Only in Amerika - Chapter 5

“This is from the New Your Times Op/Ed page. You may not be able to access the url unless you register with the paper. That’s not a problem unless you don’t like giving your life history and income data to people you don’t even know. (Hint: FAKE IT) Here’s the web url.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/24/opinion/24SAFI.html?ex=1010262453&ei=1&en=7d34%20ff5b348d0c3bDecember 24, 2001

Threat of National ID By William Safire

WASHINGTON -- A device is now available to help pet owners find lost animals. It's a little chip implanted under the skin in the back of the neck; any animal shelter can quickly scan lost dogs or cats and pick up the address of the worried owner.
That's a good side of identification technology. There's a bad side: fear of terrorism has placed Americans in danger of trading our "right to be let alone" for the false sense of security of a national identification card.
All of us are willing to give up some of our personal privacy in return for greater safety. That's why we gladly suffer the pat-downs and "wanding" at airports, and show a local photo ID before boarding. Such precautions contribute to our peace of mind.
However, the fear of terror attack is being exploited by law enforcement sweeping for suspects as well as by commercial marketers seeking prospects. It has emboldened the zealots of intrusion to press for the holy grail of snoopery — a mandatory national ID.
Police unconcerned with the sanctity of an individual's home have already developed heat sensors to let them look inside people's houses. The federal "Carnivore" surveillance system feeds on your meatiest e- mail. Think you can encrypt your way to privacy? The Justice Department is proud of its new "Magic Lantern": all attempts by computer owners to encode their messages can now be overwhelmed by an electronic bug the F.B.I. can plant on your keyboard to read every stroke.
But in the dreams of Big Brother and his cousin, Big Marketing, nothing can compare to forcing every person in the United States — under penalty of law — to carry what the totalitarians used to call "papers."
The plastic card would not merely show a photograph, signature and address, as driver's licenses do. That's only the beginning. In time, and with exquisite refinements, the card would contain not only a fingerprint, description of DNA and the details of your eye's iris, but a host of other information about you.
Hospitals would say: How about a chip providing a complete medical history in case of emergencies? Merchants would add a chip for credit rating, bank accounts and product preferences, while divorced spouses would lobby for a rundown of net assets and yearly expenditures. Politicians would like to know voting records and political affiliation. Cops, of course, would insist on a record of arrests, speeding tickets, E-Z pass auto movements and links to suspicious Web sites and associates.
All this information and more is being collected already. With a national ID system, however, it can all be centered in a single dossier, even pressed on a single card — with a copy of that card in a national databank, supposedly confidential but available to any imaginative hacker.
What about us libertarian misfits who take the trouble to try to "opt out"? We will not be able to travel, or buy on credit, or participate in tomorrow's normal life. Soon enough, police as well as employers will consider those who resist full disclosure of their financial, academic, medical, religious, social and political affiliations to be suspect.
The universal use and likely abuse of the national ID — a discredit card — will trigger questions like: When did you begin subscribing to these publications and why were you visiting that spicy or seditious Web site? Why are you afraid to show us your papers on demand? Why are you paying cash? What do you have to hide?
Today's diatribe will be scorned as alarmist by the same security-mongers who shrugged off our attorney general's attempt to abolish habeas corpus (which libertarian protests and the Bush administration's sober second thoughts seem to be aborting). But the lust to take advantage of the public's fear of terrorist penetration by penetrating everyone's private lives — this time including the lives of U.S. citizens protected by the Fourth Amendment — is gaining popularity.
Beware: It is not just an efficient little card to speed you though lines faster or to buy you sure-fire protection from suicide bombers. A national ID card would be a ticket to the loss of much of your personal freedom. Its size could then be reduced for implantation under the skin in the back of your neck.”

“merry christmas to you, too.”

“And a happy new year”

“SH, give it a rest for Christmas at least.”

“Who cares.”

“you bloody damm well better care about this little development...
this could be an ultimate civil rights intrusion as data compression technology improves ..we've had the pet id chips for years, now the next stage is a permanent id implant for anyone that the demonocrats don't like... clinton, schumer,and fienstien are drooling at the uses they imagine for this...if hillary gets elected in 2004 ,this technology will be forced on us so fast it won't be funny... just think ,everyone who they don't like will be trackable anywhere...”

“I would like to see them try that I me.....Now that would be a joke......

Bring it.....”

“Ohhh I had a misspell there that should be "on"insted of "I"

Sorry......”

“haiku please dont encourage SH, he is a very troubled boy.

BTW the dog chip( called identi-pet) costs over $300 per dog. Multiply that by some 270 million US citizens and thats...well thats a lot of loot. I think that there are many more dangerous issues (revolving around privacy) than getting a chip implanted in your @ssneck.”

“What a load of Sh#t.....”

