dogs on the trail?

“I don't know about dogs, but I like to to take my circus elephant Ganja on the trail. He's great for packing in all my stuff, collecting firewood (just pushes those whole trees over with his head!), and hosing me off with river water for a nice, refreshing shower after a day of hard backpacking. He did trample a boy scout troop once and accidentally suffocated a dog and its master after he took a massive dump on them, but it was all a big mistake. I'm thinking on my next outing that I might bring along Gunther, my 700 pound man-eating African lion!”

“gordy, Photon Belt?? huhu”

“Josh, I take my dog, I keep him on the leash, dont let him jump on people and walk him into the woods to poop. In the middle of the night we get out and peeee together...like two little boys, currently he is trying to teach me the leg lift trick, I keep falling over in my dazed sleep mode, he is becoming very annoyed, I guess Im not a good student.

Im hoping to bring him on the Ozark ect trip, if noone objects. It'll be his first multi-day back pac trip...he has his own Moutain Smith Back Pack, packs it in, packs it out.”

“Dogs, Guns and Cellphones, the perfect mix for BPking.”

“The way I see it is...I could give a flying fart if people don't like dogs on trails. I'm gonna do it anyways.

How many people do you see on a trail in one day..and how many of them don't like dogs? I'll bet the quantity is few, and the frequency of dog-haters is even fewer. 30 seconds of someone giving you a dirty look or whining to you is greatly outweighed by the weekend of enjoyment you'll have with ole'Red.”

“very true”

“Good for you keeping him on a leash, stikmon. But I'd bet your lying.



I'll never understand why anybody would want a smelly, messy, groveling, drooling companion.



I may feel different if dog ownership wasn't a clause in my marriage contract. I go to the woods trying to get away from stuff like the family mutt.”

“Toe, you should get a dog that isn't smelly, messy, groveling or drooling!”

“Dogs are cool as long as they are stay on the trail, and they don't growl and bite. I was hiking on the Chatooga River Trail in SC last year, and I come upon a family that had 2 Bull Mastiffs. This kid was no older than 12 or 13 and he had this dog on a leash, and this dog started growling and coming towards me, and this kid looked like he was skiing on the leaves (a 80 lb. kid cannot hold back a 150 lb. dog) with this dog pulling him. As this was happening, this kid was saying "Oh He's Okay, He won't bite." I think you have to draw the line somewhere. It sucks for people that has cool dogs, but what do you do?”

“When you meet me personally, then and only then can you call me a liar! Until then, why don't you go and clean your feet and eat your own toe jam. If I needed to lie, I sure wouldn't waste my time writing them out, but since you seem to know about lieing, I guess you do alot of it...the old adage seems quite alive with you..."it takes one to know one".”

“Toe Jam:

"I'll never understand why anybody would want a smelly, messy, groveling, drooling companion."

Does your significant other say the same thing?”

“Thanks.”

“Gordon, you beat me to it...I was going to write, "Ask women." heh heh”

“Shooting of dog-walker called justified



Grant Kuenzli (shown with his Labrador retriever, Maggie) was killed May 11 on a forest trail north of Payson.

Payson-area trail death deemed self-defense

Peter Corbett
The Arizona Republic
May. 22, 2004 12:00 AM


It was a common Arizona hiking confrontation: big, unleashed dogs on a trail, turning a peaceful walk in the woods into a frightening ordeal of snarling teeth and vicious barking.

Usually it is settled with words, sometimes angry. This time it turned deadly.

Coconino County sheriff's detectives say the shooting of 43-year-old Grant Kuenzli was a justifiable homicide. But the victim's friends say he was a peaceful man who had volunteered to take a couple of dogs from an animal shelter out for exercise and didn't deserve to die.

The encounter occurred 11 days ago near Payson, when Kuenzli was hiking through the woods on the Pine Canyon Trail with his dog, a yellow Labrador retriever named Maggie, and two other dogs, a chow and a German shepherd mix.

The dogs, which were not on leashes, ran ahead and apparently startled Harold Fish, a 57-year-old retiree from Phoenix, according to sheriff's Detective Scott Feagan.

Fish, who was carrying a 10mm semiautomatic pistol in a holster, felt threatened, Feagan said, and fired a warning shot into the ground near the dogs and then three shots at Kuenzli, all of which hit him in the chest.

