dogs on the trail?

“I sound so liberal. :Þ”

“Hey, I’m all for dogs on the trail and I even let my Honey Dog stretch her legs on the trail off leash some (with shock collar on) but if something happens to your dogs off leash there is no one but yourself to blame. My guess is the guy shot the dogs and then defended himself from the upset owner.”

“I agree it's tragic.

I've been around/owned large dogs my whole life and am pretty sure I could kill one large dog bare-handed if I had too. Three large dogs? I don't want to find out. I don't like chows at all. I think the guy was certainly justified in firing the warning shot and it sounds like he waited until just before he was attacked.

Now add a pissed off stranger to the mix who won't stop even after a shot has been fired and he's been warned to stop? I guess he had every reason to fear for his life.

Moral of the story:

Leash your dogs and never charge someone who has a pistol trained on you.”

“Doesn't Micah post on this board? He's way overdue.”

“Whoa! Violin thinks it's justified? Whodathunkit.”

“Moral of the story:

Leash your dogs (or DIE) and never charge someone who has a pistol trained on you (yeah, there's that).”

“The punishment for unleashed dogs should certainly be death. No arguing, no wounding, just shoot the violater multiple times until they are certainly dead. That solves that problem. NEXT?”

“Anything I post here cannot be used against me on future dog, gun or hunting threads.

Oh... and nice attempt at getting drugs into the thread mutt.”

“Now if we can just work gay marriage, abortion, and politics into this thread we will have it all.”

“I would try to aviod a dog that was aggressive instead of shooting it, because I love animals, and I don't blame the dog, but the owner.

I had a dog enter my campsite and growl at me. I could have thrown something at it, but instead went to the dog's campsite and told the women there about the dog growling. They were suprised, but didn't seem to care much. I felt like throwing something at them.”

“Fish questioned why Kuenzli did not have the dogs restrained. He also criticized the Payson Humane Society, which lent the chow-mix and shepherd-mix dogs to Kuenzli, a volunteer at their shelter.

The Payson shelter knew the chow-mix was dangerous, Fish said.

Larry Stubbs, Payson Humane Society president, disputes that, saying the shelter euthanizes any dog that exhibits vicious behavior.

However, Detective George Ratliff of the Gila County Sheriff's Office in Payson, said he and his partner, Brian Havey, encountered the same chow at a home in Pine.

Ratliff said that the dog bit him on the back of the leg and that he pulled his weapon to shoot the dog before the owner finally restrained it.

Fish said he was leery of vicious dogs after his 12-year-old daughter was bitten on the leg by a neighbor's dog about two weeks before the shooting.

______________________
A dog with a known history of agressive behaviour with no leash in a public place
_____________________

Payson humane society caught in a lie.”

“I snuck into a gun forum or two and found threads about this story. A majority of the posters, hardly what you would label as progressives, opined that the shooter was not justified in this instance. To quote one, "The dogs were threatening him so he shot their owner?"”

“I think it is pretty hokey too, but cannot resist baiting the anti gun crowd, and the dog can do no wrong crowd.

I mean getting 2 groups frothing for 1 post has got to be worth double points don't you think?

I got Buck and Phaedrus agreeing with each other, that has got to be a first.”

“If you keep that up, you’re going to create an imbalance in space and time.”

“I'll tell you what - a trigger-happy freak ready to fire multiple times over barking dogs is about a thousand times more dangerous than three unleashed pet dogs.

I am both a gun and a dog owner and I take neither on the trails with me. Since I've spent my life around big dogs - including Shepherds and Chows - and know how to behave when confronted by a dog, I don't have run-ins with unleased dogs on the trail. If a dog runs up to me barking, I stand there and wait for the owner to retrieve the dog. Usually just standing there quietly is enough to defuse the situation without even having to wait for the owner. Shouting, waving and shooting (and running) are all things that are very likely to escalate, not defuse, a situation that almost certainly otherwise have been nothing more than dogs running up to bark harmlessly. For the most part, dog incidents only happen to people who are afraid of dogs because of what they do when confronted by a dog. (If you really think it's reasonable to fire a weapon over a barking dog, please let me know where you hike and I, too, will be sure to hike in a state far, far away.)

I don't care to spoil a nice day's outing by having to worry about dog-phobes so my dogs stay home. So do my guns, since I don't frequent hiking locales where it's legal to carry one.

It is very unlikely that an adult is going to sustain a significant injury from a dog bite in this kind of scenario. It's relatively unlikely that the dogs were going to bite anyone anyway, since in an open area away from home, few dogs are really going to bite without provocation. (Running up and barking is not synonymous with a desire to bite.) To perceive the need for lethal force in such a circumstance sounds very much like a massive overreaction, borne of unreasonable fear of dogs.

The county attorney's office is still looking at the matter. "This is a case where an unarmed person is shot in the chest three times," Hance (the county attorney) said. "There's going to have to be some pretty fancy facts and talking to get around the fact that an unarmed man was killed. Our office is going to take a very hard look at the facts."

