dogs on the trail?

“manuka, I sure hope you don't go around shooting people who you think are upset at you. What a paranoid freaking joke. If this murderer is that paranoid and skittish and quick to pull the trigger, he shouldn't be carrying a gun in the first place. I'm pro-gun-ownership and all, but this is ridiculous when someone uses the power of death so quickly merely while hiking on a public trail. You freaks who are so paranoid of dogs, go freaking hike in National Parks or something where the government has you safely cuddled and protected from anything icky. They don't allow guns in national parks because freaks like this guy would shoot every bear, mountain lion, and moose that looked at him wrong. OoOOoo, I'm scared of critters, bang bang. OooOOoo, this guy looks upset, I think I'll shoot him three times and kill him. That'll teach him to be upset at me. I'm sure this murderer would shoot an aggressive squirrel if it came his way. Go ahead, manuka, shoot me and my dogs if you feel it necessary to make your point. It's freaks like this that make me wanna turn liberal on the gun issue. If handguns were still allowed freely in public places like restaurants, this is the kind of paranoid guy who would shoot a fat lady who just screamed because she spilled hot coffee on her lap and he thought she was out to kill him. Moral of the story... IF YOU COME ACROSS UNLEASHED DOGS IN THE BACKCOUNTRY AND THE OWNER IS SHOWING SIGNS OF BEING UPSET WHEN YOU SHOOT AT HIS DOGS, GO AHEAD AND SHOOT HIM MULTIPLE TIMES UNTIL YOU'RE SURE HE IS DEAD. It's cool.”

“I would shoot him too.

Shot 1, he is still coming, shot 2, he is still coming, shot 3.

If you are out anywhere and a person with a gun fires a warning shot and calls on you to stop and you do not, expect to get shot.

I would guess that after the shot, the dogs stopped which is why they did not get shot. The person did not, and did get shot."
manuka
08:52:19 AM
05/24/04


Manuka, are you that much of a freaking slimey little weakling, that you feel you would have to shoot someone rather than get bit by a dog or get in a fistfight?

Pu$$y.”

“Roseymonster - there are many instances of people being attacked by dogs.

Hey dog bites hurt!!!! This is very true, I know it for a fact :)”

“Buck, your blindness to any possible fault by a dog was exactly the mindset that got this guy killed.

That Fish did fire a warning shot indicates that he is not a trigger happy idiot. He also did not try to hide, he imediately called police/sheriff to report his actions. But a Grand Jury will also examine the evidence and determine if the Sheriff was correct. No cover up buddy system here in the Sheriffs office, unless Fish also knows everyone likely to be called up for Grand Jury duty.

and Buck, people DO get attacked by mountain lions, people DO get attacked by dogs, people DO get attacked by other people.

How I deal with a threat depends on the situation. Solo, I choose distance, the legal term for this is retreat. Phaedrus would probably call it chicken or cowardice, but I will rather run than fight.

If I am with others where I have custody such as my family, or any of the dozens of boy or girl scouts who have been trusted to my care I will do what I think is necessary in any situation to protect them.
In the past that has meant hiking to the next camp spot, and on at least one occasion it did mean staying awake all night throwing rocks to keep a black bear out of camp, camp included a number of Scouts. Yes there have been people threats on at least 4 occasions and I have still managed to not shoot anyone even when armed.
I have carried (with a permit) for a number of years without shooting anyone or anything. I prefer that no one knows that I am armed as it really is a last resort.

I am a State firearms safety instructor and have been for over 12 years, I teach others when to shoot, and when not to.

and Phaedrus I would love to see you in your fist fight when some 43 year old beats the crap out of you when you are retired at 57 and taking a walk in the woods. Even better when that person has 3 large dogs to assist.”

“and Phaedrus I would love to see you in your fist fight when some 43 year old beats the crap out of you when you are retired at 57 and taking a walk in the woods. Even better when that person has 3 large dogs to assist."
manuka
01:08:04 PM
05/26/04

I didn't say win a fistfight. Anyway, I think you've made it abundantly clear that you are ruled by your fear. Coward.”

“Sorry, manuka, I have zippo respect for your quick-to-shoot mentality. If you are defending a paranoid murderer who shot a hiker three freaking times and killed him because he was apparently upset that a shot was fired at one of his dogs, that is sad and I'm very sorry to hear you are instructed people in the use of firearms. That is extremely sad for me to hear. People can get upset at each other and have differences without one freaking coward pulling a gun and shooting the other person multiple times. This hiker was not a killer, he was a guy who loved dogs and loved the mountains. It's unfortunate he came across a murderer who hates dogs so much he's willing to shoot the dog's owner while innocently strolling on a trail. If this paranoid freak didn't have a gun, you'd simply have one guy who was pissed off that he encountered unleashed dogs on the trail and both guys would still be alive and well. This murderer should be put away for life. Instead, we have guys like you defending this crap and teaching others it's okay to shoot in this situation.”