"Our investigation leads us to believe this is a situation of self-defense," Feagan said. "(Fish) was under attack."

Fish could not be reached for comment. There were no other witnesses.

Payson retiree John McCauley, 73, who befriended Kuenzli at Payson's dog park, described him as "a very gentle person" who loved dogs and the outdoors.

McCauley and others in Payson who knew Kuenzli said it does not add up that he and his dogs would have been a threat to another hiker.

Feagan related Fish's account of the shooting:

Kuenzli's barking dogs charged at Fish, who yelled at Kuenzli to call them off. Fish fired a warning shot when the lead dog, the chow, was within 6 feet of him.

Fish looked up and saw Kuenzli running down the hill, fists clenched, and yelling at him. He warned him to stop. Kuenzli charged forward. Fish shot him three times.

Fish then hiked out and flagged down a passer-by to alert the Sheriff's Department. Kuenzli was dead when the paramedics arrive.

Fish had no wounds from the dogs.

Both Kuenzli and Fish were each about 5 feet 10 inches tall and weighed close to 200 pounds.

Feagan said the chow that charged Fish has a documented history of aggression.

That is disputed by Larry Stubbs, Payson Humane Society president.

Kuenzli, who volunteered at the Payson shelter, had taken the chow and shepherd out for a hike with Maggie, a therapy dog that he took to senior centers.

Stubbs, a retired Phoenix police officer, said the shelter would have euthanized either dog if it was vicious.

He said the Sheriff's Department had not contacted him.

McCauley said he believes that Kuenzli probably yelled at Fish not to kill his dogs.

"I don't think the guy who shot him was doing anything malicious," McCauley said.

"I just think he overreacted."

William Boa, a Mesa police volunteer for 14 years and a gun instructor, said a dog could be considered a lethal weapon.

"The question is: Are you in fear of your life and did you take a reasonable action?" said Boa, who teaches a concealed-weapons permit course.

Fish had a permit but was carrying his pistol openly, which is legal in Arizona.

A warning shot might indicate that Fish had time to flee, Boa said.

"Personally, I would have shot the dog first," he said.

Although detectives say the shooting appears to have been justified, they do intend to present the case to a Coconino County grand jury.

It will be several weeks before any results are known.

McCauley said he is concerned that Kuenzli will be portrayed to a grand jury as homeless and a "loose cannon."

Kuenzli was living in the woods near Payson, but he showered and shaved every day and was well-adjusted, McCauley said.

He worked as a fire inspector for the Gilbert Fire Department from July 1998 to April 1999.

Kuenzli also had a Web site listing himself as a pet photographer and appeared on an Internet listing of Arizonans for Howard Dean.

"He had plenty of money, a bank account and a $1,000 check on him when he was killed," McCauley said.

Stubbs, of the Payson Humane Society, said people in Payson are wondering how the shooting could have happened.

"He was such mild-mannered guy, they can't understand it," Stubbs said.



Reach the reporter at peter.corbett@arizonarepublic.com or (602) 444-6862.”

“How sad!

The dogs should have been on a leash, but that sure sounds like massive overreaction to me!”

“I agree.”

“thats horrible!!! i agree the dogs should have been on a leash but i think that is taking things too far!”

“Uh...Sheriff, I shot him accidentally 3 times. What a crock. If Fish had time to a fire warning shot when the lead dog was 6 feet from him....he had time to shoot at the ground of a running man...which coincidentally is alot slower than a dog.

Of course none of us were there....so "Dead Man Tells No Tales".”

“PET-peeve, people that let their dogs with dirty/muddy paws jump up on you. Then they have the nerve to smile at you and say they are sorry like they didn't know that their dog likes to jump up on people.

I take my dog on trails, because she is well behaved. I make sure she doesn't even sniff anyone. Some people don't want to be sniffed.”

“I get the feeling there's more to this story.”

“He should of just shot the demons.”

“that is just aweful..
I think leashes are a must.. you just never know”

“Not 1, not 2, but 3 dogs run at you, 2 of the 3 (Shepherd and Chow) are breeds which have less than pristine records.

Shot fired into the ground to scare the dogs off.

200Lb man charging at you yelling.

After just firing your warning shot with no ear muffs you do have some temporary hearing impairment, can't hear what he is saying but combined with the dog threat you are scared.

You yell back at him to stop, he does not.

I would shoot him too.

