The Welfare State

“Many years ago, I read a story about two Maine towns, bordering each other, in the newspaper. It left quite an impression on me.

These two towns bordered each other, one with double the population. The smaller town had a welfare budget of $38,000.00, the larger town had a budget of $1000.00. It appears that the smaller town just handed out the money. The larger town required that folks show up on Saturday to rake the town park to get their money. When no one ever showed up, they figured that they must have found a way to make ends meet.

What a concept. You have to work to earn your money....”

“I'm in agreement. Far to many people confuse NEEDS with WANTS.

I'm for equal opportunity for everyone. Not government sponsored equality.

Having a large, centralized system doling out welfare makes implementation difficult for reasons that I've already stated from the article. Having more localized control over a valuable social "safety net" may help.

Some folks beleive that if we throw enough money at a problem it will go away. Then again, despite history's lessons, it appears that some folks actually believe socialism to be a good system.”

“Thanks for the wisdom Arclite. I feel that anybody in this country that wants to be great can be with a lot of hard work and dedication. The company I work for was started by a man that started his business in his mother's basement, he worked for 7 years straight, 7 days a week, 12 hours or more every day (on holidays he would go spend a little time with his family, and then he would go to work), he made it happen, now @ 44 he's semi-retired and a multi-millionaire. I just get really angry, when someone comes out and says that he was one of the "more fortunate", and that he's an evil rich guy. He's fortunate because he made himself that way. I think this attitude of class envy and that I deserve something that I haven't worked for is really hurting this country.”

“That is right Sherpa.
Class envy is something that liberals have been tagged with though.

I believe this country should knock off ANY wasteful welfare pay-outs.
That includes ALL the gazillions that are wasted on the Dept of Defense and corporate welfare.

"Evil Rich Guy" is a construct of right-wing propagangstuh-rap.

arclite-
I've read enough about the "downward spiral" of the Evil European Welfare States........let's watch 'em crash and burn!

Who the fnck knows, maybe U.S. evil rich Americans can pick up some hot real estate deals in Euro-Trash Land when it all comes a'tumblin' down.”

“The article has nothing to do with "Evil European Welfare States", Tom. The article was written by a German who lives within this system. Maybe you've read enough propaganda and rhetoric, Tom, but there are good articles that state facts showing that socialist systems can be inefficient and have unforseen social effects. There are interesting points on every side of an issue. Is everything black and white to you?”

“Don't mistake what I'm saying, it angers me just as much for the big corporations to go crying to the feds to bail them out everytime they get in a jam as it does for all of the deadbeats who look to the government for their support”

“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.

(Economist John Kenneth Galbraith)”

“ "In general the art of government consists in taking as much money as possible from one class of citizens to give to the other."

Voltaire

 “Its [the Democratic Party’s] leaders are always troubadours of trouble; crooners of catastrophe... A Democratic President is doomed to proceed his goals like a squid, squirting darkness all about him.”

Clare Booth Luce


 “A liberal is a man who is willing to spend somebody else’s money.”

Carter Glass


 “I can remember way back when a liberal was one who was generous with his own money.”

Will Rogers


 “Liberal- a power worshipper without the power.”

George Orwell”

“So, in the end, it does all appear to come down to money. Makes me sort of sad, really.

Peace. :)”

“Nah, mapper. It comes down to who has the more ridiculous quotes.

Rhetoric is funny but pointless. Unless you're really, really ignorant.”

“Mapper, so you're basically saying that achievment and wanting something better out of life is selfish? So I guess it's not fair for some to have more than others?”

“No arclite, its not all black and white to me.

All of the European states have sometimes very different ways of doing things.

In Belgium, for instance, a man wouldn't dare go out and buy a car without consulting his wife.
In The Netherlands, however, a man WOULD surprise his wife with a new car and she would defer to his judgement in such matters......or is it the other way around.
THIS in countries that are close nsighbors.

I have read with interest about the various "social systems" and their shortcomings.

It seems that the Euro-states have or have not dealt with their problems, some better than others. and things DO evolve.

I, for one, do not care for socialism or communism.

