The Welfare State

“I hope no one read more into my last post than I intended. I'm not saying we should starve the poor out of the gene pool. I just thought this guy's argumnet about de-evolution of the species was interesting.

Newgirl we got WIC when my 4 kids were little. I always thought it was great that they tried to teach their clients something instead of just giving them money. We got a series of excellent pamphlets on canning garden foods, and they gave double credit for stuff bought at the local farmer's market. You couldn't buy any junk food on their assistance.”

“Newgirl, I know I'm prolly a little late to respond to this, but I want to say to you, thanks for not abusing the system.My earlier arguments were against people that use the system to take care of them when they make bad decisions, or when they are too lazy to work. I think the welfare system in this country needs one heck of an overhaul. It needs to be a program to help people get back on their feet, not reward them for getting in that position to begin with. Every morning while driving to work, I drive thru a really poor part of town, and it bugs me that their are able-bodied men in their 20s-30s just standing around doing nothing, that are living in government housing, but yet they have the nice Hilfiger clothes and the cell phones, and the custom wheel jobs on their cars.I guess I'm just a little angered that I can't keep as much of my money to help take care of MY family, because my wife and I do forego some things in life (we drive very modest vehicles, etc.). I'm just angered at the way politicians buy votes by promising people things that will take money away from others to pay for. So that's my argument, and by the way thanks again, and I hope all goes well for you and Newergirl.”

“Violin, there's no need to contribute 15% if the system is run more efficiently. I have not researched the specifics, but every govmint agency I have ever had dealings with wastes money. And as I posted before, money is not the only anwser. I once had a homeless family live with me for over four months. Are you willing to do that?

Govmint IS welfare for some people who apparently don't have the people skills to make it in private enterprise. Could you imagine going into any store in the country and being treated like you are in the DMV or welfare offices? Govmint jobs are mostly permanent welfare too. It is very hard to fire a State worker. Where I work, we are split between private and govmint. Our guys (construction and maintenance) always talk about how lazy the State workers are. The private side of the hospital is modern and up-to-date. The State side is behind-the-times.”

“LeSub, I'm all for the WIC workers teaching something to their clients. However, some of them are so lacking in comm. skills that they can't do it w/out a huge amount of condescension (sp?). Also, I was often sitting there listening to a worker tell me how to feed myself and Newergirl "healthier" and the woman would be obese. Doesn't seem she knows too much about proper nutrition. They automatically assumed that I had no clue about healthy eating and proper nutrition. They never ASKED me. I was not allowed to spend my WIC money on organic milk (I asked), I couldn't go to a Farmer's Market and use it.”

“So arc, your solution is to go back to the 'good old days' when churches and private charities took care of the less fortunate? Maybe I read my history wrong but I thought that world never existed. The old ways resulted in malnourished children and worldwide depressions.

Sure the welfare system has major shortcomings but eliminating it isn’t a reasonable solution. I’d like to think we live in an evolving society.

To go back to your original post, I don’t really see what a critique of the German system, where the government controls a huge percentage of GNP, has to do with us.”

“Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

Churches, friends, and charities were a great help. Yes there were people who suffered in this system, just as in any other. People who think we can control and protect everyone’s life are deluded. We have come up with new and different systems. Creating a tax burden means that some people can’t afford to send their kids to college. A less educated populace is bad for everyone in society. It is mostly the well educated who pay the tax burden and invent new life saving technologies. A less expensive national system can serve as a last resort "safety net", and if we can augment it with churches and charities, why shouldn’t we?

Where do you and Newgirl read "eliminating" from? There is no logic to your position. It seems that a lot of people automatically take extreme opposition positions when someone doesn't agree completely with them. You shouldn't fall into that trap. Don't assume.

You don’t see why a system that has “evolved” into a “humane” welfare State has anything to do with us? When people push for more government protection, higher taxes to cover ever expanding social programs, and fight a shift from welfare to workfare, you don’t see any lessons to be learned? You don’t see anything relavant in a people’s growing dependence on government? See my first sentence, violin.”

“I had to go back and look over your past posts, arclite. No you hadn't advocated anything extreme. I guess I got confused by some of the 'noise' posts. I don't think I disagree with much of what you say.