“"BTW the dog chip( called identi-pet) costs over $300 per dog."

Are there different chips? My little kitty Stompy came with a chip from the pound already installed and all I have to do is send in $15 and my personal info.

My personal view is that this is more "number of the Beast/Big Brother" scare tactics.”

““What luck for rulers, that men do not think.”

Adolf Hitler

Isn't that a nice quote? Just thought you might like it. IMHO it seems appropriate for the times.

Now to the subject at hand. When people like William Safire start writing Op/Eds on this sort of stuff you'd better start re-evaluating the situation. I didn't get this over at one of the kook "black helicopter" sites you guys are always accusing me of visiting. This came from the New York Times.

One thing I'd like to point out is that if we don't get national identity cards it won't be because patriots like Birch and Co. did any complaining. They'll be chewing their cuds in blissful ignorance the whole time this fight plays out.”

“Nigal, $15...no doubt. Our vet mentioned it to us and quoted $300. Thats one h@lluva profit.

SH, I am sure that all your posts here will have such a long term effect. As a matter of fact I bet those in the Justice Dept and Attorney Generals office are reading this thread right now...I can here em.

Ashcroft" D@mn, that Solitary Hiker figured us out. Time to change plans. Foiled again.


As I said SH, I prolly agree with you more than disagree. I just really doubt the effectiveness of your tactics. It may be more persuasive to write the editors of your local paper and congressmen/senator. Perhaps start a grassroots organization,maybe get involved in a local civic organization, perhaps local government...

But i reckon you wont. That is work, whereas now you just cut/paste articles on a frickin backpacking message board. A very SAFE and LAZY way to voice "your" (again I use your very losely). Plus if you do all the name calling you love, no one would really take you seriously.

Do you honestly think that this forum (trailtalk) is going to be the frontline in stopping an all encroaching federal government?


I know that you love to feel like you are really "tuned" in to what is going on. Its swell to feel like a one man army. But your tactics undercut any shred of crediblity which you so tenuosly grasp.”

“"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves."

William Pitt, 1783

Ahhh....it just seems to be a day for quotes. I really like that one. It seems so appropriate.

haiku rhymer,
If you think this is a Democrat thing you're only 50 percent wrong. This is a big government thing. It's all about making us feel warm and fuzzy and safe from the terrorists.

Now seeing how the government is roughly 50 percent Democrat and 50 percent Republican I think there is blame enough to go around for both political parties. As I recall all but one Congressman (a Democrat from Wisconsin) voted for it.

The trouble with most legislation is that it starts out for one purpose and finds up being used for an entirely different purpose.
Reichs Marshall Ashkroft put together the PATRIOT Act because it was necessary to save us from the terrorists. The Republicans will use it to go after terrorists (and their enemies.) When the Democrats come to power they will twist the law to suit their needs.

One thing you can be sure of, the American people will be the losers. And to be honest, until they start paying attention to what is going on, they deserve it.”

“I have one of those "chips" now, its called my EZ PASS and million of other drivers have them too all over the US(fastpass etc). By June 2002 the "star wars" system wll be on-line and there will be a huge penalty for speeding.”

“Birch my man,
Why start a grassroots movement at home when my market is anyone and everyone reading this post from all over the frigging internet? You think way too small.

BTY, thanks for all your posts. You're the perfect straight man for this act. I can always count on you to scan over my cut n' paste jobs and then totally miss the writer's point. Sometimes I would swear you only read the first and last paragraph of each one. Nevertheless, keep posting. You are a valued asset.”

“SH,You seriously believe that when someone finds this site,then TT then begins to browse the threads,then finds your cut/pastes that they will suddenly be inspired? Honestly? If so that person is far more sheep like than those who you call sheeple. If someone stumbles across your "stuff" and takes it as truth or any other "stuff" without some homework or thought,that individual is what would be called a sheep. Please deflate your ego,you really arent making a difference.You are but one insignificant person as we all are.

The founding Fathers, or any other thinker,radical or world changer didnt spend their days quoting others and aclling them names badgering them with petty insults,they wrote,they gave speeches,they persuaded people with their passion and the truth of what they said was " self-evident".

The sad part is that you truly believe that you are making a difference. With your motivation you probably could,if you got away from you silly tactics.

I dont care if you keep posting this stuff. I am starting to enjoy these exchanges. I have a looooong break from work and this has proven to be fun. Thank you for the Christmas gift..

BTW If I am the "straight man" in this little skit we are performing then you must be the chubby, goofy little side kick who everyone is really laughing at.”

“Again it is worth noting(again and again and again) that I am NOT disputing (in some cases) the stuff you cut/paste.Its your self-righteous attitude that professes that all who dont agree with you are "sheeple,sheep or ignorati". You act as though you are the final arbitor (SP?) of thought and truth. Anyone who claims to be that person (be they GWB,Ashcroft,Clinton,Feinstein,Schumer or you) definetely causes me to be skeptical of what they say.”

