“I'm on a roll. Any interesting discussion would be greatly appreciated.


After 30 years of rising unemployment, growing public debt, and a stagnant economy, many Germans are reexamining their social welfare state.

Here is an excerpt from an interesting article:

“Germany’s “Social Market Economy” between social ethos and rent seeking.” By Ulrich Witt in volume VI, number 3, winter 2002 edition of “THE INDEPENDENT REVIEW a journal of political economy”

“Unlike the Founding Fathers of the United States, the founders of the German economic constitution seem to have been enticed by their social ethos to ignore the dilemmas they would create by laying down in that constitution the commitment for society to provide security from the pitfalls of life to all its members. Although this commitment may well be a constitutional desideratum, in practice it cannot easily be aligned with economic efficiency and robust individual freedom. Whereas the corporatist (the idea of pressing for “social” corrections of the competitive market outcome-that is, for income redistribution…) practice fails to qualify as an implementation of that constitutional desideratum altogether, the redistributive social policy may achieve that goal. In doing so, however, it creates an implementation dilemma that entails high costs-too high, perhaps, to be acceptable to other societies.

One consequence of the implementation dilemma, to which the author refers, involves a loss of privacy. Before the welfare state, people in economic trouble went to their family, friends, and local religious groups for help. These groups had direct contact with these individuals, knew them, and could accurately determine their need for assistance. With the advent of the welfare state, large bureaucracies are removed from these individuals. In order to determine an individual’s need for assistance, and to determine that they are not “scamming” the system, they must acquire large amounts of personal data on these people. This compromises personal privacy.

The author does not say that a welfare state, where the government redistibutes wealth, cannot happen in the U.S. He only reports that this type of high tax, government social program, market regulatory state was written into the German Constitution after WWII.

Any comments from the Democrats?”

“SOB! A welfare thread on a friday in the middle of the winter?! No spank you! I'll come back to this one come spring! LOL!”

“Comment from an Independant:

Accept the premise and apply it to Corporate Welfare as well.

Fat Chance.”

“Hey, be quiet and resume paying obeisance to the corporate fat cats. They have bought your allegiance fair and square and it's no use spending time complaining about the Germans on the dole.”

“Why worry about Germany on such a beautiful Friday? Anywho...I got my own unemplolyment to worry about. F the Germans.”

“"constitutional desideratum"??? Who the hell uses words like that? Hey, Ulrich! ---> (_x_)”

“Oh no!!!! Somebody is posting as Kleetn!
Kleetn, are you at home, cheating the welfare system, again?”

“I say, bring back Hans and Frans. They were the only Germans that weren't on welfare.”

“Memories of days
stood waiting in welfare lines...
long days, no TT”

“No intelligent comments then? Stuck in preconceived opinions? Even when presented with evidence, some folks refuse to be open to new ideas. Some of the conservative Democrats have spoken, where are the liberals?

Please, someone, present a cohesive comparison of corporate welfare to the welfare state.”

“Arc! You bait, but nobody is biting. The frustration of the fisherman sets in. You get depressed. You quit your job.
Welfare will be the only answer for you, my friend.”

“Flunked out of high school,
work in defense factory.
Ron Reagan was right.”

“LOL Dunadan. I needed that on a Friday, with a bronchial infection, and my car in the shop for MAJOR repairs. Buddy can you spare a dime?”

“Sorry to hear about your bronchial tubes, Arc. I hope you whip it, soon.
Cars suck.”

“Violin speaks truth
His haiku is beyond reproach
I say, "GET A JOB!"”

“Thoughtful article
No intelligent replies
Minds puckered, lips closed.”

“People, pick up on what I'm puttin' down now
Welfare mothers make better lovers
Down at every laundromat in town now
Welfare mothers make better lovers
While they're washin' you can hear this sound now
Welfare mothers make better lovers
DEE VORR CEE!

Hard to believe that love is free now
Welfare mothers make better lovers
Out on the street with the whole family now
Welfare mothers make better lovers
Hard to believe that love is free now
Welfare mothers make better lovers
DEE VORR CEE!

People, pick up on what I'm puttin' down now
Welfare mothers make better lovers
Down at every laundromat in town now
Welfare mothers make better lovers
While they're washin' you can hear this sound now
Welfare mothers make better lovers
DEE VORR CEE!

NYoung”

“I thought Hans and Frans were Austrian.”

“Personally, flyguy, I like the song, "Teenage Immigrant Welfare Mothers on Drugs" much better.”

“What's in the works right now: repeal of the Alternative Minimum Tax... retroactively. And it's all wrapped up by George in a Red, White & Blue package as if it's out Patriotic Duty to run up the national debt.”

“I am against the repeal of the Alternative Minimum Tax (unless they choose to replace the revenue with a different tax). The thing is, the only way that the AMT can be repealed is retroactively because of the way it is structured. Railing against the retroactivity is basically bogus.”

“It's in Part II of the giveaway for George's contributors. He got Part I through (personal income tax), but now the electorate is having second thoughts.

It's a shame we can't have true tax simplification so the tax preparation and litigation industy folks can get out and do meaningful work... It's all make-work. What a waste.”

“True tax simplification. Now there's an issue I agree wholeheartedly with you on Tilt. We should institute a flat tax.

'Course if the Democrats have their way the form will read, "How much do you make? Send it in".”

“yes bacpac, me too.”

“Such a welfare situation infuriates me. I work hard, every day, to EARN my money, only to have some one else take it away from me, with out my permission and just give it to other people who do not work for it, and all to many of them just waste it, all the while, I was just scraping by.