Thing is, to get from where we are now to something better will take a public investment. For one thing, dependable child care is needed so single mothers can go to work. People without job skills need some help to get trained. People may even lack decent clothing for a job interview.

Many people have been trapped into a generational cycle of dependence, which is not a humane system and is a waste of human potential.”

“I couldn't agree more, violin. A few years back, we had an employee opinion survey about what we would like to see improved at work. I suggested child care. My cooworkers looked at me in disbelief and said, "But you don't have any kids." (at least not that I know of). Duh! So what, I'd be willing to pay for it. I'd rather support child care than more welfare. I love it when people work hard to get themselves out of a bad situation. I'll support that every time.”

“Don't make me like you, Arc.
I do think that most reasonable people can come to agreement on welfare. And, I do appreciate those who don't push extremism. I, too, think that some of the best therapy available for most people, (myself included), is a good days work. I do know someone who truly thinks she is entitled to be given money from the Big Government. She seems to be a miserable person, and I think work would do her a world of good. She is the lone example that I can think of who truly feels this way. Every other welfare recipient I know personally, would love to find a good job. They can find plenty of bad jobs that aren't sufficient to get them off of welfare. Therein lies the problem!”

“I live in Orange County CA, so when I'm in L.A. I'm a stranger in a strange land. When I started working in L.A. it was a little scary. One day I went to the bank with a co-worker during lunch (I have direct deposit, so I rarely go into a bank). There were 2 distinct lines in the bank. We were directed to one of them. Everyone in it looked alike, dressed for work and in a hurry to do their banking then get to lunch. Everyone in the other line looked alike too, all female, all with kids. I had no clue what that line was, then one of the ladies in it started yelling that she shouldn't have to wait in that line, she should be able to get into our line (it was shorter and moved faster). The guard kept her in that line and explained that we were on lunch hours and she could wait we couldn't, She kept protesting. I was disturbed for several reasons, it was kinda jacked up that they were in a special line, and that she felt so entitled to that money, it kinda seemed like that was her payday for her "job", but not everyone is like that.”

“You guys hit the nail on the head about dependable child care. This is the main reason I live in an economically depressed rural area. My mother runs a daycare, taaadaaaa, good, low-cost, dependable child care. I couldn't find a better place, for such a low cost for Newergirl if I tried. This is a huge issue. Also, Arc, I guess I was confused about what you were saying as well. Sorry! What it boils down to is trying to find a way to keep the leeches out of the system. Having benefited from it at one point & done it w/ honesty, I saw first hand how these types made a neg. name for others in need & how the sucked taxpayers dry. I would point out again, it is very important to go in w/ the goal to get off assistance asap. People can very easily get trapped in a downward spiral that can lead to generational dependence on welfare.”

“But, we can all agree that corporate welfare and arms dealers rip off the American people for many many times the amount of money that welfare cheats do.”

“Dunadan, Corporate welfare and arms dealers seem to be a different subject, but one worthy of discussion.

Seems corporations are in business because they too a risk to get started and all they do is a risk. Let them risk it and it truly is survival of the fittest in a free market. I f a corporation goes under, they workers get absorbed into healthier ones, and those that caused it to go under, don't get such a good paying job in the next corporation. Does any one feel bad for those fat cat corporate execs??

Arms dealers are truly a supply and demand business. When you are at war, or readying to make war, you want to win, and only the very best will do. Thus the price goes up, up, up.”

“Actually, probably should have a new thread for that last post. Back on subject:

Welfare. Most people I see on welfare have CHOSEN to do all the things that got them in the situation they are in now. Then they claim it is not their CHOICE to be on welfare. You know, if I CHOOSE to shoot myself in the foot, I shouldn't be saying I didn't CHOOSE a broken foot. Yet, that is exactly what a lot of welfare cases are doing.

Granted, you'll be hearing a lot of stereotyping here, but generally there is a reason for the stereotyping.

Case one involves a high school dropout, who "can't" get a job. This high school dropout CHOSE to drop out, against his parents, school administrators, friends and peers wishes and suggestions. He CHOOSES not to develop the basic work habits enough to even finish high school. Millions successfully complete high school every year. It truly is not that hard to do. Then he doesn't develop the work ethic to get or keep a job. And he says it is not his CHOICE to be on welfare. He CHOSE to quit school, that is truly a training ground for employment. He CHOSE to do all the things that landed him where he is now.

