Drilling in Lockheart Basin region of Ut ah

“I was greatly saddened today, I read in the NY Times that the Bush administration will now allow oil drilling in the Lochheart Basin region of Utah. For anyone that has never been
there this is the region surrounding Canyonlands NP and it is spectacular. This is what you get when you elect a President and Vice President with deep ties to the oil industry. Forget
about raising the mpg on cars that would save more oil than could possibly be drilled in this region. Let's just drill so that the big corporations can line their pockets ( and we've seen
just how criminal they can be) at the expense of land that is so precious, so awesomely beautiful. I have no doubt that future generations will look back at us and be ashamed at how
shortsighted we were. Enjoy this land while the views are still unobstructed by oil rigs.”

“i hate hearing those kind of stories”

“how come no one complains when it's some desert?”

“Oil revolutionized the world...from medicine to communications...to space exploration..All you bleeding hearts ever do is complain as you type on your petroleum based keyboards..relax in your polyester socks...and bask in the glow of Fossil fuel based electricity..A sad group of whiners man!”

“Did Bugjuice say no one should drill ANYWHERE? No. In this instance the knee-jerk reaction is yours.

I'm sure there are places that you wouldn't like to see developed as an oil field either. Or am I wrong?”

“ws.davies, I don't get it , you visit a site like this so you obviously have a interest in backpacking and the outdoors, so how can you have such a uncaring attitude? Unless things change these
battles are just going to increase as fossil fuels become more scarce and I'm sure that the land is going to lose. Where do you draw the line? Are National Parks going to be in
jeopardy next? I'm sure that you have this type of attitude because you have never been to this region, so I urge you to do yourself a favor and load up your gas guzzling SUV and
visit this part of Utah. I'm sure that if you have any passion for the wilderness you will see the importance of preserving this awe inspiring region. On a side note, I wouldn't necessarily consider myself a liberal, I'm more of a moderate on most issues, but if being passionate about preserving this region makes me a bleeding heat liberal I'm guilty as charged.”

“When i drove into canyonlands from the old potash road i beleive i was viewing a bit of that area.
It was a an awesome area.
The amount of oil pproduced from there will probably euqual the amount that would be saved if the state of utah kept their tires properly inflated for about a month.
However, as dick cheney say "conservation is a personal virtue"-thats his sarcasm not mine....”

“WS is right in some ways. Where would I be without my latex thong and patten pleather school girl shoes?

No one likes to see this (the drilling for oil, that is) but this is the origanal reason these lands became public properties. For their natural resources. I would rather see drilling on American soil than on forine soil simply because we will have a higher level of responability in the process and any clean up will be more complete. Drilling doesn't mean the land will be destroyed. Before the Alaskan pipeline went in all the tree huggers were saying that Alaska would be done for. It's still there and very vibrant. But again, I'm sorry it was you back yard this time and not someone else's.”

“Get all the people that's in Salt Lake city, for the Olympics to petition against this. That's sure to get a lot of T.V coverage.”

“here is the link to the article

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/08/politics/08UTAH.html”

“Nigal..... I wanna see YOU dressed up!! LOL (I'm getting a vision here....eeeeeeeeeeeeeek!)

I am definitely against this! (Course you guys all know my "bleeding heart liberal" tendencies by now. lol) This kinda thing just sucks. It is a gorgeous area -- if ya like red rocks. And the Anasazi Indian history in the area with cliff dwellings and rock art is priceless.

Oil was kept out of the Grand Staircase/Escalante... so how did this happen? It would seem this must be a Wilderness Study Area or something. Where the heck has the Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance (SUWA) been? I suppose they've tried their darndest.

I'd gotten a book on hiking, which includes that area, cuz I love hiking Utah. Go here for a page of info from SUWA:
Lockhart Basin info

So would you like to see what this area looks like? Take a look at this shot I took (and am in). I guess you'd just have to imagine oil rigs off in the distance. WOW, THAT WOULD SURE BE PRETTY.

Grand View Point vista from Islands in the Sky section of Canyonlands National Park

Think of screwing that up!”

“Also, aren't we in Afghanistan to get some oil outta there?”

“I live in the heart of oil production...I'm surrounded by refineries and oil wells, and honestly it doesn't bother me...Why? Because I realize what oil has meant to the improvement of life around the globe. I feel it's extremely important that for the sake of national security that we maintain a certain level of national oil production..To do this we are going to have to drill were the oil is...Heck it'd be great if it was all located in Kansas, but that just isn't the case. Over the course of time oil supplies will begin to dwindle and alternative energy sources will become a much more feasable choice..the forces of supply and demand and common sense economic practice will enable us to move into the future without sacrificing the lifestyle that we've built for ourselves...and if you don't agree..move to Rwanda for a couple of years and then come back and tell me how bad things are here in the US.”

