Choices

“I have been pondering lately and would like to hear some opinions.

Recently, on the welfare state thread, I commented that many of us are where we are by choosing to do the things that got us where we are now. I also mentioned that many divorcee's are divorced because they chose poorly. I know, in my case, that is exactly what happened. I knew better but went ahead and did it anyways... I suspect that many know better, all the signs are there, they have been ignored while in plain site. One person mentioned that was an unfair assessment. It may be, or it may not be. It is unfortunate, but unfair????

When people make choices, and things turn out bad, because of or in spite of the choices, should they bear the brunt of the cosequences? Or should they be bailed out indefinately? With my hard earned tax dollars? With yours? How much help is enough?

I know, I am asking many questions, but would like to see other opinions, and hear some experiences. I'm looking to broaden my realm of thinking.”

“no
yes
no
no
(shoulder shrug)”

“As I said in the Welfare State thread, that the welfare program should be a program that helps people get back on their feet, and helps them figure out why they are in the position they are in, and helps them take steps to get out of their current situation. I think they should have a certain amount of time to get things right (1 year maybe), and then after that, if they are not making an honest effort to help themselves, then they should be on their own. I don't think it's right to carry someone who refuses to carry themselves. We live in a society where a lot of people thinks that someone else owes them a living.”

“I think people who accept welfare should be sterilized. If you can't take care of your kids fine. Don't have any more kids.”

“Where I used to work, I dealt with people involved in the welfare to work program. One of my co-workers would describe conversations with women who's children were in subsidized childcare. A woman would call to say that she was taking her children out of care because she would be home with a new baby (she is supposed to be in school learning work skills). My friend would say "So is the father of the baby going to pay for the care of his child?" And the mother would say "Well he isn't paying for the care of the first two, what makes you think he is going to pay for this one?"

Hellooooooo? Anyone home? Working in social services is incredibly frustrating.

Then there are people who endure incredible bad luck. One woman was in and out of the hospital with very painful disabilities. She finally got her health under control, and got a job and moved out of her sister's home into a rented home that she could afford, just barely. Then there was a fire and she lost two of her three children. At my company we all cried for weeks. We took up a collection for her amongst us all, and our director chastised us, saying that other "clients" could sue because we didn't take up a collection for them. We were required to treat everyone equally. So, like I said, it is frustrating working in social services.”

“CLASSIC Walkindude, classic. We put your answer right up there next to Clint Eastwood, another man of very few words!!!”

“I think that the human experience is not monolithic. Some people make a series of bad choices, some have bad luck. I don't mind my tax dollars helping their children out, I hold them blameless.

The welfare reform act of 1996 limits lifetime benifits to 5 years total and requires work after 2.”

“as far as picking the wrong partner/spouse... the heart wants what the heart wants, there's not a whole lot of logic involved. I think people sometimes need help, but I don't think they should get any direct help until they've admitted there is a problem and have committed to change. Otherwise the problem persists, people continue to have kids and ask for gov'mnt help. A lot of people feel powerless in the world. The mentality that things are done to them by others really puts a damper on acheivement. Until these people begin to exercise their own power they will continue to live off of others. Not a good thing, not a bad thing, just a thing. I feel a similar thing has happened with the populous when it comes to voting, people feel powerless therefore the majority of Americans don't vote, and I think politicians like it that way, if you know you only have to persuade 2 out of 10 Americans to win you really don't even have to put forth an "F" effort.”

“My wife used to do home day-care. We had several children enrolled with us on state subsidized day-care with the single mothers receiving food stamps and WIC vouchers. They were going to college on education grants. Some people criticize this as welfare abuse. About a month ago we ran into one of these mothers at the mall. She told us the subsidies enabled her to finish college and get a good job. She added she kept track of every penny received, and has since paid more in income taxes than she ever received from welfare. Had these programs not been available she would be on welfare to this day.

There are abuses, yes. When we hear stories like this though, I know the system occasionally works.”