Case two is the divorced mother. She marries this bum, who after two kids, dissappears. You say then, it is not her fault, or her children's. I'll agree the children have ZERO fault here, and it is truly unfortunate for them. But her???? No way. Him, oh yeah, plenty of fault for the missing Dad. Either she CHOSE to marry the bum too soon to know him (and that's never good, marrying before you know some one), or she knew him long enough to know what he was made of and CHOSE to marry him anyways. She also CHOSE to ignore her parents warnings and advice, she CHOSE to ignore her friends warnings, she CHOSE to say "Love will keep us together" or "He'll get better" Or "We'll find a way". She CHOSE to ignore her own better judgment, and was infatuated. She CHOSE to all the things that got her where she is today.

I don't want to seem to be picking on pregnancy here but much welfare sadly involves the little ones. Unmarried pregnancy produces bastards, an ugly sounding word in disuse today, as it blames the child, not the parents. I believe the PC term is "single parent children". I like that term much better.

Case three involves the unmarried couple who have a child. They didn't CHOOSE this life style??? Come on, you know better by now. They CHOSE to do all the things to get them where they are today. They CHOSE to have illicit sex, with out any committment or preplanning for children. How many of you, while living as a teen, would ask permission to have their boyfriend or girlfriend spend the night, from your parents? It is pretty much instilled in all teens that this is a forbidden apple. Yet, too many CHOOSE to partake of the forbidden fruit. Tempting, yes. Peer pressure, sure. Final decision, THEIRS. Once again, they CHOSE to do all the things that got them where they are today.

Welfare living is no piece of cake. I have nothing but sadness for those few who truly have to live on welfare. But all these people who are in a bad situation, mostly because they CHOSE to all the things that landed them right where they are today.... It is because of them that so much of my money, hard earned at that, is forcibly taken from me without my permission, and squandered, that I have so little sympathy for them. For the children brought up in poverty, my hope is they can CHOOSE to stay in school, CHOOSE to work hard and make something of them selves. America does not owe you a lifestyle, America owes you an opportunity, and you'll get it when you get hired for that first minimum wage job. CHOOSE to take a good shot at it.

They CHOSE to do all the things that got them where they are today. I say to them, CHOOSE do all that is required to get you out of the situation you are in now. It will seem that it will take you a long time to get out of it, but it also took you a long time to get into it. Get a job. Volunteer, if you can't get a job. You'll develop a reputation then, and make some contacts to get a job. Develop that work ethic. Don't call in sick when you aren't, get to work on time, work hard and learn. Go back to school. CHOOSE to do all the things you should have. Work two jobs if you must, then I won't have to work a second job for you. Soon you'll find yourself INVITED to my home and I will CHOOSE to feed you dinner, and you can CHOOSE to reciprocate to me, and we'll be fast friends!!!

Why do I feel a disclaimer is now needed??? Sure you can show a case of a truly needy welfare recipient, and I can do the same. But, honestly, you can also show me a hundred scams (I can show you a hundred, I've renovated enough buildings to know) for every one that is not a scam. If you can't, or rather won't, show me the scams, I say to you that you are woefully ignorant, perhaps by your own CHOICE. Educate yourself. Volunteer to help those on welfare, aim for the truly needy one you champion, and see the abuse. I was forced to, by working on renovations to the housing and finally had to CHOOSE to work elsewhere. I couldn't stand to see the abuse any more. Yes, my opinion is jaded. But the opinions that are genuine, are the opinions that have experience behind them. I'm guessing I'll get blasted here, and I'll ignore the ignorant, but I will welcome comments from those who have experience on their side.”

“This is the best thread I've read in probably 6 months.

This is an international problem. There is no quick and easy way around it.In OZ the Conservative Goverenment(ironically call the Liberal Party) is trying different things to get people off the dole and reduce welfare payments. We get gems called work for the dole, you have to rock up at a place where they give you a job, that's meant to increase your chances of getting employment later. These jobs are beauties, weeding traffic islands, painting cyclone fences around parks, cleaning public toilets, etc. If you break the law they give you similar jobs and call it "Community Service".
If we spent less on defence, less on advertising how the Government was getting things done(the Government spent more on advertising than any body else!) and instituted proper work place training we could reduce the cycle of welfare dependance.”