“SH, perhaps I can ask you some questions?

1) When have I stated that I support the counter to what your articles state?

2) have I called for the giving up of any type of liberty for securities sake?

3) when did I come out in support of the PATRIOT act?

4) when have I come out in support of any legislation pertaining to this "war" etc...?

5) when have I supported a National ID card?

My point in these questions is simple,To illustrate the fact that you are alienating those who would agree with many of your beliefs. Frankly you aren't a very good spokesman for the issues you support.”

“LOL!! Birch ..... take a breather.
Count to ten or something. I don't want you to have a coronary over this. The cause needs you.”

“solitary, typing your OWN opinions is not as hard as you seem to think it is.

then again, when you never do it, it may seem like it could cause a heart attack.”

“So you guys are the Abbott & Costello of Trail Talk?

Don't have a canary!”

“headsup people.the reason i posted on this with such vehemance is cause a friend of mine who is one of the worlds best investment counselars sent me me a copy of the article @ 3:20 am..in other words invest in this 'cause its going to go out of sight... he hasn't been wrong yet...”

“Here ya go.”

“SH..that's it? A semi-humorous comment? No rebuttal? No response to questions? And I thought you were a (to use your words ) a "meat and potatoes" kinda guy???

Regarding my heart...my resting pulse rate is in the low 70's, it never went up a single beat while I posted. THINKING doesn't cause a heartattack, try it sometime you'll see.

Sorry that all those words,questions and thoughts created by yours truly caused you to have a brain fart.

You are all bark and no bite!”

“Birch,
This thread is not about you. I don't have to answer your five lame ass questions about what you are for or against. My observations of you is that you miss the quoted writer's point about 95 percent of the time. You're too busy telling me how people would respect me more if I wrote down my own opinions or you go off and find some BS site like Jeff Cohen's F.A.I.R. (if ever there was an Israeli fifth columnist!) to do your smearing for you. Your biggest problem is you like to argue and you love getting the last word in. Well you're in luck. I love keeping these threads near the top of the heap and you're a big help.”

“"Your biggest problem is you like to argue and you love getting the last word in."

LOL!!!!”

“SH, If you will recall i clearly stated that i was NOT a fan of F.A.I.R. I used it to illustrate that one can find a source for anything. Why do I have to repeat this stuff for you SH?

SH other than your plastic vomit thread,when SPECIFICALLY have I even commented on the content of you cut/pastes.Good luck!

SH, I really didnt expect you to answer the questions. That isnt your style. You like to just post crap then when confronted about it you bail and start another thread.If you need proof just go to EVERY thread you have posted and see how they end.

You are correct. I do love to argue. Obviously you dont,you have shown such restraint and decorum. You quickly admit fault and do not try to fuel any fires. I think you oughtta change your name to "humble hiker".

I wont hold my breath for a response. You'll prolly just start another thread. Its your M.O. to bail.”

“SH, I know this thread isnt about me. Its about your INCREDIBLY LARGE EGO . Forgive me for raining on your parade,pissing in your punch...etc...etc...”

“ROTFLMAO!......... Oh this is sweet. LOL!...Birch... I can always count on you to come through for me. But alas, this thread is just about finished. I'll find some more good stuff for tomorrow. See you then.”

“SH, PLEASE stick to cutting/pasting. Your self written posts are a mile wide and 1/16th an inch thick.”

“i came looking for meat and potatoes, but all i found was plastic vomit.”

“Yeah Rad, I posted a link to some up-to-date, verifiable info on the subject at hand (or so I thought)... but everybody's too busy #&%!$in'.”

“Tilt,
I checked out your post. There's another one on the Yahoo boards that is very similar. Sounds like a great way to make a lot of money in the stock market.

But then again, Marx or Lenin did say something about how the greedy capatalists would sell the rope for their own hangings.

Invest wisely!”

“One should always invest in an ethical manner.”

“I read your link too Tilt. The pissing and moaning was more fun though.

New Jersey made a sales pitch to us a couple of years back to make our drivers licenses 'smart'. They were to act as our credit cards, contain medical data, yada, yada, yada... It wasn't well recieved due to privacy and hacking concerns and the proposal died quickly.

I for one, would resist such an idea. But of course I said the same thing when EZPass first came out.”

“The State Gov't in Georgia floated the idea of collecting drivers' fingerprints, but it fizzled in a big way after it became known that South Carolina had sold drivers' licence info to a company that cleared checques for various businesses.”

“"we shall hang the last capitalist with the rope he (just) sold us "
(I can find date of quote if necessary)”

“LOL....:)”

“Not “amerika” but this is pretty scary nonetheless. I understand that surveillance cameras on street corners are common in Great Britain and abuse of the system is rampant. Talk about letting the camel’s nose into the tent. We love you Big Brother.