“I think that story demonstrates the power people are capable of! You can get bad breaks and make bad choices, and the minute you change your mindset you can change your whole life!”

“So....it was all in her mind that she lacked the education and skills to get a job that paid well enough to support her children. Interesting take donman.”

“no it was totally true she lacked the skills! But some people think that they are incapable of learning the skills when they are not, and some people think "life is supposed to be this way"... Attitude is a lot more important than people think, I was glad the Rams lost the Superbowl, but they did put up better numbers all year long. The Patriots would not even consider losing. If you can conceive it you can acheive it...”

“As far as picking the wrong spouse, I am not qualified to offer an opinion.

My wife and I recently celebrated our 27th anniversary.”

“The term for what donman is referring to is "internal locus of control" or "external locus of control" The former applies to those who feel they have control over their lives and can take action to change their situations; the latter go around whining about how their life sucks and it's not thier fault they don't have a job.”

“thanks for the assist Twiggy! I didn't know what it's called, I just like the rush I feel when all of the sudden I realize I can make a difference, that what I want can count!”

“I enjoy hearing how people are able to overcome after making bad choices. My hat is off to them.

I do not mind helping those out who will rise above "it". I guess I still have a problem with my hard earned dollars being forcibly taken away from me, while I try to rise above "it", by my own dollar. Not so bad when I voluntarily help some one rise above "it", as Habitat for Humanity does.

There are some interesting takes here....”

“I work for a large company, one of the benefits AVAILABLE is education. This company pays $5250 a year for approved schooling... it really isn't difficult to get into, and they approve most anything that you can remotely explain as benefitting the company. There aren't many people here with BA/BS let alone Master degrees, and still a lot of people aren't taking advantage of it. There are a percentage of people out there that WILL NOT help themselves regardless of opportunity.”

“UK, you oughtta attend a legislative hearing when cuts to the entitlement program are on the table. I work in the state budget office, we put together the Governor's budget. This session we were faced with close to a $300M shortfall. The major $$ are in Human Services - Medicaid, Mental Health and Education - GPA. Think we could cut one cent from those programs? Not on your life! The rest of state gov't could be eliminated and wouldn't even touch the shortfall.

First the media jumps all over it, then the public, and then clients come in droves to testify in front of elected officials as to how they can't live without the state services they have become accustomed to. The little agencies all pony up cuts when asked, but the big guys whine, whine, whine. We pull our hair out over it but it doesn't do any good.
If you come up with an answer please share it with us.”

“I know! Ask Ashcroft if a bikini top would be a better solution than a 3,000 curtain?

It's amazing to me to see the $$$ that go into inconceivably stooopid (I use "o"'s to demonstrate level of stupidity) governmental uses that could be better used for taxpayers (i.e. the money that will soon be spent to convince single mothers to get married instead of improving the education system in the US that could decrease the amount of single mothers). Sounds like you are in a horrible situation Twiggy! I think maybe we should consider selling government programs to the private sector and they can advertise all over the program.... enfamil formula dealing with unwed mothers maybe... I don't know. I think we need to do something radically different”

“I agree with bacpac.And people that just sit on ther a## need to get a job.They take too much out of my check now as it is.”

“I would rather give my hard-earned tax dollars to the prototype "welfare queen" than the big businesses that get millions of dollars of their own type of welfare. But then I am just another bleeding heart knee jerk liberal.”

“Regarding bad choices...

My mom has been married 4 times,my father 3. My mom is single my dad isnt.

My mom married the last guy after knowing him 3weeks. He ended up physically abusive,I could do nothing as I was in the service. She left him one day with nothing but her car and 2 sets of clothes (she stopped by the cleaners on the way out).She lived with her family for a few years then with Sass and I. She has NEVER recovered financially from this, a laundry list of short term jobs ( she has a Masters in teaching and has taught taught at the university level many times). He confindence in herself is ZERO. She is slowly gaining her footing and learning to stick difficulties at work out instead of quiting.

My parents were divorced 4 times by the time I was 19. In my family there was every type of abuse imaginable.