“This is a whole different subject. On one side you have the group that says you can not prepare for war and peace at the same time. On the other side you have the group that says the best defense is a good offence.

If your military is strong enough, people will think twice about attacking you. It won't stop them all, witness Yamamoto (Japan in WWII) and Bin Laden. But it does put you in a pretty decent position to retaliate and defend the ideals that make this country great.

The reason it is so expensive and chews up a big chunk of the budget is this: Put in big company terms. No company is in business to primarily provide themselves with security, and give out benefits to all the employees without requiring a return for the dollar. When you think about it, business wise defence and benefits are not a real good idea. No return for the dollar will drive a business out of business. Unfortunately, it is the military that was responsible for creating this country and keeping it a country, I fear that we can remain so with out the military.”

“The terms "bastard" and "illegitimate" have been PC'ed out. It makes people feel bad about themselves and their origins. Hell, I'm adopted. I know I'm a bastard, and a real b!tch to boot. Doesn't slow me down or make me feel bad. I just consider where I might be now if I hadn't been "given up."”

“Some good posts here.
Aren't there countries that have a full employment statute? Seems like I've heard of this.
If, in a capitalistic society, there is a constant percentage of unemployment, won't there always be a certain percentage of welfare recipients?
Bunyip, I agree, this problem is global. I just talked to my daughter, who is studying in England about this very subject. How do you legislate fairness into the system? How do you help people become more industrious and self sufficient? There are some people who are going to be slackers, no matter what. Most of them are just lucky that their bosses don't fire them.”

“You made lots of good points about the choices people make that result in them seeking welfare. I would agree that some of those choices, like being a h.s. drop-out w/ no work ethic, are no one else's fault & the person does not deserve any welfare assistance. However, I think what you had to say about divorced mothers & unmarried couples is unfair. First, it is silly to believe that in every case a woman knows immediately if a man is "no-good." I my own case, it was the enormous financial & emotional stresses of dealing w/ an unplanned pregnancy that exposed for the first time, some of Belowzero's problems. I was w/ him for 2 1/2 yrs. when I first saw them. I made the decision at 7 months pregnant that the baby & myself would be healthier if I left until he was willing to seek help. Thank the Lord Above, 1 1/2 yrs. later, he got help & we are planning to wed. During the time in-between I did what I had to do to care for my daughter (including working, getting an education, and humbly asking for help). Are you saying that a married woman w/ children, who 2, 3, 4, or even 5 yrs. in recognizes for the 1st time that her husband has some serious problems (which affect her & her children's health & happiness) should remain in the relationship, because it is her own fault for not recognizing it sooner? All that to avoid the possibility of her needing some type of welfare assistance? I would think that her leaving greatly increases the chances that she will be able to better contribute to society & her children's well-being. And everyone knows that a well cared for child in a stable environment is more likely to be a success. As for the unmarried couple, I admit that I made a choice to have pre-marital sex (although I believe that the sit. wouldn't have been diff. had I been married). I was on the pill, which has something like a 2-3% failure rate. I knowingly took the risk (like millions of people all over the world do everyday). Are you saying that the couples everywhere who engaged in premarital sex & end up w/ an unplanned pregnancy, should not do everything they can to care for their child, even if it means seeking welfare assistance? Would it be better if everytime an unplanned pregnancy occurs the couple just chooses abortion, rather than takes responsibility? Do you really think being married guarantees only planned pregnancies? I agree that there are many, many system scammers. They disgust me, too. Again, I give away alot about my personal life in order to make a point. Hopefully, it helps you to see the other side of the coin. The questions I ask you are in order for me to better understand your side, not to inflame. I would also add, that I have never once felt that America owed me anything at all. I had to face 2 things . . . humiliation & humiliation. First, I had to face the humiliation of concieving a child I was not fully financial prepared to support and then the humiliation of having to ask American taxpayers to help me. It was a VERY humbling event in my life. I assure you that not every person "on the dole" thinks that they can make whatever decisions, regardless of risk, because America OWES them.”

“Just help this stay at the top, so we can continue an interesting, intelligent, and fun conversation.”