There are however certain SOCIAL needs which must be met in any society.
If social needs are NOT met, then the consequences of such inaction must be dealt with.
And the cost of not dealing with social problems is usually more expensive than taking care of business on the front end.

Ramble, ramble, ramble........”

“That ain't no ramble, Tom. Dang, you make a good post when you want to. I didn't know that about Belgium and the Netherlands, those are some interesting cultural differences between close neighbors.

Sounds like we have the same ends in mind, maybe just different ways of getting there. Ain't that what makes this country great?”

“Referencing Ice Tea's "don't work= don't eat= die" concept...

Isn't welfare contrary to the evolution of our species? We are allowing the laziest / dumbest/ weakest members of society to survive, indeed, we are encouraging them to reproduce via larger paymrents for more dependents?

I read an interesting article on this subject a long time ago written by a Nobel Prize winner (Shockly?). He wan denounced as an elitist and a racist, but no one could rebutt his argument.”

“Yeah, OK

America is a lot like the Tower of Babel.....or is it Babble?

THAT IS what make America good and bad.

But at least we can hash it out without(too much) blood-letting.

I just think there is entirely too much fear of anything that is labeled "socialism" and that fear is being mongered(?) by right-wing and corporate interests who prefer to run our lives.......mo' betta' profitable.

Health Care, anyone?”

“I don't have any fear of socialism, Tom. I just think it's a really, really bad idea.

I don't like the idea of government legislating morality through social programs whether they come from the right or the left.

Health care yes! I'm all for health care. I know that health care has worked the vast majority of people that I know. 'Course we could try a socialized sytem like Europe or Canada. Mediocrity and long waits for everyone! We could all have teeth like Austin Powers (a very funny play on the horrible dental care in the Enlish socialized medicine model).”

“Le sub, I'm glad some one reads my posts. LOL

Sirviaval of the fittest (most educated)”

“I find some of the comments about people recieving welfare downright offensive. There was a period in my life when I needed help from that system (obvious conclusion you guys probably already drew). According to the the 2001 official poverty line for a fam. of two (which is what Newergirl and I were at the time I needed assistance) I fell well below the mark. I make just a bit over minium wage and only work part-time. I admit I could move to an area w/ a better economy and make more. I stay here because of the support I get from my family. (One of you pointed out that people in these sits. should seek fam. help instead of welfare.) I only work part-time, because I'm also furthering my education (to get MYSELF out of a neg. financial sit.) & because it's my job and no one else's to raise my daughter. I'm struggling to balance providing for her and BEING there for her. Each month I make decisions between paying bills (all of them are utilities which I must have). I don't have cable, fancy options w/ my phone service, etc. The only reason I have an ISP bill is because I live so far from the campus of my school that I must have a way to access the web (I take classes on-line to make up for not being able to drive to school constantly). I drive 100 miles round trip, 4 nights a wk. for my other classes. So far careful management of stud. loans has paid for gas and car maint.. I have no health ins. I can't afford it, the co. I work for does not offer it. I do all this on a very low income and I still managed to pay off two credit cards this past yr. and save to buy a home computer. At the time I got assistance I used the WIC program (Women/Infants/Children). It provided me w/ the money to buy formula for Newergirl. One can of formula costs between $9-$15. She went through 8-10 cans a month at the time. I breastfed as long as I could, but I had to quit so I could go back to work (and MAKE my own money). No matter how carefully I balanced things, I just couldn't come up w/ that extra money to buy the formula. I can tell you, there is nothing so humiliating as walking into that office and admitting that you just can't afford to feed your own child. I can tell you that, because of the people who are out there abusing the sys., I got treated like dirt by the workers in those offices. They talked down to me, acted as though I couldn't possibly know a thing about caring for my daughter, & were always looking to be sure I wasn't cheating them. I never used false info. on even one form, I was respectful to them (even as they condescended to me), and humbly thanked them every time. I take a big risk posting this here, but I really wanted to make a point. Not every person who recieves some type of welfare at some point in their lives is the "laziest, dumbest, weakest" member of society. Some of them are honest, hard-working, intelligent people who have got together all the strength they can to ask for help. Don't put them all in one box. I'm eternally thankful for the extra boost and happily pay taxes into that sys., even knowing full well that some are cheating it. If my money helps one woman like myself care for her child, it is worth it.”