What is my point in this?

Life is hard all over. To quote a wise philosopher " You are the @sshole in charge of your own destiny." If you want change,then do what it takes.

I didnt grow up in a family with money. I was not a fortunate son. I have made some incredibly stupid decisions and will carry the burden of them to the grave. I refuse to remake the mistakes of my kin. I will not allow that tradition to continue and I will not let myself down.

Aint nothin' to it but to do it!”

“Nope donman, it's just a job. Frustrating at times yes, but I wouldn't do it if they weren't payin' me, and mostly I like it.

And don't forget, for every unwed mother out there, there's an unwed dad - equally as responsible for the problem, just not as "branded."”

“Twigeater, I agree that unmarried Dads need to get "as branded" also. Many are as deadbeat Dads, but there are many deadbeat Moms also. Gender bias, gender bias.

I know that I can be quite a cynac. But attending a legislative meeting in Augusta is not very easy or practical. Attending a town budget meeting has proven to be easier, though time consuming. At this point, letters are the lobbying method of choice.


Our representatives are elected to represent us, but unfortunately are well lobbied by people that are PAID to be there. If I were to lobby, I would have to LOSE PAY. The other people who are there are often the recipients of the entitlement programs. I wonder how it is that they are not adversely financially affected to be there.... Seems they are able to get their money, but not by working for it, like I have to.
I agree it is very frustrating, on many levels.”

“No doubt!”

“Someone once defined 'luck' as what happens when preparation meets opportunity.

I've always liked that definition. It means you make your own luck.”

“....or....the harder you work,the luckier you get.
also life is how you react to the obstacles put in front of you-however in the case of death of family members yer allowed to go beserk.”

“Whats the other saying.... Luck is the fabric of design...or

"A little government and a little luck are necessary in life; but only a fool trusts either of them." - P.J. O'Rourke”

“I know you don't have that kind of time UK, I'm just saying that you wouldn't believe it if you could see it. Kind of off subject, but at the hearing on proposed Mental Health cuts, clients actually testified that they would commit suicide if their social clubs were closed. The dept heads pony up these types of cuts on purpose, knowing that the politicians won't stand fast under that kind of pressure, therefore their dept will not be cut.

I think it's a lot more than gender bias. Single mothers can't escape the brand and take all the crap. They usually have their kids with them, are paying with food stamps, or some other such thing that makes it obvious they're on welfare. Single dads on the other hand, are generally unencumbered, not easily identifiable, therefore not looked down on in public by others.

My point is that society seems to feel the answer is to add to the pressure of single parenthood by expecting the women (since they are the recipients of our tax dollars) to be wonderparents - work, school AND raise responsible, healty children. We expect nothing of the men - yeah, we want them to pay child support and penalize them if they don't, but their legal responsiblity ends there. We don't require them to spend time with their kids, or belittle them when they aren't improving themselves so they can provide a better life for their children.”

“Jesus, Twigeater, you are like a mind reader or something. My sentiments exactly. I know, from experience, that what you just said is 100% true. When I went through my little "bad choice" situation, lots of my "friends" would tell me I just had to work hard and learn to balance it all. So I worked harder and harder. At the same time they were going out bar hopping w/ him. Not one of them told him he needed to quit drinking and work harder. Not a single person said a word. Needless to say, I do not associate w/ any of those people now. When I give my presentations about young parenting to h.s. students, I am always sure to include a big disucussion about what a masculine, mature father's role is and why it is just as important for him to be fully involved. Maybe the rest of society isn't going to put pressure on them, but I make it a big point.”

“Not a mind reader newgirl, I lived it myself. I wasn't a welfare recipient but definately learned to keep an open mind.

...and btw UK, I'm merely trying to present another opinion like you asked. There are always at least two sides to every story.”

“Twig, what you have to say about what society is expecting the single mom to do is just so right on.

