Not much, anymore...”

“I’m not talking about being on your property I’m talking about being on my property just very closed to your bedroom window.”
must hike
10:03:15 AM
12/09/05

There is a huge philisophical difference between our two arguments. In your case I have created noise which encroaches upon your propery and intrudes upon your rights. If I am in a house and I am smoking you will not be able to be effected by my smoke unless YOU enter MY property. I hope you can see that basic philisophical difference.

As far a letting non-smokers pick up the tab for smoker's health benifits that's more of a problem with our third party pay health system. Does this mean I can gripe about our lower class citizens because they are more of a burden to our system?”

“Smoking isnt a right. Its a stupid and deadly habit.”
birch
10:57:04 AM
12/09/05

So is eating crap every day.

Good for you, NS. I'm just saying it's not so easy for everyone to just change jobs.

How many people in coal mining areas don't know the health hazards of working mines?”

“must hike - Sure, you're on your own property, but your noise is outreaching. There are laws in some places about noise infringement and the right to enjoyment of your property. If you were my neighbor and persisted in doing that, your health would be in danger.

Right now in my area they are cracking down on loud music systems being used in cars and other vehicles.”

“DeoreDX, smokers have a choice to smoke. Many born into poverty dont really have a choice about their status at birth.

I think williams argument is awesome and should be applied to airtravel. Open up all planes to all smoking all the time. If you dont like it, you can drive. And even though I am too young to remember this I hear that smkoing used to allowed in hospitals, maybe we can go back to the days of liberty and freedom when smoking in the waiting room was a God given right. I agree a right to smoke should supercede the rights of the majority who dont dont smoke. That is liberty. while we are at it, screw the gub'ment and their pesky speedlimits,drunk driving laws seatbelt and helmet requirements. We need liberty. I should be able to dive 95 in my unregistered car while snortin coke off the bare arse of hooker and its not yer business .”

“BM if you eat a cheeseburger my arteries dont clog. If you smoke and blow it in my face it affects my health. As I mentioned about my monthly meeting with the smokers...more often then not my throat is raw and sore for 24-48 hrs after the meeting. Its not from thier nachos and fries.”

“Should I be able to pile horsecrap from border to border of my property 10ft deep? Its my property and you have no right to infringe upon it.”

“Good point, birch

I believe you used to be able to smoke in college class rooms.

Don't forget buses.

Unregistered? Why have it inspected?

And if a pregnant women in my bar wants a drink, why shouldn't i be allowed to serve her?”

“Why shouldn't I be allowed to do 95 in a school zone.”

“I really like williams, I have read lots of his stuff (op-ed etc) and agree about 95% but masking smokers gripes as liberty is simply nonsense.

You should give the mommy to be a double, a pack of Luckies and an eight ball of coke.
last edited: 12/09/05 10:57:03 AM”

“This gets back to the saying "your freedom ends where my nose begins" smoke crosses that line.”

“My point is that we have many laws that the overwhelming majority support that infringe on everyones freedoms to some extent, even the people who are against smoking bans support these types of infringements on peoples rights. The fact that there is a noise ordinance doesn’t ban me from running my chain saw. It only tells me that I can’t do it at certain times. It’s the same thing with smoking bans, which aren’t banning smoking. People are free to smoke as much as they want they just can’t do it wherever they want.
last edited: 12/09/05 11:12:14 AM”

“i wonder how many lawsuits there have been, and would be in the future, against restaurants due to second-hand-smoke effects on employees or customers? and how the lawsuits affects the government? i would say that, after all the lawsuits against Big Tobacco, there would be a crapload of second-hand-smoke-related lawsuits waiting to happen. wouldn't it makes sense for the government to ban smoking in restaurants & bars just for that reason?

btw, i think putting other people's health at risk intentionally and for no good reason, like exposing them to second-hand smoke, is the rudest thing ever. how could anyone possibly think being able to smoke whenever they want to is important enough to put everyone else's health at risk?”

“I wouldn't have a problem with smoking on airplanes, as long as there wer non-smoking flights for me. I think there should be, for those real long flights.

We have plenty of non smoking restaurants and bars where I live. Let the market decide. I don't want to pay taxes to be babysat.

Helmet laws and seat belt laws are some of the worst legislation ever concieved, IMO.”

“Birch, who said anything about allowing smoker to smoke on airplane and restaurants? This has absolutly nothing to do with the right of someone to smoke, which I have no problem with at all. This is the right of an owner of a piece of property to allow people on his property the right to smoke or not to smoke. All Williams and I want is the right of the owner of the airplane or restaurant to make that decision on if you are allowed to smoke there. I prefer non-smoking establishments myself, but I would prefer for the owner of the restaurant to make the decision not the government telling him he has to make it non-smoking.

“Should I be able to pile horsecrap from border to border of my property 10ft deep? Its my property and you have no right to infringe upon it.

You have every right to as long as the pile of horse crap doesn't in any way harm your neighbors.

As for being born into poverty I do not accept that as an excuse not to be able to do whatever you want to in this world. My parents were well below the "poverty" line when I was growing up and I had to work darned hard so I didn't have to wake up at 5am in the 15 degree weather to get to the job site any more.”

“You could always quit and move to Florida. It does not get down to 15 in my area of town.”

“Yes, DDX. All poor people are just Lazy #&%!$s.

Because all people are alike so if some can climb out of poverty than all can.

I want to be a billionare but I'm too lazy.”

“Fuego! Fuego! Or is this a non-fire thread?

;)”

“"You have every right to as long as the pile of horse crap doesn't in any way harm your neighbors"

Who decides?....Government and health agencies....

I would dare say that 99% of the medical community believes 2nd hand smoke is dangerous, so in turn regulation is appropriate. Not to spare smokers their stupidy but those whom they endanger.

I wonder how many folks were saved by seatbelts and other bad legislation?

Deore, a 6year born into poverty cant really change their life excpet maybe eat their neighbors trash when they get hungry. Course they could just die already and stop being a burden too.”

“I agree with DDX.

birch, if you take somebody for a ride in your car, you should have the right to allow them to smoke if they want. Same thing goes if you charge them. Same thing goes if you fly them around and charge them.

Your analogies are ignoring that people can choose to not fly. Polluters should be limited to polluting somebody else's property, but we're not talking about somebody else's property here. We're talking about privately owned transportation.”

“My car is not a public meeting place. A restaurant is. Even though its privately owned its still considered by law to be public.

People should be able to shoot heroine and smoke crack in a restuarant then.”

“But shooting heroine and smoking crack are illegal no matter where you do it. Smoking is not.

Why do you think it's ok for the government to tell you what legal activities are allowed on your private property?”

“Why do you think its okay for the government to tell you what you can do to your own body?

You cant have it both ways.”