Drivers face road charge by satellite

Monthly bills for motorists in transport revolution

Joanna Walters, transport editor
Sunday February 24, 2002
The Observer

All cars will be fitted with a 'big brother' satellite tracking meter to charge drivers up to 45p a mile for every journey taken under radical plans to slash congestion on British roads.

The scheme, proposed by the Government's independent transport advisers, would see drivers handed monthly bills charging them for every single journey.

In a landmark report to be given to Ministers tomorrow, the Commission for Integrated Transport will recommend using existing Global Positioning System satellites to track vehicles via electronic 'black boxes' fixed to the dashboard of all vehicles.

The information recording the movements of motorists would be beamed back to computers at the various highway authorities or to a private company contracted to the Government - but with strict controls to protect privacy.

Prices would be set and adjusted periodically according to levels of congestion and could range from 45p a mile per car for central London in the rush hour to a penny a mile on rural roads. The average weekday charge would be 3.5p per mile on motorways and 4.3p a mile on other roads, with travel free off-peak and on quiet roads.

Tomorrow the commission will propose universal road pricing and tell Ministers that such a scheme could cut traffic levels by 5 per cent and almost halve congestion within 10 years.

In its report, the commission will warn that even huge improvements to train services and bus routes and massive road-building projects would not be enough to clear Britain's choked roads.

Professor David Begg, the commission chairman, told The Observer: 'We have the worst traffic jams in Europe. Without congestion charging we are not going to solve it - we can never road-build our way out of this or provide enough public transport.'

Begg said that even doubling the capacity of Britain's train, tram and bus network - a near-impossible task - would only absorb five years' worth of traffic growth before the roads became gridlocked again.

The report will recommend scrapping vehicle excise duty - the annual road tax disc - and reducing fuel duty by between 2p and 12p a litre in return for the launch of road pricing. It wants the Government to make motoring taxes fairer by linking them to congestion rather than car ownership or flat-rate fuel duty, which penalises rural motorists.

Drivers and hauliers who insist on commuting or delivering in the rush hour and using motorways at the busiest times would end up paying hundreds of pounds in additional costs, while others would save money.

The Government is also set to launch road-pricing for all lorries driving in Britain within two years. Trucks will be charged on the basis of the distance they travel, weight and emissions, with cleaner-engined vehicles paying less.

A senior source familiar with the proposals said the scheme was a 'Trojan horse' for universal road pricing, and if it proved successful for heavy goods vehicles it could be extended to cars by 2010.

Despite a denial by the Department of Transport, Local Government and the Regions, the source said: 'This is being driven by the Treasury, not Transport.

Chancellor Gordon Brown can see what congestion is doing to efficiency in commerce and industry and every time he meets business leaders they bang on about it.'

The Government is unlikely to welcome Begg's report at such a sensitive time. Ministers, and Transport Secretary Stephen Byers in particular, are under fire for the collapse of Railtrack and the sell-off of air traffic control, as well as failing to solve the wider transport crisis.

The motoring lobby is likely to accuse the Government of being anti-car if it supports the report.

But Begg has already warned that, without serious moves to persuade motorists to leave their cars at home, the Government will not even achieve its own modest target of reducing national congestion by 6 per cent in 2010.

London Mayor Ken Livingstone is expected to announce this week that he is going ahead with congestion charging for London in 2003 at £5 a day for cars. Vehicles will be tracked via roadside beacons and gantries that display prices - with satellite technology likely to be used at a later date.

http://www.observer.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,656108,00.html " target="_blank">Link to story”

“Now if they threw in a free subscription to the XM radio I'd be the first one on board!

brits never were too big on liberties, were they?”

“This is the kind of thing that our government uses to track the whereabouts of the vehicles of criminals. Next they will install them on every citizen's car and make everyone a suspect in whatever crime-de-jour is popular that particular day, week, month.

And the way the Hillary and/or
Dubya crowd pulls it off will be to tell us how necessary it is. It will be for our safety or the ecology.

Ahhhhh. I feel so much safer now just thinking of the ways my government is trying to shelter me from harm's way.”

“As oposed to the way Pat would do it. Then it would only be spiks wops, coons, kikes, krauts, polelocks, ruskies, chinks, frogs, ragheads and slopeheads hwo'd have to have the tracking technology installed to keep track of them.

It's a joke guys! I know! I know! I'll get back to my "I love My New Gore Tex Panties" thread.

"Ignore the man behind the curtain!"”

“politics 101 - create the problem to support the desired "solution"”

“Nigal-
What about Micks?

Is there a "Hillary Crowd".

How do I join?”

“The Hillary crowd? It's called the American Humane Society.”