“There is something VERY wrong with this story....
Reason: The 10mm is a very pwerful round!!! 3 rounds!!! direct hits to the chest!!! The gunman must have rapid fired on the victim. The first round would of knocked the victim back let alone 2 more. Also, 3 rapid fire shots all in the chest, the victim must of been close to him. I'm betting they had a verbal arguement face to face and the gunman got pissed and blasted the victim....No witness' so the only story, is that of the gunman. Very sad...”

“People who feel the need to always carry guns are paranoid freaks with low self esteem and feel like they need to one-up other people with the power of death at their fingertips. They are insecure paranoid cowards. And this comes from an ardent supporter of gun ownership rights. People aren't out to kill you, manuka. They aren't. And if YOU personally think they might be, it's okay to kill them just in case. I practically live in the wilderness full of bears and mountain lions and other hikers and I never leash my dogs and I have had no problem whatsoever. Please let me know when and where you and your students will be hiking and I'll be sure to be hiking in the next state. If not, feel free to shoot me.”

“Buck, enough with the "shot multiple times" b.s. I and many others have been trained to shoot twice at the center of mass and once to the head. there's some controversy as to whether you should re-assess after the 2 com shots, but in the heat of the moment, I'm not surprised at all that 3 shots were fired, nor would I call it excessive.

What I don't understand is why this guy didn't at least try to run away first. I'd at least *try* to get away from a psycho before firing at him. Then again, they say that a determined person can close 20 feet in about a second. That doesn't give you much time to turn tail and run and still have time to turn around and re-assess.

Manuka could very well be right, IMO.”

“The obvious choice to those of us with common sense is not to pull the gun until you've been bit. Yeah, it means taking a chance that these dogs coming around the bend in the trail might bite you, but it also means a bit of gun owner responsibility. If you're so dead set afraid of dogs knocking you down and ripping out your throat (or whatever), the gun isn't the answer. Therapy is.”

“As far as I'm concerned, guns have no place in the backcountry unless being used for hunting.”

“It depends. If there's 3 big dogs snarling and barking and charging at me, my first reaction would be to climb the nearest tree (in fact I remember being called a coward because I chose a tree instead of chancing the dogs or pulling out my pistol). If that option wasn't available, you bet I'd have my gun out. 3 big charging dogs = potentially lethal threat.”

“Mutt, if you're talking about a terrorist or an intruder in your home, fine, if you're talking about someone taking a stroll on a public trail to enjoy the mountains, and you shoot him three friggin' times because he's upset you took a shot at his dogs, that's absurdly paranoid. If someone took a shot at my dogs, I'd be rather riled up to. You don't expect close-up range gunshots while merely hiking in the mountains. Dogs are like family members. If this guy didn't have a gun, both would be alive in fine. One paranoid freak had a gun so one guy was shot multiple times (not b.s., just the facts) and killed. This unarmed hiker wasn't out to kill anyone. He was hiking with his dogs. I'm sure the dog owner would've called back his dogs if they were acting aggressive in any way, no worries. Instead, POW POW POW!, he gets killed. "Honey, I went out hiking today and shot and killed another hiker, he really loved his dogs and was upset I fired bullets towards them so I shot him a few times and killed him. I stopped by and told the police what happened. Hey, what's for dinner?"”

“The threat was probably very real as the dog person was 24 years younger than the person he was attacking (43 yr old Kuenzli, 57 yr old Fish).


Now I understand your belief in trickle-down economics, anyway, math-genius.”

“Actually, snafu, while the 10mm is a powerful round, it would not have "knocked the victim back." Other than that, I agree with your post. Three rounds center mass would indicate they were fairly close or the shooter was an above average marksman, substantially above average. I'm betting that they were up close, like you said, although one shot won't always stop a person.
Buck, I usually agree with your posts, but it's a hasty generalization to say that people who carry guns all the time are cowards and freaks. Many people are, they're these "end-game scenario" types, but there are level headed people who carry all the time as well. Many respected firearms instructors carry 24/7 and are as normal as anyone else. As with anything else, it's the few who give the many a bad name. In this case, having only read everyone's comments, it sounds like the guy was in the wrong to shoot. If a situation is such that you can afford to fire a warning shot, I don't see where the threat is great enough to actually shoot someone. Either your life is in danger and you have to shoot someone, or it's not in danger and you can resort to less lethal alternatives. Guns are not meant to be used as attention getters.”