Shot 1, he is still coming, shot 2, he is still coming, shot 3.

If you are out anywhere and a person with a gun fires a warning shot and calls on you to stop and you do not, expect to get shot.

I would guess that after the shot, the dogs stopped which is why they did not get shot. The person did not, and did get shot.”

“What the h*ll was this guy doing with a gun on a hiking trail?”

“What ... was this guy doing with a gun on a hiking trail?"

embear
10:14:07 AM
05/24/04

"The question is: Are you in fear of your life and did you take a reasonable action?" said Boa, who teaches a concealed-weapons permit course.

Fish had a permit but was carrying his pistol openly, which is legal in Arizona".

He (Fish) had a permit for concealed carry but chose to carry not concealed. He had nothing to hide.

A lot of people carry a firearm, you can get a permit in almost any State, and when you have a permit, that is what you do, you carry the firearm.

Firearms are carried for various reasons but the most common is protection either for self or someone else.

Now if you feel you need a firearm for protection and go to all the time, trouble, and expense of getting a permit you would have to be pretty stupid to NOT carry the gun. Not a lot of protection available when it is sitting home in the safe.

No information was provided as to why Fish felt he needed to carry.”

“has nightmares for the rest of his life, I hope that all his decendants from not till eternity have nightmares and have ill luck. May his beer be sour, may his children bring ill-luck, may god forget to shine the light upon him and his...From my mouth to God's ears...may this be so.”

“Why do I get the feeling that Kuenzli just got pretty F-ed off at Fish when he heard the shots being fired, then proceeded to give Fish an angry piece of his mind...only to be shot for it.

It probably was self defense.”

“"Fish looked up and saw Kuenzli running down the hill, fists clenched, and yelling at him. He warned him to stop. Kuenzli charged forward."

Sounds a lot more threatening than "giving him a piece of his mind".

Easy for the law to check on the "charging" with footprint spacing and toe depth.

Assuming the footprints are consistent with Fish's story it would appear that Kuenzli thought a dog was shot, not that a warning was fired. Kuenzli went ape and given how many of us feel about our pets probably was a real threat to Fish.

If the footprints are not consistent with a "charging" man Fish should get locked up for a long time and should never have access to firearms again for the rest of his life.”

“I am sure I don't have all the facts here.


If it was ruled self defense, the investigative authorities has something to lead them to that conclusion.”

“Why was the guy walking the dogs shot? If anything, why didn't he shoot the dogs?”

“I guess the dogs were smarter...they stopped after hearing the gun shot. While the victim (idiot) continued "charging" foward even though someone's pointing a gun at him.”

“I'm surprised this guy with a gun didn't tie up the hiker to a stump and slowly chop off his head. Geez. I'm thinking about attaching rocket-propelled grenade launchers to my doggy packs to combat vicious gun-toting paranoid hikers like this dude.”

“Yeah, but how was the man a threat and why did this warrant him dying?

Sounds like someone has friends in the sheriff's department...”

“Buck risks death every time he goes out with his unleashed dogs.

Roseymonster - there are many instances of people being attacked by dogs.

The guy was nervous with 3 dogs he did not know approaching.
Something in the dogs approach got him to fire a warning shot to scare the dogs off. Others both in Arizona and on this board have asked why he did not shoot the dogs rather than the person, but the dogs stopped with the shot. He did not shoot the dogs because the dogs were no longer perceived as attacking him after the warning shot.

But the person charging at him and yelling did not stop, not when told to, and not when shot.

Kuenzli possibly thought that one of the dogs was shot and had every intention of causing bodily harm to the person who shot the dog. A lot of the dog owners on this board have expressed similar sentiment if anyone hurt their dog.

The threat was probably very real as the dog person was 24 years younger than the person he was attacking (43 yr old Kuenzli, 57 yr old Fish).

Fact is Fish did not shoot the dog, he fired to scare it away.
Kuenzli went ape, was a threat, was shot.

If Fish had not shot how much damage was Kuenzli prepared to inflict on a much older person who he "thought" had shot one of his (borrowed from the pound) dogs.

How would this post go if Kuenzli had beaten Fish to death by mistake because the dog was not shot. I am sure he would feel real sorry.

No excuse for not having the pound hounds on a leash. No one can tell me that 2 dogs you are exercising from a pound are under voice control. Your own dog maybe, but the Chow and Shepherd were not under anyones control.”