“I think it's important that instead of bemoaning the lack of alternative sources we also look at how far we've come. These things never happen fast enough for us to be happy, but they do happen. If yopu have a problem with all the gas guzzlers please do your part and go buy one of those "It" scooter thingys and sell your car. LOL! Hey, you want the alternatives, there they are. Go get it. How many of you own one of the hybrid cars?”

“Sorry WS, Canyonlands isn't the place for a well. Your backyard sounds like a MUCH better place.

When they created Canyonlands NP, I don't think they had drilling in mind. They created these public lands us to enjoy.”

“Hey, do you remember Exxon Valdes? This was a super tanker that ran into a reef. Do you realize that all of our imported oil is shipped in these Supertankers. Some of them are much MUCH bigger then the Valdes.
Look at the Trans Alaskan Pipeline. Look at how much oil ha spilled out of it. Even just look at how much would spill out if it ruptured. How can you compare the damage between the two? I would much rather have a domestic drilling field that will do very little harm (besides some cosmetic) then have these Huge tankers threatening entire massive ecosystems at a time. I'll take minimal controlled damage over possible massive damage anyday.”

“WS...Thankyou for your kind reference to Kansas. This state has already been drilled from one end to the other, however, and most wells are plugged or waiting for the prices to go up.”

“The biggest problem with current "oil" saving technology is that it is electric. People are much too eager to jump on board and use only electric engines and fail to see that the electricity comes from coal and oil burning plants. If we want to remove America's dependence on oil, I say forget targeting the SUV's. The big culprit is the power industry. I say start spending those anti-SUV campaign dollars on nuclear fusion or other alternative large scale energy research. I think that would be a bigger step in the right direction then upping MPG limit or forcing mass transit. And plus, would you really trade auto traffic for a bunch of loud smelly busses spewing black smoke? Me either.”

“Dunanden..Isn't Kansas Colorado's assshole?..hehe..Sorry I was thinking my odds were good in going with Kansas..You got to admit it's not the most beautiful state in the nation...DMarch I'm with you on Nuclear Power, and it's been proven that it can be now done safely...but these types don't care...It's one big red stop sign everywhere you look..These sorts don't want practical common sense solutions...they only want it their way...and guess what they want YOU to pay for it..Screw that”

“Yes, I would trade auto traffic for a bunch of busses. The public transportation busses in my area aren't loud, smelly, or spew black anything. They are fueled with natural gas.

I would drive a hybrid car if they had been available when I bought my car five years ago. My mother does drive a hybrid.

I am in favor of nuclear power, even though almost all the nuclear waste in the country will pass through my county if they ever open the Yucca Mountain depository.

We could produce much more of our electricity from wind and bio-mass if our national energy policy encouraged that. We could dramatically reduce the growth in electricity demand through efficiency and conservation, and save a ton of money in the process.

I think it makes much more sense to increase the CAFE standards than to open public lands to oil and gas exploration, especially since oil drilling in almost all of these areas would be unproffitable at current oil prices.”

“i agree with wsd about supply and demand will eventually make alternative energy more feasible than oil.
However,OIL prices in the usa are only partly determined by supply/demand.OIL here is subsidized by the GOVT(the billions we have spent on the afgham war,persian gulf war,keeping the mid east stable...it is a very expensive subsidy program).
I would dare this admin to just allocate a small fraction of oil subsidy programs to alternative energy research.
Our oil consumption is our national drug habit.Our demand for poor handling SUVs is proof enough of our addiction.
Conservation although money saving and costing nothing but a little prudence is seen as blasphemous.I dont understand why oil conservation is so reviled especially when it would reduce the need to drill in pristine places.”

“wsdavies, I don't know where you're from, but Kansas is beautiful. sheesh!”

“Oil conservation is so reviled because any kind of "mandatory" conservation is seen as one of the many "losses of freedom" I hear about from right-wing reactionary boneheads.

This kind of simple minded sure thinking has been trumpeted by the vast conservative propaganda machine over the years.

Corporate America helps to keep us bickering over these issues and nothing much of substance is accomplished for the public good.

They've got us right where they want us.....Mooooooooohahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahaha!!!”

“The root word of activism is "active". Quit beeatchin' and get active then.”

“Right on, brother!

What, like I gotta get my assss in gear?”