Hance adds:

"There is clearly the possibility that the shooter thought it was self-defense. That doesn't mean it was legally self-defense.

"Deadly force is not available as a resort for self-protection unless it appears that a reasonable person is responding to deadly force."

There's not a speck of physical evidence that the shooter, who was completely uninjured, was responding to deadly force. Since there's no living, speaking witness to the incident other than shooter, he can say whatever he wants to justify himself. It's a very scary precedent that someone can just shoot someone to death and walk away by saying, "His dogs barked at me, and then he yelled at me and came running after I shot at them, so naturally I thought my life was in immediate peril."”

“Hey there, just chiming in with a few thoughts. I often take my dog hiking, she is fairly well trained.... I love animals as a whole and love to pet them after a proper introduction.

Anyways, as far as approaching dogs barking and showing their teeth... I can often diffuse the situation when a dog approaches me. BUT IT'S NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY TO DO SO!!!!! The dog owner has that responsibilty! I have been bitten many a time by dogs that "don't bite". In fact, I was bitten by a little yapper (min-pin) twice today. Two scratches, no broken flesh or blood. Wanna know what the idiot owner told me: He's not really biting you, he's just tugging at at your pants leg. After the second nip, I think the dog recognized he was about to be good for three points.”

“I agree with monkeyboy. We should not have to confront un-leashed dogs & inconsiderate owners.”

“oh yeah, like he could make a field goal wearing those loafers...”

“I do not consider a person with 3 aggressive dogs unarmed.

I would consider an aggressive person with 3 aggressive dogs a threat.

Lets face it the shooter was an animal lover, he though it better to shoot 1 person than 3 dogs.”

“I do not consider a person with 3 aggressive dogs unarmed"

I agree with that. I know first had what even a small dog unleashed can do...let alone three? When I was out on the trail this weekend I saw a LOT of unleashed dogs. Most well behaved and friendly but I was still weary about them and asked thier owners to hold them whike I went past. Overly cautious? yes, but I have seen what mauling can do. I had a cousin attacked by a germon shephard once that was supposedly friendly and he had to have near 150 stitches. Not only that, if I were alone on a trail and an angry man came chargeing at me I would prolly shoot before thinking instead of standing there wondering if he was going to beat the crap out of me or what.”

“I carry a few "Scooby Snacks" with me, so if I meet an unfriendly dog, I will do like Mel Gibson aka Riggs did in Lethal Weapon 3 and get down on my hands and knees and share a scooby snack with the four legged dude :o)”

“The DA does not agree with the Sheriff's office.

Arizona central news

(snip)
Coconino County Attorney Terry Hance filed second-degree murder charges today against a Phoenix man who claimed self-defense in the fatal shooting last month in the woods north of Payson.

Harold Fish, 57, a retired Spanish teacher, shot 43-year-old Grant Kuenzli three times in the chest with 10 mm semi-automatic pistol on May 11.

Detective Scott Feagan said last month that the evidence would show that Fish acted in self-defense.

But after reviewing the evidence, Hance decided to file second-degree murder charges. The county attorney said he could not talk about the evidence.
(snip)

Another question raised is why the Coconino County Attorney is filing because Payson is in Gila County, different jurisdiction ??”

“Past comes to light as jury probes trail death

Victim's stalking arrest disclosed

Peter Corbett
The Arizona Republic
Jul. 23, 2004 12:00 AM


Those who knew a Payson man shot dead by a hiker two months ago in the woods of northern Arizona thought of him as a peaceful dog lover.

But they did not know of Grant Kuenzli's Mesa arrest two years ago and a police report accusing him of stalking a one-time girlfriend. The case apparently never went to trial, according to court records.

"That's disturbing," said John McCauley, a Payson retiree who befriended Kuenzli. "There was no indication that he was violent in any way."

Kuenzli, 43, was killed May 11 in a confrontation along a trail north of Payson. A former Valley teacher, 57-year-old Harold Fish, said he shot Kuenzli three times in self-defense after three dogs and then Kuenzli charged at him.

Fish was charged with second-degree murder last month by Coconino County prosecutors.

A grand jury met Thursday in Flagstaff to consider the case, and Fish was testifying as of 6 p.m.

Prosecutors filed the charge against Fish even though the initial lead detective on the case, Scott Feagan, concluded that Fish was defending himself in shooting Kuenzli.

Fish said he fired a warning shot with a 10 mm semiautomatic pistol at Kuenzli's dogs to stop them, only to look up and see Kuenzli running at him on the trail screaming: "I'm going to kill you, you son of a (expletive)!"

Coconino County detectives found Kuenzli's arrest record during their investigation.