“It depends. If there's 3 big dogs snarling and barking and charging at me, my first reaction would be to climb the nearest tree (in fact I remember being called a coward because I chose a tree instead of chancing the dogs or pulling out my pistol). If that option wasn't available, you bet I'd have my gun out. 3 big charging dogs = potentially lethal threat."
Mutt
01:43:43 PM
05/26/04

I wouldn't climb a tree until I was bit either.

Dogs just aren't as dangerous to a fully grown man as you're trying to make them out to be.”

“Mutt, if you feel seriously endangered by dogs, shoot and wound the dogs. It ain't that tough to do. Sure, the dog owner would be upset, but he won't kill you, believe me. If you still feel the dog owner wants to kill you (ya right), shoot him in the leg or something and run and get the police. You don't need to shoot a hiker three times. If you can't outrun a hiker shot in the leg, then you probably shouldn't be in the woods in the first place. If you feel paranoid or threatened in the wilderness, then bearspray is more effective than a bullet and everyone lives.”

“ If a situation is such that you can afford to fire a warning shot, I don't see where the threat is great enough to actually shoot someone. Either your life is in danger and you have to shoot someone, or it's not in danger and you can resort to less lethal alternatives. Guns are not meant to be used as attention getters."
StickmanWalking
01:48:14 PM
05/26/04

I agree 100%.”

“I'm not sure I see the wisdom in waiting until you're bit before you take any action.”

“Hi Stickman! Can you give me one good reason to carry a firearm while backpacking in the wilderness in the lower 48 states?”

“I'm not sure I see the wisdom in waiting until you're bit before you take any action

I agree 100%. I've always heard that you shouldn't yell or scream at a threatening dog. It seems to me, out in the woods, a 10mm round spraying dirt in its face is a good method of deterrence.”

“"I'm not sure I see the wisdom in waiting until you're bit before you take any action."
StickmanWalking
01:52:45 PM
05/26/04

Not before taking action. I would have yelled at the dogs or called out to the owner if I felt threatened. There's no way I would be drawing a gun, though, unless I was positive it was a life and death situation.

As for climbing the tree or running, I will concede those options if confronting the dogs didn't work.”

“shoot him in the leg or something

Well, this absurdity blows your credibility, Buck. I hope you never carry for self-defense purposes.”

“More than anything else, I just can't see conceding dominance to the dogs.

I've been attacked by a dog once, and while it ripped the hell out of my peacoat, I got the better of the animal, and the owner (whom I knew) replaced my coat for me. In the perhaps thousands of encounters I've had with dogs on the trail, I've never once felt afraid of an unfriendly dog. I just speak to them and let them see I'm not afraid. That usually ends the encounter right away.

A vast majority of the time, though, dogs not on leashes are friendly (sometimes too friendly), and I don't mind them at all.”

“or called out to the owner

And you think this would work? At the rate a charging dog is going, you think there would be time to yell at the owner and the owner yell at his dogs before they reached you? Maybe - if the dogs were a long way off, but then better options would probably be available.”

“Buck, this "shoot to wound" bs is pure Hollywood. In high stress situations you can't aim at a relatively small moving target such as a leg. A gun is for killing, not wounding, that's why police and most anyone else I ever heard of are taught to shoot at the largest target with the greatest chance of stopping the threat--center of mass, the chest, torso, whatever you want to call it. You shoot to "stop the threat" in the quickest manner possible, and that sometimes, many times, involves more than one shot. Carrying a gun is a huge responsibility, and like I said before, should only be used when someone's life is in danger. If you feel threatened by someone but not enough to feel like he's going to kill you, hit him in the leg with a stick or pepper spray him or something. Police follow what's called a force continuum, they don't just automatically resort to gunplay, and it would do well for others to follow this example if they plan on exercising their second amendment rights. You can't start carrying a gun and automatically be an expert. You have to have substantial training in legal matters, recognizing potentially dangerous situations, how to defuse them, what course of action is appropriate if it isn't "defusable", etc. In the end, when you use a gun, you better be right, but there's no majic shoot in the leg while leaping through the air to land in your foxhole.”

“And you think this would work? At the rate a charging dog is going, you think there would be time to yell at the owner and the owner yell at his dogs before they reached you? Maybe - if the dogs were a long way off, but then better options would probably be available."
Mutt
02:02:16 PM
05/26/04

Sure, but in the worst case scenario, you get bit and have to shoot a dog. Compared to the story above, this is minor.”