“Yeah! Git Yer Asssss In Gear, LOL! The vote on campaign finance reform comes up THIS WEEK, so go rattle some cages! Reduce the undue influence of extractive industries.

Let's try to at least restore the appearance of democracy!”

“oh yeah, blame it on the suv again. some of you are quite comical, especially those that rattle on about one type of vehicle while they drive around in another. hypocritical type behavior is quite shallow and doesn't lend much creedence to any arguement you might present.”

“yes, one vehicle,The SUV,consumes double the gas,is uncontrollable by its driver due to its poor handling and design and basic physics,is deadly vs normal cars in accidents.90% of suvs never make it off road-their intended purpose.
A real horror show of a vehicle.

-SUVs,proud sponsor of 9-11...gas hog”

“they consume twice as much gas as what? a civic? that's a strong staement saying they are uncontrollable by their driver. under what circumstances are you speaking of? where can i find the information you are giving me? i would argue they have many intended uses and target markets, one being off-road use. what do you mean by deadly -vs- normal car in accident? i am hearing much of your perception here and can't find any facts. all vehicles depend on oil. so using this fact and if you wish to blame somebody you could say all vehicles and everyone that drives one were the proud sponsors. quit being hypocritical. it's not very becoming.”

“did i read a few weeks ago that they were now focusing on fuel cells instead of hybrid vehicles with the government funded r&d?”

“Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!”

“Again, I must pose the question, Why isn’t anyone b!tchin’ about the vans on the road? They have the same basic handling flaws as SUVs, use just as much gas, and are just as damaging in a collision. Everyone who b!tches and moans about SUVs and how they never get taken off road are a bunch of wankers. They have this mind set that says that if you own an SUV you must drive it to the top of a sand dune and snowboard down, you must be in some canyon in the middle of nowhere, or you must be hauling your gear out to the middle of nowhere to do some gawd awful extreme activity of some sort or another. You are more jaded by ads than the fools that buy SUVs thinking it will make them cool. How can you hypocrites complain about gas guzzling SUVs and then b!tch in the same breath that they never get taken off road?! If everyone took their SUVs off road like you say they should you’d be right back here b!tching about how they are tearing up the backcountry. Is there any winning with you wankers?

Then there is the final question, why do I have to justify my choice in vehicals and how that vehical is used to anyone? What I need in a vehicle is 4 x 4 for snow and ice, I want to be able haul sh!t but don’t want a pickup, something I can throw my kayak on. So you tell me, what the hell am I supposed to buy then? A Civic just ain’t gonna do it. I bought the Jeep because it fits my needs, not because it was a fad.

Again, I say, wankers, all of ya.”

“Yer all a bunch a wankers! 8)”

“Having been in the oil and gas industry for the past 20+ years, I can hinestly say that the "cleanest" areas of drilling and production is on public (BLM) lands. The "dirtiest" areas are those on private lands. Why? Because the rules and regulations to drill and produce on BLM land are VERY strict. The oil companies aren't the big bad wolves of the early years of oil and gas exploration.

Did you know, that practicly everything in ANY car, SUV or Civic, is petroleum based? i.e. plastics, rubber tires, etc.

In Wyoming, the typical Royalty (Tax) rate on Federal/BLM land is 12.5%. So for every dollar made on oil or gas, 12.5 cents goes to the government. That is BEFORE any other expenses are taken into account. Severance Taxes are typically 6% in Wyoming.

There is a great expense in operating any oil/gas field.

Then there is all the upfront costs.

Cost of acquiring the leases to enable companies to drill.

Costs of annual rentals to keep the leases.

Cost of seismic programs to find the structures to drill on.

Cost of drilling to find ther oil/gas.

Cost of labor for engineers, geologists, geoscientists, etc.

In the year 2000, in Wyoming, Ad Valorem (Property Tax) and Severance Taxes totaled ~$418 Million dollars, or nearly $1000 for every person living in Wyoming.

Personally, I would not want or even be able to pay out the extra $4000 in taxes.

Wyomings petroleum industry direcetly employed over 17,000 people with an annual payroll of over $600 million dollars for an average annual salary of over $35,000.

Just some real facts to think about.

So go ahead, fire away.”

“b66
90% of suv's never make it off road ergo its never used for its intended purpose.
name me an suv that has better handling than a car?suvs even come with rollover warnings.Try changing lanes quickly at 30,40,60mph in one and see how controllable and safe it is.driving one requires greater skill than a car.
would you rather be in an explorer or honda in an accident?that answers the deadliness issue,right.
vans are bought and used for their intended use-transport.You dont see peeps driving them to social functions.When was the last time u tried impressing a date with yer mini van or econoline?hahaha
Most suvs are used for daily city driving which is totally stupid since they add somuch more risk to the driver and other drivers on the road...
suv's r fine for their intended use but city driving?no way”

“"suv's r fine for their intended use but city driving?"