“Sorry about the incredibly long post, trying to make a point. Also, obviously since Belowzero and I have been back together and working things out, most of that sit. has improved.”

“Tea, LeSub, Arc, Uphill . . . are you guys seeing this? Man, that was alot of typing for nothing. LOL!”

“That was pretty brave.

I'm proud of you. I'm sure newergirl will be too when she's old enough to understand what you are doing for her.”

“Newgirl, I was happy to read your story, you spoke of all that I and fellow conservatives ask to do, get an education and with that education you will find a job that makes you good money. I wish you luck in your battle to raise a child on low income.”

“Education costs two things: time and money and sometimes those are not enough to get one educated. Two things I might add that not everyone has the luxury of having. If you are going to attend a Ivy League or simalarly expensive school then one of a few things is happening.

1. Your family is paying your way. This option has nothing to do with your "fittness" as far as Darwinism is concerned and everything to do with your parents.

2. You will get a student loan and (allegedly) pay it off after you graduate. BTW student loans are a form of GOVERNEMT ASSISTANCE.

3. You will be holding down a job and paying your own way through school. Very admirable.

4. You worked your butt off in school and got a scholarship. Good for you.

For most folks number three (if at all) is the only option. I was lucky in that I was in the first category although I didn't get an Ivy League education. I thank God every day for my parents help. I sure as hell don't think I'm any better than anyone else because of it though.

I have no problem helping people who need help, without qualification. That's one thing I learned in Boy Scouts, Church and from Mom and Dad.

My only problem is with being used by abusers.

Newgirl you are not an abuser and anyone who says otherwise is an ignorant pig.”

“Oh yes, I read the whole post newgirl. It was only as long as you needed it to be, in order to say what you needed to say.

Ummmmm...maybe I'm missing something here but I don't get the impression that anyone here wants to completely stop "social safety nets". I don't mind paying tax dollars for someone who temporarily uses the system to better themselves. In fact, that's what I want it for.

Isn't it a shame that the govmint bureaucrats in those systems almost make you feel like you're begging for the money.”

“Gandalf The White-
You must be truely prescient to know what you and fellow conservaitves want.
You denizens of righteousness must certainly be of one mind.

Are you guys connected like the Borg Collective.

He he he.......

It is wonderful that you(and the rest of your like-minded minds) approve of the way newgirl is running HER life.

newgirl-
Its too bad you have to deal with such sh!theads when forced to go for help.
It sounds as though some of those welfare workers are in the wrong line of work.
Going to school too?
What are you studying?

Good money?
Good money?
Isn't all money good?”

“don't seem to fit the real world do they. I'm sure we all have abused one system or another. If you've ever sped you lied to the dmv, driving is a priviledge not a right. It seems when politicians and hacks seem to attack the "have-nots" because they are easy targets. We taxpayers spend tons of money on politically inspired programs that benefit the constituents of certain politicians, but these tax $$ are not attacked because they are part of the "welfare" system that keep our politicians in office. Real people like Newgirl & Newergirl are labeled as all sorts of things to keep us voters polarized against "socialism" or whatever other "ism" is popular that week. The state of California was raped by power companies last year and then the execs at Enron took their golden parachutes and bailed. So many people are more concerned whether poor people are ripping off the taxpayer than whether Enron advised this administration to not impose price caps... do the math. PS. Newgirl, keep fighting, you're doing great!”

“Newgirl, keep up what you are doing. I am happy to here that you are paying taxes even though you don't benifite from them.

Twas a long time ago when.....I'm not getting into this story, its too personal, but it is a similiar story to newgirls.

I don't think that there should be NO wellfare, but I can't stand that we give money to every one, and the people that need it don't get it.

Also it pissises me off that most of our tax dolors go to fat cat polititions NOT to wellfare and SS.”

