Ayn Rand

“The Happy Psychopaths”

“Ped, dood, that's some heavy stuff.

BUT I LIKE IT!”

“Ped, dood, that's some heavy stuff.

BUT I LIKE IT!”

“The nature of this universe is such that there is no happiness without self-sacrifice.”

“Kewl Idea Violin, or maybe I should open a bar by that name.”

“Man, Dunadan, and here I've been living by the wrong credo my whole life. I always thought it went, "The nature of this universe is such that there is no happiness without nooky."”

“Hmmmmm... in the spirit of comprimise.

Nooky is one of the happiest forms of self sacrifice. I enter into the temple of my beloved and offer something of myself. I return, dimished, but happier for having given something essential of myself.”

“and sometimes, the holiness of the sacrifice is clear to all... as I don a Halo.”

“I couldn’t let this one get away.

Arclite asked me a couple of times if I really have no disagreements with Rand's philosophy.

I do have a few.

One is very basic. I do not believe that existence necessarily exists. To borrow Rand’s terminology A may or may not be A. David Hume explored this in great detail when he explained that we do not actually observe physical objects themselves, we are directly aware of ideas, which are produced in our minds by external objects. The problem is we can never really know if there really are physical objects that produce our sensory ideas. You could be a brain in a vat with all external stimuli fed to you through wires and have no way of knowing it. To Hume, our belief in an external world is natural but irrational. Modern physics has shown the relationship between the observer and the observed.

This leads me to be a skeptic. I believe that there are limits to human knowledge. My paradigm could be entirely wrong because it is based upon ideas which may or may not have any connection to reality, if reality actually does ‘exist’ separate from conscienceness at all. Even if our senses are 100% accurate all the time, they are themselves limited to observing only a tiny sliver of reality.

Another problem I have is her idea that there are no moral gray areas. An action is either moral or immoral. This sounds like a fine ideology but it could lead to paralysis. If something is either moral or immoral, deciding between two less than ideal courses of action becomes impossible. If both action A and B are immoral, what guide to action is there? One action could not be said to be more moral if there are no degrees of morality.

Finally, I do have a problem with the philosophy that altruism is necessarily evil. Under this view any notion of responsibility to others or national service becomes immoral. I flat out reject that.”

“Therefore Violin isn't getting any nooky! LOL!
Wasn't Rand in such deep-seated reaction to Communism that she naturally swung the pendulum to the opposite side?
I would like to reiterate Violin's point about the observer/observed relationship. That means that we are necessarily inseperable from "all that is". In order to truly observe, you would have to be able to separate yourself from that which you observe, which is impossible. Does this not imply a responsibility for us all to us all?
This is a leap in human evolution to realize this. I don't pretend that many are even striving towards this realization, but I think it is the next step for humankind.”

“Youse guys are Ayntastic!

You are Randelicious!”

“No response from the Randroids?”

“A challenge for the Randy Boys!!!”

“Nietzsche referred to the claim that we could have completely objective direct knowledge of the world as "The dogma of the immaculate perception."

There is a very funny section of "Thus Spake Zarathustra" where he lampoons this notion.

Elsewhere he says (watch out, cuzz I kwote by memory):

"you want to know about things in themselves, but behold there are no things in themselves! Or if there were, they would be for that reason unknowable. To know something requires that we place ourselves in conditional relationship to it."”

“Like a breath of fresh air, wisdom from Nietzche comes wafting upon us. Thankyou for that, Ped.

I am not feeling quite so Randy, now.”

“I have a problem with unbending belief in all of the premises of one philosophy. Sounds too much like dogma to me. That is why bigoted discussions between members of political parties strike me as so droolingly inane.

I agree with your perception of the observational aspect of Objectivism, violin, especially in light of the Theory of Relativity. I think that blasted observational constants right out of the water. It’s still a theory, but it makes sense to me.

I didn’t know that Ayn Rand didn’t believe in moral grey areas. I haven’t paid as close attention to her speeches as I may have liked. I just don’t seem to have the time. I enjoy reading the funny pages every day and that takes time.

Altruism is an interesting one. I agree with Dun, when he asked, “Wasn't Rand in such deep-seated reaction to Communism that she naturally swung the pendulum to the opposite side?” I think this is true. She appears to have had a very large resentment here. I do not have any problems with altruism. There are people in this world for whom I would give my life. I once jumped into the water to protect my dog from what I thought might have been an alligator. If an alligator had attacked him, I believe the chances were good that we would have been eating gator tail that night.

Altruism- Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.

They way I put Ayn Rand’s concept of altruism into effect is fairly simple. I do not produce anything solely for other people’s happiness. I am pleased when someone finds value in my efforts, but it is not essential to my happiness. If I am solely concerned with another person's welfare, I try to please them, and they are not pleased, then I have completely failed.