1) Work as hard as possible, as many hrs. as possible, so you can make enough money to stay out of the system.
2) Go to school and study as hard as possible and finish as quickly as possible, so you can make more money to keep you out of the system.
3) Spend as much time w/ your children as possible, so that you can raise them well, form a secure bond, and keep them out of the system.

Don't get me wrong. I WANT to do all of those things, but the pressure is enormous. Meanwhile, they want the father to pay some child support and if he doesn't we'll try to track him down and take it from him. If he just quits working or works for under the table pay . . . your out of luck and you'll just need to work HARDER.”

“yep the unwed dads are part of the problem. But what I think is that saddest part are the stories you hear about women who have multiple babies with the same deadbeat dad and just keep getting more help from the gov'mnt. It's funny because sex is GREAT, and diseases and unwanted pregnancies are the downside, we all know that going in and so many people are not willing to accept that fact. You gotta get car insurance in case of an accident, but nobody seems to care that much about kids.”

“so when that sex happens, the men are....where?
and who has access to birth control...just the women?

Yeah, there are definately deadbeats on both sides, but if ya blame one, blame the other.”

“I do blame both! And blame won't fix the problem, the whole "bootycall" culture thing has got to change, us dudes have got to be responsible, and yall women have got to stop hooking up with the same "bad boy" all the time. These guys don't give a crap about you, or their kids. Responsible people are out of style”

“And it is too bad they are Donman. Personally, I dig it.”

“Twigeater, I want you to know I really do appreciate the education. That was a real eye opener about the mental health cuts. And the comment on the mothers with kids and the father... well, you are right. Real easy for people (myself included) to stereotype the mother with 2 kids using food stamps. But there is no visual identifying a deadbeat Dad. He's probably dressed up real nice, and looks a very respectable part of the community, all on money that probably should go to his kids....

It really is unfair that women do bear more of the "costs". I.E. Providing all the emotional needs of the kids, staying up with them when they are sick, as well as enduring the Welfare offices, and the stares and the inuendo.... ad nauseam.

Maybe it's me, but sometimes I sense an underlying sentiment in the politics involved in this subject. The sentiment i hear a lot on TV and the news is that since it is truly unfair to have the women bear such an inordinate amount of the "blame" (for lack of a better word), that we really should not expect so much from them in the way of "pulling themselves up by the bootstraps". My feeling is that everyone involved in such a situation should do all they can to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps", and then have the state kick in and ASSIST, whether they are male or female.

After all, the government does forcibly take hard earned money from me, with out my permission, and gives it to so many that do not work for it. Just go to any "project" or section 8 housing. Look at the lawns. How much garbage do you see all over??? These are people who, by and large, have as much free time, if not more, than I do. And they get all kinds of "free money". Can't they even clean up their own yard, or the local park or do something. Yes, you will see several homes that are kept clean and tidied up and all. My hat is off to them. And once again, you'll probably find that those people are the working ones, yet they find time to tidy up.

Sorry about that, just some frustration that prompted me to work else where. Back on subject:

What are some answers for the deadbeat Parents? Financial laws are in place, and quite effective, when enforced. What I am asking, is what to do about all the other many needs of the children they helped to create? And what about the deadbeats that work under the table, so garnishment is impossible?

Twigeater and Newgirl, I hold no animosity towards either of you. In fact I have a great deal of respect for both of you. Dealing with government work and highschoolers has got to be frustrating. But it does put you in the "know", and from a different point of view. Actually, I appreciate all the comments on this thread. There have been none justifying freeloading. I am reading the demands of "help yourself" and also "here's how it really is". Keep it coming...”

“You dig bad boys or responsible people?”

“I dig responsible people. But people make mistakes, that have huge ramifications. Many just wallow in it, while others try their darndest to get out of it, and truly need and use help to get out of it. They faced a trial, granted they brought it on them selves for the most part, but they rose above and overcame it. I have a great deal of respect for them. I also have sincere admiration for those who chose wisely and did not bring a trial on themselves and ask us to pay for it.”