“Mutt, if wounding someone instead of killing them is absurd, so be it. I wouldn't have to worry about either because I don't carry a firearm when I'm hiking. If I'm hiking in Wyoming and Montana in grizzly country I'll carry bearspray, but that's it. I'm not afraid of anything or anyone out there. Other hikers simply aren't out to kill other hikers, even the ones with unleashed dogs.”

“in the worst case scenario, you get bit and have to shoot a dog

And that's where we differ. I won't let a dog bite me if I can help it. And that is certainly not cowardice as you would portray it.”

“And Buck no, I can't think of a good reason for carrying a firearm in the wilderness in the lower 48, nor did I propose that. Not the true wilderness where you're at least 5-10 miles from a trailhead. Some places where rednecks like to hang out and party that happen to be close to trailheads and parking, maybe, but the easiest course of action then is to avoid them. One of my points was that there are in fact well-adjusted people who carry guns all the time when out of the house.

Phaed, I agree with the sentiment that you have to show the dogs that you're not afraid. I'd guess that 99% of the time that is enough to deter them. However, if one is obviously threatening me, I'm not going to wait for it to bite me. If the sharp commands or waving the hands don't work, I'll have to consider the alternatives. I see now that's what you meant, I just missed it originally.”

“Mutt, if wounding someone instead of killing them is absurd, so be it

No, it's absurd because it's unrealistic. Stickmanwalking just gave an you excellent writeup on this. I suggest you read it.”

“And that's where we differ. I won't let a dog bite me if I can help it. And that is certainly not cowardice as you would portray it."
Mutt
02:08:23 PM
05/26/04


Cowardice in the instance of climbing a tree is too strong a word. Paranoia might be a better description, IMO. Having been bitten before, and having had many many encounters with unfriendly dogs (both on and off the trail), I just don't see how a resonable person could consider three dogs running down the trail, off leash, a serious threat.

Certainly, it is not a serious enough threat to draw a firearm!”

“Lots of gun owner responsibility but no dog owner responsibility.

A lot more insecure people get a big dog than a gun.
Almost all savage dogs are an extension of the owners need to feel powerful and intimidate others.

How about no uncontrolled dogs in the backcountry?

I know you are just baiting me Buck, but all your calm rational argument on the religious threads goes out the window when dogs are discussed. BTW I may be hiking in your area from early June until late November for the next six years.

Phaedrus, if faced with multiple dogs and one attacks, they all attack, they are pack animals. 3 large dogs attack, you have no chance, none. Run is the worst thing you can do when faced with aggressive dogs they want to take your legs from the rear. Always face the pack and try and get your back to a wall. Never heard of anyone ever outrunning a dog.
Best is to prevent an attack in the first place, by firing into the ground Fish did that, no person hurt, no dog hurt.
I certainly called it correctly when I said that you would describe my avoiding conflict as cowardice didn't I Phaedrus?
Do you talk to people like that all the time Phaedrus or is it just keyboard courage, I bet you have a little blaster buzzer in your car for road rage too.
You didn't say win a fistfight ??
How stupid is that, you get into fist fights you know you will lose.

Snafu29, not only 1 side of the story, there would be the evidence on the ground, presumably documented and presented to the Grand Jury. There would be both sets of footprints, you can tell if a person is walking or running by spacing and impression, blood would show where both people were when the shots were fired. They can reconstruct the scene, they have to every time they find just the victim in remote locations.”

“Stickman, I gotta disagree with you, but that's cool. If I have a gun, and I can see someone visibly upset (but not coming at me with a weapon or anything), such as this dog owner who is obviously merely riled up because someone just shot at his dogs, I can shoot something as big as a human leg. Sheesh, I used to do that with dart guns as a kid, much less now. Obviously the police or the military are shooting to kill. A dispute over dogs is not nearly the same thing. This is an absured reason to shoot someone multiple times in the chest. Absolutely absurd. If you can shoot someone three times in the chest, surely you can shoot someone in the ower extremities just the same, especially in a situation like this.”

“there's no majic shoot in the leg while leaping through the air to land in your foxhole."
StickmanWalking
02:02:34 PM
05/26/04

Not only did I choose an odd way to spell magic, I should have said there's no magic "shoot in the leg while leaping through the air to land in your foxhole" trick."
But I digress.”

“You'd get laughed out of any gun forum, Buck.”

“manuka, religious differences are fine, but killing hikers in the backcountry out of paranoia is something I can't joke about. And if you can't hit a leg with a bullet, but you can hit the chest three times in a row like clockwork, you need practice. You can practice on me if you'd like. I'll be hiking with unleashed dogs until I die.”