“I have to say I am a bit surprised but not totally against what Uphillklimber has to say about making choices given to us in life. Yes, I too, made some choices in my mid-20's that put me into a position where I did have to make some very hard decisions. I was doing something to make my life better by getting a higher education, but at the same time, got pregnant by my boyfriend who had no intentions of starting a family or being a productive member of society. After I told him I was pregnant, he asked if I had considered having an abortion and I replied that I did, but couldn't live with myself if I did. He replied, "Oh your one of those" and I said, "don't you want to do something with your life?" He replied, "I guess you've got to want to." I said, "yes, you do", so my "choice" at this point was to bring the child up on my own without any assistance from him. So, with my "choice" I had to struggle for some time between working part-time, full-time, or not working at all, depending on the economy or what type of work I "chose" to do at that time. Between jobs or working part-time there were times that I did have to ask for assistance for either WIC, welfare checks, or food stamps, believe me, I didn't find that too much fun....I can see how newgirl feels about low-self esteem and degradation, when you are subjected to ask for help. Everyone, no matter who you are, receive the same kind of treatment as everyone else when you walk through those doors, they put everyone in the same catergory, thinking that if they are here asking for help, then your no good. I can imagine that it is difficult for a caseworker to truly "feel" for the ones who really would rather not be there at all, where there are soo many people asking for help. I have seen too up front and personal some that truly DON'T need the assistance they "THINK" they deserve. They are the ones, that give a bad name, to the ones that truly need the help.

I also did "choose" to get an apartment using more public assistance, Section 8 public housing. I "choose" to use Section-8 rather than living in subsidized housing units such as housing projects. Section-8 has strict guidelines, but gave me the opportunity to "choose" my own apartment, rather than putting me in one of the subsidized housing units. I "chose" an apartment that fit our needs. I considered myself pretty lucky that I could "choose" an apartment that had a yard, and yes, parking off-street, located stragically near work and school. I also "chose" where to send my daughter to school, which I wanted to give her a good foundation with which to get a start in life, so I "chose" to send her to a parochial school for the first 6 years. When she became a teenager, she "chose" to go to public school, which I agreed to as long as her grades where kept up...the basics she needed to help get a start in life was learned well in these first few years at parochial school.

After all of the choices I've made to raise my daughter alone with some help from family and best friends, which not everyone has that opportunity, I have to say that I did need help some of the time, but always strived to be totally self-suffienct, which I have achieved. I have a Drafting Certificate and a Bachelor's degree in Industrial Technology, own my own home and my daughter graduated from high school without getting pregnant or getting into any trouble. She did get accepted to Maine Maritime Academy.

So, through the many "choices" we are faced with everyday, albeit, my first choice to have sex without thinking of the consequences, my first bad "choice", I took what I had to work with and make the best of it. Some people don't have the support of family members, friends, or self-esteem to carry them through what they are faced with. Everyone can make good or bad choices, it's what "we" decide to do with them that counts.”

“newgirl, as I have said earlier my hat is off to you. You used welfare where you need it, from what you are posting. As did Slasher75. She has greatly impressed me with how she did what she has done and gotten to be quite a remarkable lady. In case you do not know, we are to be wed this April 27th. Yes, my opinion, as earlier stated is jaded, and I recognize where much stereotyping comes from, but I am not totally without understanding for those who need welfare.


I do not take your questions as to inflame. I went back and read my posts. I have to say I'm a bit heavy handed. (Sorry). You ask legitimate questions. I will answer them.

People marrying bums (of both genders). As I said earlier, I think all the signs are there, often ignored, sometimes hard to see. Parents and friends often counsel against the relationship. But what can you say to those head over heels in love. They hear it all and see all the signs and choose to ignore it all. Many are too immature (at whatever age) to properly judge what they want or need in a relationship. I don't know what a good time frame is in every relationship to properly judge. But I do know this. No body is perfect. They show their character flaws. It is truly only a matter of time. Then you see the flaws, as well as the strong personality traits. Many choose wisely, many do not....

You make a valid point of the person who RECOGNIZES the flaws several years in. It is too bad that they did not recognize it earlier. But here is where they are now. What to do??? Ultimatums are never fun. Abuse or health being compromised is a VALID reason to leave, and that is what welfare is for. It is for your welfare. It was never intended to become the way of life it has for so many. And it is often not easy to get yourself back on your feet. BUT, it can be done, and those that do, have my utmost respect.