“Here is a few little tidbits that may be of interest to you Uphill. One of the things I am in charge of at my job is payroll, payroll taxes, and any garnishment that an employee may have taken out of their check. I report all our new hires to the state's child support enforcement office, so they can identify if we have a deadbeat parent working for us. Then they send me a letter if we do, saying how much to garnish. If the employee quits, I report as much info. as I can about where they might be headed to the office. This is in hope that the office will be able to track them down, before the other parent has had to go long w/out financial support for the child. This is mandatory, but alot of businesses take their time getting around to it or just don't report new hires at all. This is one problem. The second problem is working for "under the table pay." I know alot of logging and construction companies will purposely pay this way to "help" an employee who might be subject to child support garnishment. Funny that they don't think about the responsibility that employee has to the child it helped to create.

Taking responsibility is the big thing here. I made a choice to have sex, the birth control failed, I spent 9 months taking care of myself to ensure my unborn's health, I worked, I went to school, I volunteered to teach teens why they should avoid the sit. and what to do if they got there anyway, I humbly asked for the help I needed, I left the unhealthy sit. w/ the father, I figured out how to carefully budget my money so I could make it w/out his financial support, I devotedly cared for and loved my child, and now after the father got himself help I am working to create a healthy two parent family. Kind of a run on there, but I am trying to illustrate a path. If one makes a bad choice, then they must take responsibility w/ a series of well-thought out good choices. In the end it will hopefully result in the bad choices almost being "reversed."”

“I agree with you Uphill, I've done my share of risky things and paid the price. I not only admire people who overcome big obstacles (even if they created the obstacles), but I will acknowledge the effort and am ready to give them some help when they need it. I do have a problem if someone is sitting there, not working on making things better and then expects help from my paycheck.”

“Responsible people Donman. I dig responsible people. I can't stand the "bad boys." Although, I have to say a "bad boy" who gets help and becomes a responsible man (like my lovey Belowzero), is a real turn on. LOL!”

“I dig honest to goodness redemption, realizing there is a problem and then working to correct it!”

“Me Too! That is what I am all about. He got himself whipped into shape, I gave him another try, so far . . . it is going really well.”

“That's pretty cool, forgiveness is in short supply today too!”

“donman you're right, blaming someone isn't the answer. And there isn't much birth control out there for guys, but why isn't there? I guess making sure men can enjoy sex well into old age (viagra) is more important than preventing unwanted babies in their youth. I'm just being wise here, but really, think about it for a minute.

And teenagers are so promiscuous today - even the threat of lifelong or deadly disease doesn't deter them.

In Maine, parents who don't pay child support can have their wages, income tax refunds, and any other money owed them by the state garnished. They also can't get a license for anything - fishing, hunting or driving. When a parent goes to the state for welfare, they must give the name(s) of the other parent, or those suspected to be the other parent. If more than one name, or the other parent denies it, paternity tests are given all around. The one identified as the other parent is the only one required to pay for the test.

If you have a court order for child support you can take that order directly to the employer to have wages garnished - you do not need to go through DHS (they charge you and often hold up payments). Also, you can file court forms yourself (available on the internet) with no lawyer, for parental responsibility and child support.

When I first worked for the state I worked in the file room, so I saw almost every bill paid by state gov't. Imagine my shock when I saw a bill from DHS to pay for rock concert tickets. Later I worked with the Job Training Partnership Program for three years, you wouldn't believe the stuff federal bucks pay for.

Thanks UK, gov't work isn't all that bad. For instances, Maine's dept of Conservation just got $23M from the feds for the Forest Legacy Program to buy land for Public Lands. wahoo!”

“gawd, I sound like such a know-it-all, sorry. Glad things are going well for you newgirl.

Happy Valentine's Day all!
And use birth control for pete's sake! (just kidding!)”

“WRAP THAT RASCAL!”

“Yeah, I'm not kidding either. Use it, but only w/ the full understanding that the only 100% birth control is no sex at all!!!!”

“That too! If you love em' and leave em' you deserve to get your butt kicked!”