“Mutt, no worries, I don't frequent gun forums because I'm not paranoid of people or animals in the backcountry.”

“Phaedrus, if faced with multiple dogs and one attacks, they all attack, they are pack animals. 3 large dogs attack, you have no chance, none.

You're not going to convince me of that, simply because, in the instance I mentioned above, I was attacked by only one of two dogs that were in my neighbor's yard at the time. The second fled when I yelled. Second, if the dogs actually attack you and you have a firearm, your assertion that you have NO chance is insane.

Do you talk to people like that all the time Phaedrus or is it just keyboard courage, I bet you have a little blaster buzzer in your car for road rage too.
You didn't say win a fistfight ??
How stupid is that, you get into fist fights you know you will lose.


Well, first, if anyone I was dealing with in person was espousing shooting a guy in this situation, we'd be having this discussion in much the same manner as we are now. Second, if the person had the track record that you do with me, I'd be dealing with them exactly as I am with you now.

As for winning a fistfight - In this case, I might have overstepped on that. I doubt it ever would have come to a fistfight if the guy had never pulled the gun. After the gun is out, though, it's a different story.”

“I'm not paranoid of people

No, you're a blissninny. If you think you're invincible, you're also a damn fool, as well.”

“That is to say, that after you have made the horrible decision to draw the weapon, and the guy is coming at you, there's not a chance of letting it become a fistfight.”

“Mutt, without getting into specifics have you ever had to draw a gun on someone?”

“Stickman, I gotta disagree with you, but that's cool. If I have a gun, and I can see someone visibly upset (but not coming at me with a weapon or anything), such as this dog owner who is obviously merely riled up because someone just shot at his dogs, I can shoot something as big as a human leg.

And based on the laws in my state, you'd be charged with either Assualt 1st degree or Attempted Murder, because you have admitted that you "can see someone visibly upset (but not coming at me with a weapon or anything)" who "is obviously merely riled up..."
This goes back to the training and awareness I was trying to point out. As far as shooting someone in the leg, shooting more than once, etc., don't take my word for it. Read what the "experts" say.

Buck I'm not saying I agree with the guy shooting the other one in this particular case, I'm still too lazy to go back and read the story.”

“I've been in two situations where I would have, but that was before I owned a gun.

Buck likes to think the wilderness is perfectly safe, and maybe it is in his stomping grounds. But here in the 'zarks, one has to be mindful of the meth labs/addicts, and to a lesser extent those militant about growing weed. Then there's the "deliverance" factor. ;)”

“Yeah, actually we have a bit of that in northern cali, as well. Poppies grown well here.”

“Stickman, I realize you're not defending this guy, but allz I'm saying is that a confrontation like this, where a hiker is just upset that someone shot towards his dogs, is not a life and death situation, period. If the confrontation escalated because of the gunshot, no one still needs to die over it. And if the paranoid gun owner feels the need to eliminate this threat, it's not like a military or police situation with an army shooting guns at you and you dive for a foxhole and return fire and shoot to kill. This paranoid gunower, as a last resort, could've simply shot the guy in the legs. He wasn't shooting at him or anything, or coming at him with a knife or grenade, he was just probably yelling in confusion over why he shot towards his dogs. You don't need to shoot someone three times in the chest and kill him over this. That's my point. I am actually amazed that guys like manuka are actually defending this guy and training people in the responsibilty of gun ownership and saying this behavoir is fine and dandy. I know the guy hates unleashed dogs, but that doesn't mean they need to be shot. Geez.
Complete paranoia and feelings of inadequacies. I mean hey, you can't mess with me, I got a gun, bang bang you're dead, that'll learn to mess with me and my values. What a joke.”

“I think we agree that this could have been one of those cases where no one should have been shot. Now enjoy my picture of "Banjo Boy" Billy Redden.

And you shore got a purty mouth boy.”

“Coastal Northern California is supposed to be one of the most hazardous places to hike because of weed growers. I have yet to hear of people getting killed due to stumbling upon illegal drug operations. People don't get killed by other hikers, nor pot growers, nor unleashed dogs, and extremely rarely by wild animals. People get killed by paranoid hikers with guns though. I think most gun owners wouldn't dare rockclimb a face without a big fatty safety net underneath them. They hate risk and they hate anything out of their control and they perceive dangers that either don't exist, or they exaggerate them. Someone breaking into my home is a different story, bang bang. Encountering other hikers while backpacking or hiking, they ain't out to kill me.”

“Buck, you freaking liberal appeaser.”