So what is the intended use? If you say off roading you fit the perfect example of a wanker I gave above. 8) My Jeep can do anything a van can do (just as safely) AND it is good in the snow. Are you saying we should have a seperate car for seperate things? One for off roading? One for transporting people? And the funniest, impressing a date on a social outting? This is where the "U" comes into SUV. My Jeep does all these things, except impress people.”

“Impress a date???
What means that?

I think a lot of people use their SUV's for more than just suckin' down gas.

They usually make a fine family car.

THank goodness that all those suburbanites don't go joy-ridin' in the mud with those things.

For what its worth, those SUV'ers are keepin' a lot of good UNION brothers and sisters workin' buildin' those vee-hickles.

Nigal-
They make kayaks that BIG?

They are all wankers!”

“"Nigal-
They make kayaks that BIG?"

Yeah. I just got one of the two seat ocean going vessles and ripped out the front seat. LOL!”

“I'm laughing and people are staring!

I tried a kayak last summer and I don't think it was big enough.
I needed help getting out and thank goodness I didn't roll it!”

“isnt there a enviro-politico bash area on this forum?”

“I think it might be the Why Isn't This a Law? thread.

Hey, I also wanted to show everyone that ol' Nigal doesn't talk out one side of mouth
(it's usually out my a@@) when encouraging others to get active. So without further adue I would now like to introduce you to what all the compassionate conservatives are driving this year...

Live to Ride,
Ride Live!




It's about the same thing only about 5 years older. Only a grand and it gets a wonderful 65 MPG. I'm cutting my gas use from 22 gallons a week to about 3 gallons a week for six months of the year. And lets not forget, chicks dig the choppers!”

“Oh, what's your's......Candy Dark Red?”

“Yes and jest as sweet! I told the wife I was going to get one of those old style helmets that look like half a pingpongball, goggles and some leather chaps.”

“We could call you "Leather Boy".

Shee-he-he-it!
I wanna bike!”

“Ok, back to Utah. ;-)

Anyone been up to Dead Horse Point State Park? One of the first scenic views you have from there is looking down at...... WHAT THE HELL IS THAT!??! ... This totally huge metallic mess sits in the valley below, ugly as hell. I was horrified. Oh, they have a nice sign there, right by the viewpoint, explaining that it's a plant of some type. I'm thinking Potash.....
Very, very ugly. Can't wait for more..........”

“davex, the poor lane changing capabilities are highlighted by driver inability. i would never offer they handle like a car. what i am saying is the operator is the agent that makes this an issue. the same as the driver that can't control their car. either one that causes an accident is an irresponsible driver. it has nothing to do with suv/non-suv handling capabilities. certainly physics tells me mass rules. any larger vehicle is going to win in an accident. park avenue-vs-civic example. do you get rid of the park avenue also? where do you draw the line? motorcycles are more fuel efficient than cars. cars always win in a motorcycle/car accident. do you get rid of cars and have only motorcycles? i wouldn't, because motorcycles don't offer the utility that people need in one package. cars don't offer that to everyone either. off-road use is not the only intended purpose of suv's in my opinion.”

“SUV's are unjustly maligned. At the average fuel economy of around 21 mpg they still more efficient than about 1/3 of all automobile models currently offered, and would be considered a high fuel efficiency car in the 1970's.

A large number of people live in areas where SUV's and 4WD are essential, not a status symbol. I live in an area where snowfall is measured in feet, not inches, and there are more unpaved and unplowed roads than paved/plowed. Without high-clearance/AWD vehicles everyone would be housebound a good portion of the year.

No one is forcing anyone to buy an SUV. New car dealers have lots of unsold smaller cars on their backlots that are gathering dust. No one wants them despite deep discounts.

So what is the proposal? A government body to determine who is 'qualified' to own a particular type of vehicle? Many here would seem to agree with that idea.”

“station wagons are making a comeback:) look at the new volvo,audi,jetta!,and that new pontiac Vibe thing.SWEET.If i had some xtra bux id be getting me some nice toyota wgn.
maybe you should be tested on your SUV driving ability befor eyou r allowed to purchase or legally allowed to drive one.Cuz i see many people who cant drive em for chit.”

“I love my station wagon. My next car will be a station wagon.

While I'll (likely) never had need and hence never own an SUV, I won't attack everyone else's right to need or have them.”