Mesa police records from October 2002 show that Kuenzli was arrested on a stalking charge after his ex-girlfriend alleged that he threatened to kill her and her 9-year-old son and held them captive over two days in her home and his apartment. The son managed to call police on a cellphone when the woman convinced Kuenzli that the boy needed to go outside and play.

Names of the woman and her son were redacted from police reports.

Kuenzli, who was doing social work for the Mesa Fire Department at the time, met the woman after her husband died of a heart attack. He was sent to provide her assistance. Kuenzli continued to visit her, and they started a relationship.

Mesa fire officials removed Kuenzli from the volunteer program once they learned he had befriended the woman, police reports say.

According to the police reports, Kuenzli pressured the woman to marry him. She refused and later obtained an order of protection to keep him away from her. He then threatened to kill himself unless she lifted the protection and agreed to see him again.

The woman told police that, after she lifted the protection order, Kuenzli continued to press her to marry him. She said he followed her and was abusive.

The case apparently never went to trial. Mesa police did not return calls about the case, and Maricopa County Superior Court and Mesa Justice Court officials said they have no record of stalking or domestic-violence cases involving Kuenzli.

Coconino County sheriff's investigators also turned up a series of clashes that Kuenzli had with Mesa city and court officials after he was cited for not having his dog on a leash. After the stalking incident, Kuenzli lost the volunteer job with the Mesa Fire Department, which also rejected him for a paid position.

At the time of the shooting, Kuenzli was living out of his 1987 Chevrolet Sprint hatchback in the woods near Payson with his yellow Labrador retriever Maggie. He was being treated for depression and a heart condition.

Kuenzli also volunteered at the Payson Humane Society, walking dogs from its shelter. It was one of those dogs from the Payson shelter, a chow mix named Hank, that was the lead dog charging at Fish on the trail two months ago.

Fish's attorney, Mel McDonald, argues that the dogs were vicious and that his client was justified in defending himself against an attack by the animals and Kuenzli.

Staff reporter Mark Shaffer contributed to this article.”

“Trail shooter indicted for murder

By CHRIS MARKHAM
Sun Staff Reporter
07/24/2004

The Coconino County grand jury indicted Harold Fish on one count of second-degree murder Thursday in the May 11 shooting death of Grant Kuenzli.”

“yea, yea, yea,... i know it's a touchy subject, but i'm going to start training my dog for the trail.

i bought her a pack tonight online and will be starting her out on walks around the block with the pack on, then moving onto dayhikes, then overnighters, etc.

any tips from people who take their dogs on the trail would be greatly appreciated.

oh, she's a chocolate lab.”

“Mmmmmmmmmmm...chocolate!”

“Holy cow, girl! You've got a menagerie!”

“Oh, and please don't humiliate your dog by taking it for walks around your house with the pack on, as this tends to embarass them in front of the other neighborhood dogs. This will eventually give them a complex. So, imo, it's best to have them wear their pack where no other dog will see them.”

“buddur, my dog has no couth,..




“Holy cow, girl! You've got a menagerie!”

no way! only 5 birds (soon to be 6 in march) and a dog!
last edited: 10/17/04 10:29:53 PM”

“bailey : )

”

“Cool dog.

Now go get it some obedience training. You won't regret it.”

“i was always amazed at how well my dogs did on the trail. as soon as the packs went on they forgot to be goofs and behaved for a change.
make sure you use waterproof bags inside the doggie pack so your pooch will still have dry food even after she decides to lay down in the lake to cool off.”

“hey that's a good idea. knowing bailey, she'll run right for the lake and drag me in with her.”

“hahahaha, now that would be fun to watch!”

“i wanna get a lab, best pet I ever had was a choc lab, several years back. I've been thinking about it for a few weeks now.”

“Golden retrievers are better :D”

“no way, labs rock”

“BTW this is scorchfire, i'm on adrianna's name at work”

“Lab shepard mixes are even better.”

“bulldogs rule.
the rest of you suckers drool.”

“RIP Micah”

“Just remember, dogs do not belong in shelters shared with other hikers.”

“Dogs on the trail can be very tasty.”

“What happened to the Micah troll? Haven't seen him post in ages.”

“RIP Micah”
manuka
12:25:59 PM
10/18/04

LMAO”

“Good Tip, Helinka...thanks!”

“do you bring extra food on the trail for the dog since they use up more energy or do you still feed them the same amount as you would at home? i'm probably going to bring extra food for her.

this is probably a stupid question, anyhow.”

“LOL.. this weekend a hiker told us that he put a pack on his dog and it tore it to bits within 10 minutes... LOL

Big dogs scare me.... heck, most dogs scare me...”

“awwwww...what a sweet babydog!!!....
she looks just like my chocky-boy!...
i got him a backpack too and will be taking him on a test hike with me in a couple of weeks

good advice on the water proof bag...labs do like to get in the water.”

“I beat my dog with a 4" thick chain. That really helped with the trail behavior. Now I just have problems with the constant seizures.”