Unplanned pregnancies really throw a monkey wrench into the works, married or not. If dating, how committed are the couple to each other? For that matter, how committed are married couples??? That's a dicy question.... Married couples have at least this over unmarried. They have verbally pledged to stick by each other and work through any problem, come what may. You know the vows, for richer or poorer... to love and to hold.... BTW, to love is a verb, an action, to be practiced on each other. Your question was doing all you can to support and care for your children. My contention is that, as the parents, the primary care provider, do all you can to provide the care, before asking (or demanding) anyone else to do so. If you truly do need assistance, by all means go get it!!! But please, only if you truly need it. Quite obviously, I will never advocate the stopping of a beating heart....

Once again, as I have said earlier, not every one on the dole is scamming the system. It is just my observation, from my work in the low income housing units, that way too many are on the dole-scamming us. That's right you and me, the taxpayers. I really do not want to sound like I am against all welfare recipients. I have seen some who work and receive help. I have seen way too many that do not work, who can...and ...well ,... I'll let that go for now...

I do want to repeat, I have the utmost respect for those on welfare who do work to get off it. My hat is to you.”

“Thanks Uphill. And I will repeat again, I agree that there are hundreds, thousands, of scammers out there. As Slasher said, too bad that they make a bad name for everyone else. I have seen first hand just how carefully these people scam us. Hopefully someday we will have a system that successfully spots these people and keeps them off the dole. Until then, take comfort in the fact, that you might be helping one or two families get on their feet.”

“My friend knew of a girl who was scammin' from two seperate counties within the same state (she was living in two counties) and STILL didn't get busted when she reported her for it. WTF?”

“It's not just the scammers that harm society. When we start accepting welfare as a catch-all for stupid behavior, we condone stupid behavior.

One of my favorite poster children, for the "humane" welfare advocates, was a guy out west somewhere. It may have been New Mexico, I forget where they said. This guy had no skills, no education, and yet he had five kids and was flipping burgers at McDonalds. Actually, he was the poster child for raising minimum wage. He didn't seem to be mentally retarded and the report did not mention it. Did anybody talk about stupid choices? No, they condoned his choices almost as if he just couldn't help his condition. I find lack of personal responsibility disturbing.”

“I have to concur with arclite.

I don't have any problems helping people who are down on their luck. But I don't want to perpetually fund someone's lazy, irresponsible behavior.

My mother-in-law is Dutch. In Holland, the dole is unbelievable. You actually have a decent standard of living on it. And while there are people who do take advantage of the government (she had one in her family) they are the minority. Why? Because in Holland, it's considered shameful to do such a thing. Your family and friends berate you until you find a job, if you stay on the dole too long. Now don't read me wrong, it's not the being on the dole that's shameful, it's the STAYING for long periods of time that is. So their system works a little better. Their biggest problem is immigrants from old Dutch possessions, who hold Dutch citizenship, moving back to Holland and going on the dole and never getting off.

Oh, and another point. In Holland, if you ain't a citizen, no govt. money, except for maybe the child support money that everybody with kids in Holland gets.”

“Bitpusher, I lived in Holland for awhile & I don't follow what you are saying at all. You say that the majority of people consider it shameful, but everyone gets child support from the gov. for their kids. I lived w/ a family that was making somewhere in the range of 500 to 800 thousand DOLLARS a yr. They got the equivalent of 300 DOLLARS a month for ea. of their kids. Doesn't that seem a bit shameful?”

“Excuse me New girl, did you say $800,000.00 a year!!!!? And the government still gave them $300.00 a month for their kids???? I am so confused, did i read that right??”

“Of course, they never revealed the actual figures to me, but I am certain that they were making at least $500,000. He is a doctor, she holds a lofty government position. They told me that everyone gets the gov. child support. If you make less, you get more for your children. If you make more, you get less for your children (but you still get something). They lived in a wealthy neighborhood in Haarlem. Their next door neighbors also recieved money for their kids. This couple was a physicologist (sp?) and a lawyer. Doesn't that seem utterly ridiculous.”

“Bitpusher may know some real exact figures about Holland's welfare system Uphill, but it is unbelievable. They have some really great benefits for their citzens, but they also have a system that is in over its head.”