“They do in fact give you the feeling that you have to beg for the money, Arc. I had ridiculously overweight, under-qualified "nutrionists" try to "educate" me on how to feed Newergirl. I had been reading/studying (in preparation) about infant nutritional for almost a full yr. at that point. I had to go to monthly appts., where no matter home early I arrived, I was finally "seen" literally hrs. after my official appt. time. They totally disrespected my time, treated it as though it wasn't at all valuable. Often after hrs. and hrs. of sitting in the office Newergirl would be fussy. Then they would ques. me about why she was so upset. I agree 100% that the sys. is a poor one, but it is unfair to judge large groups of people on the disgusting leeches that are out there. Based on my own experience, I think that one should only get assitance as an absolute last resort, they should go in w/ a time limit in mind, and a plan on how to get out asap. Most importantly you should be prepared to stay strong and not let your confidence waiver, inspite of the way a majority of the workers treat you.”

“Time to bash the bureaucrats, is it? Cold hearted sh!theads make you feel like you're begging for money. So tell me, would you rather they drop a check in the applicants lap with a smile, no questions asked? Perhaps they're a teensy bit jaded from dealing with all those "people who don't need it"? C'mon everyone, we can't have it both ways, now can we?

Newgirl has a conscience, and maybe that's why she felt the way she did when she visited the welfare office.”

“Donman, I know a lawyer who is challenging the idea of driving being a "privelege" that can be taken away at the wim of the government. And I'm not talking about taking it away because someone is a danger to others.

Shame you feel
"polarized" or paralyzed or whatever against socialism. It is a real-life system of government that many folks happen to disagree with, without being terrrorized by rhetoric. Such as the rhetoric I hear every time a Republicrat is elected to office, "They're going to abolish Roe vs. Wade!" That particular piece of "polarization" has been scaring people since the early 80's.

Donman, you may be partially right about the "California Energy Crisis." I'll be very interested to see what the investigation uncovers. There's no proof yet, but talk about your criminal actions. That would be huge.”

“I'm pretty sure that most 'liberals' don't want to support those who are able but unwilling to support themselves.

Here's a relevant question. How would you design a system that would get help to those who need and 'deserve' it but cut out the 'abusers'? (And please don't tell me churches and charity because most of them are struggling with what they have as it is and are not immune to rip-off schemes either.)”

“newgirl, I have the utmost respect for you...I wish you the very best. (Hugs to you and Newer.)”

“Mapper, you're right. Those workers are jaded and that is why they should seek other lines of work. I dealt w/ people who were downright rude (not to mention ignorant) to me. What does that do for a young woman's sense of pride? I don't think they needed to be there stroking my ego, but some of them were absolutely unprofessional. They need to have people in those positions who are somewhat understanding, encourage the people there to get out, and help them come up w/ a plan to do so. I am not kidding you one bit, they actually try to KEEP you in it. They give you the feeling that you may not be capable, maybe we should see if you qualify for other programs. I told one woman, "I don't want to get further in this spiral, thanks anyway." She looked at me in utter shock.”

“You can never have it both ways.

Violin has pointed out the real issue here. All systems are prone to abuse and in turn they tend to abuse those who ligitimatly need the service because of the fraudulent actions of some.”

“No one is immune to rip-off schemes, violin. You can't protect everybody from everything.

I would rely more on local charities and church groups. These organizations have a much better chance of knowing exactly who is in need and how best to help. This also upholds local mores for behavior instead of nationally legislated rules for behavior.

Newgirl talked about being embarrased by welfare bureaucrats. Well that's one thing that the original article talks about. In order for an impersonal govmint system to implement this program, they need to ask all sorts of personal questions, thus exposing individual privacy to national agencies.”

“Violin, that is a very, very good question. I don't have a good answer. What I observed of the women around me, in almost every case, was lack of education. Followed closely by low self-esteem. They need programs that help these women realize 1)what the posssibilities are, 2)that they are capable of reaching lofty goals, 3) they are intelligent and capable of becoming more so, and 4) that they and their children are well-worth the extra work. After going through such a program they need to go into one that teaches them some of the basic life skills, prepares them for college, and then does everything possible to help them make it through. I think most of them are in a generation to generation legacy of welfare. My sit. happened to be diff. I already had the confidence, education, and skills that most of them are lacking. Anyway, from what I saw, this could be a good start. Or I might just be an idealist.”