Before I get blasted by all the bleeding hearts that can claim a good case for welfare, let me state that I have worked in all to many welfare housing complexes. Yes there are some who truly need the assistance. But there are too many who will take anything the government takes from me to give to them. And then they won't do anything, even sweep the floor where they live. And those slobs ruin the reputation of those who truly need it, which makes it even sadder....”

“Austrian? No wonder they had jobs! Blankety-blank Germans are ALL on welfare, I guess.”

“On top of that Uphill, we are so dependant upon welfare because a lot of people make their living working IN the welfare industry that if we did major reforms a lot of people would lose their jobs and the government would be double evil because they're screwing the recipiant AND the resipricator. It's an evil cycle.”

“One of the interesting consequences of the the German "Social Market Economy" has been its effect on unemployment. The unions, at the large companies, lobby for higher wages and get them as long as these large companies can pass the cost to the consumer. But the smaller businesses often have to lay off employees, or have a hiring freeze, in order to stay competitive because of the higher overall cost of labor. Unemployment doesn't cause the Germans as much worry as it would here because they have such extensive "safety net" social programs. So it becomes a downward spiral where more people get laid off because of rising wages, their economy is unable to absorb all of the unemployed workers, those who don't have jobs find it hard to find employment, and the burden on the welfare state becomes greater.

When someone tells me about how humane the social welfare state is, I figure that they don't understand many of the consequences.


Equal opportunity, not equality, for everyone.”

“Why should I give some lazy basterd my hard earned money just because he doesn't have any?

I see it every day in school, teachers yell at students telling them that they need to pay attenchen, get a good education, go to college, and earn money. The studdents show no respect to the teachers and tell them to fùck off. These people where warned by there teachers, partents and socitety. Every one has told these lazy pieces of shít to get off there as$ and get an education, these people have failed to do so, yet because of there ingnorace and arogance I have to give them my money. I say NO!


Lets break it down heres a senario for you:

Ok back in cave man times, if you sat in a corner and did nothing in the day, didn't hunt didn't build shelter, you died. No one was expected to give up some of there food for some lazy as$.

---
Don't get me wrong
---

For people who are disabled, and I meen really disabled, then the governemt should help out, but the govenment should NOT have to help out peopel who get injured and sit around the house all day doing nothing to better them selves or there situation.”

“

GET A FùCKING JOB

Ice Tea 2021”

“keeping the thread alive”

“A peaceful society is one of responsibility for ones actions. If thy fails to seize the value of a free education that is bestowed upon thy by birth, and if thy’s out come is failure, chosen by thy, not by class or race. For all to be harmonious, all must take accountability for thy’s shortcoming and overcome it. If one wants something enough one will find a way to achieve it, weather it be by further education or by reducing ammonites to gain what one desires the most. Man is not judged and should not be judged by race, colour, or creed, but by education, reputation, and character. For thy to live among others and be harmonious thy must have respect for other people’s positions, and for them selves. If and when thy makes a poor decision when wise advise was acquired, thy must fend for thy’s self, not rely on others for come to aid. If thy makes foul choices because thy knows that aid will be bestowed upon thy when in need, thy shall rot and no aid shall be given. Thy must and will take responsibility for thy’s actions if all is to be joined in peace.

GANDALF µ”

“Comment from a Green Partier:

Pass the organic salt. Thank you.”

“organic... salt (NaCl)

Get It???

sheesh, do I have to explain everything to you?”

“hummmm, yep, sure caught me dozing.”

“Since when is Gandalf an illiterate Mennonite?

"thy's" ???


puh-LEEZE”

“salt is inorganic

Oh well. I didn't read this whole thread”

“I say we quiz gandalf to see if he/she has only watched the movie or wasn't lazy and read the books.

Nevermind, we should harras another republican, I'll leave the media to do that for yah all.”

“Sense when id Gandalf white? Isn't it Gandalf the Gray?”

“Good one, nigal. Sauruman was the White.”

“Gandalf is on welfare.”

“Nigal the quick, but slow on wit, I ask you to read chapter 5 of "two towers". In this text you will find the answer that dances with your ignorance.

GANDALF µ”

“Read the parody the Harvard Lampoon published, 'Goodgulf', *G*.

Hate to spoil it if you don't know the story...


*~*~*~*~*~ DON'T READ THIS! ~*~*~*~*~*


He came back as 'Gandalf the White', remember? (but I think he had a better grasp of grammar, ha!)”

“I agree w/ you on the the obvious consequences of a welfare system that has gone too far. Eventually, it crashes in on its self. I read somewhere about the welfare system in Holland collapsing in 2010 or so, because there will be more people on welfare than not. And I agree w/ Tea and Uphill about those who abuse America's system and basically suck the life out of others. But I think it is important to remember that there are honest people out there, who ARE working, trying to get an education, and take care of their families, but just are not able to make ends meet. God forbid a person finding themself in the situation, but it happens everyday. Personally, I am glad I pay into a system that may provide a TEMP. (important point to remember) safety net for me, should I need it.”

“I believe, according to what I have seen in the subsidized housing I have renovated and repaired, that there is a huge majority sucking the life out of the system for those in the minority who need it.

I am not glad to pay (forcibly and without my permission) into a system with no checks and balances to make sure that the money they forcibly take from me is wisely spent. WAY too much of it is just doled out to the undeserving. I would much rather take the extra the government takes from , and put it in the bank and take care of it myself. It would be an incredible amount of money. Wise living (saving for a rainy day), good friends, family and WORKFARE would be my choice for emergency situations. I would have a safety net for the truly incapitated.

BTW my personal feelings about welfare: If some one NEEDS something, give them all they need, regardless of the limits. If they only want it, make em work for it.”

“I agree 100%.”

“Are we talking about New Jersey?”