“arc - I think you missed my point. Who is to fund those local charities and church groups? They exist now and their resources are strained.”

“Violin, part of the problem is that many long-term welfare recipients can't justify taking a job because they would make less than they do on the dole.

The system has the wrong incentives. More children, more money. Get a job, less money.

Not to trivialize it, but there should be "a safety net, not a hammock." Living on welfare should be hard, or it will be abused. I don't see any way around that.

As much as I want things to be easier for newgirl...but that's only because I can see that she is not, and will not, abuse it.”

“Newgirl, you are, to me, the reason to keep these programs in place. I've dealt with the inconsiderate ****heads you speak of. All I was ever eligible for was WIC, which pays for the most expensive nutritional needs of the baby. I earned too much on overtime and second jobs, etc... to be eligible for anything else. I kept checking and frankly, I was kinda glad to not be eligible. BTW I have five children, and I worked my butt off, but never needed welfare, so I didn't scam the system.

I have no problem with those who need these programs, but I do have a problem with those who scam the system and steal from ME.

Uh, how about posting a pic of Newergirl???”

“If I wasn't paying over half of what I make in taxes, I'd be in a much better position to contribute to charities and my church.

And, I'd know that a MUCH higher % of that money was actually going to help people, vs. paying for an inefficient beaurocracy.”

“Fritz, plse. don't misunderstand what I have posted. I am not trying to write-up a dramatic "poor me, look how hard it is to be me" post here. I am not looking for things to be easier for me. I just want everyone to see a clear picture of the welfare system. Not everyone in it is a piece of crap and not everyone working in it is a honorable do-gooder. Uphill, I will talk over the possiblity of posting a pic. w/ Belowzero. As you know, I have been nervous about posting a pic. in the past and Belowzero is still nervous about it. I know that it is hard to justify when I just spilled my guts about a very personal sit. in my life, but you know . . .”

“You looking for a quick fix, violin? Are you looking for one overall program? That is what I am advocating against.

Why can't local charities and church groups, in poorer regions, solicit donations nationally? That's what happens whenever there's a natural disaster.

Money is not the only answer. I have personally let homeless folks stay in my home, sometimes for months.

I would use a national "safety net" as a last choice. The less stress we put on that system, the more efficiently it can run.

There are probably many ways people can think of to help. Any suggestions?”

“newgirl, I didn't misunderstand...I didn't see any self-pity at all, in your posts, or any cry for sympathy.

That is just my natural reaction.

If my response sounded like pity, I apologize, it was meant to just sound like compassion and support.”

“One thing I am doing right now is volunteering my very limited free time to speak to h.s. students about pregnancy, birth, and the first yr. of a babies life. And you bet your a$$ I talk to them about the real financial figures and the impact of an unplanned baby. I give them the hard numbers on everything from formula cost to diaper cost to number of straight hrs. of sleep to how long it takes in hrs. to wash, sterilize, and prepare baby's bottles. I talk to them about how important it is to take responsibility and I always end the class by giving my number out and saying, "If you find yourself in this sit., I have lots of personal knowledge about how to do the best you can for yourself and your baby and to succeed."”

“My goal is to first give them the hard facts about why they should do everything to avoid the sit. and second to tell them if it happens they don't have to feel ashamed and they can get through it. If that means humbly asking the U.S. taxpayers for help, they can do it. What is important is that they and their child succeed.”

“Recent welfare reforms have allowed states a lot more leeway in how the money is spent. In NJ and a few other states, having additional children while on welfare results in no additional payments. The savings have been used to fund welfare to work initiatives.

Medicaid and other means-tested entitlements account for less than 15% of the Federal budget. If you got a 15% tax reduction, would you donate most or all of that to charity?”

“Good points Violin.”

“I am studying Business Management & Communications. Sorry, I missed it before.”

“I can't keep up with this thread, I'm just going to assume that people suported what I said other then reading it. LOL

I'll read all your posts once I finish my HW”

“One should never assume Tea.”