Ex: I give the wino on the street corner a dollar, and my intention is to please him. I will have failed if he treats me as just another mark, before moving on to the next person. Ex: I give a child a Christmas gift over which I have spent considerable thought choosing. It pleases me to make others happy. I have tried my best to choose something I thought this child would enjoy. Should I then feel bad if the child is not happy with my gift?

I may choose to exchange the gift for this child. If I do this completely out of feelings of remorse, because the child was not happy, I may be setting myself up for a miserable existence. There are some people in this world that are not going to be pleased by anything, at any one particular time. There are some people who are never pleased. My happiness is not conditional on their happiness. My happiness is a result of the fact that I satisfied myself with my effort to find a good gift, and that maybe I can do an even better job.

There are people in this world who will take the efforts of others and waste them completely. No matter what you do for them, they will continue to behave in a self destructive way. Should I beat myself up because I cannot help them?

I have seen people take credit for being altruistic. When someone tries to please another, with the expectation that they will get some emotional reward, this not altruism. I have seen many people claim to be virtuous because they help others. This is not altruism. It appears to give many people a warm glow when they make sure that people know they have helped others. This is not altruism. Mother Theresa once said something to the fact that she hadn’t lived a very happy life. If that’s altruism, violin, you can have it.”

“"(1) Only individual self-interest motivates superior
performance.
(2)Teamwork requires the individual to sacrifice their interests to those of the group.
(3)Businesses should forbid teamwork because it lowers the quality of individual achievement."

How badly I would like to forward this to my boss. I have thought this for years! That's why the weak always get weeded out of a team. You're only as strong as the lowest common denominator.”

“Very impressive post, Arc.
I once read about a multi-millionaire in England who continued to live in an inexpensive flat in a lower middle-class section of London. He donated significant amounts of his money to help people and refused interviews. None of his neighbors even knew he was wealthy, but they described him as a happy and helpful neighbor. Now, that's altruism.
I think we would do well, as human beings, to aim our deeds to do the greatest good. However, once the arrow leaves the bow, we shouldn't be concerned with winning the target shoot.”

“'When people are actually acting, or deciding how they
should act, they don’t know what the end result will be. I’m sure most criminals act out of what they perceive to be their own rational self-interests when they set out to harm others.'

I agree with Violin, there is no way to guess the outcome (or one of several possible outcomes) of your self-interested actions.

ped and arclite- you lost me. But I have only read a couple chapters of Rand, AS. Seems if there was less 'arc, I agree with you, but we differ on this minute detail..' type explanations and more getting to your points, it would be easier to follow you two and keep you 'in check.' Too much talking about nothing.”

“With regard to your first paragraph,Bizgirl, I think a person can have some relative idea of the result of their actions. There is a long track record of human activity to look at to help determine probable outcomes.

Less talk about nothing? What would philosophers talk about if not nothing?”

“Of course there are ways to guess the outcomes of your actions. There is no way to know the outcome.

In part, this is why we all need forgiveness sometimes.”

“Thanks, Dun. I guess even a blind pig deserves to root an acorn now and then. Just as long as I don't get too impressed with my own posts, I'll be OK.


Hey, Ped,
I was thinking about some of the thoughts in my post. The first two ideas I express are really concerned with unconditional love. Do you suppose that unconditional love is related to altruism? Or because we love someone unconditionally does that mean we act selfishly to please them?

I think we're into the realm of the unprovable here, but I'd really appreciate you're expertise.


Biz, you can try to keep me in check, but I'd much prefer if you'd try to hold me down.”

“Arclite:

From where I sit, that very fascinating question about unconditional love and altruism lies at the intersection of psychology and speculative philosophy. Like a lot of important questions, in shaping the question we can shape the answer.

Proverbs for Paranoids #3 ""If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about answers." (Thomas Pynchon)”

“I agree with your take on gaining credit for being altruistic, arclite. I always liked the notion that true charity was anonymous. To expect recognition or gratitude is not charity.”

“Being and nothing
Philosophy: who cares what
A post from Biz? Yikes!

"That than which nothing
greater can be thought." Thank God
Biz knew not kleetn.”

“Dunadan,
" think we would do well, as human beings, to aim our deeds to do the greatest good." But the greatest good for whom?

If it made that millionare happy to give away his money, that's great. But should he worry about the people he couldn't or didn't help? If I give money to any number of charities, there are many more that I cannot help. These may be very good causes. How can I tell if I'm doing the most good for the most people? Should I spend time worrying about this question?


Pedxing: Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you. LOL

I heard another very funny quote about paranoia one time. Unfortunately I can't remember it. I can't even remember if I wrote it down somewhere.”

“I wish I knew the answer to your question, Arc. In this paradoxical universe, we seem to be each separate and atonomous, while at the same time interconnected and dependent. The riddle goes on and on. Let me just say that at some point, feeling-intelligence might enter the equations of our lives, thus giving us a perspective that uses logic, but doesn't rely solely on logic. By this method, I would surmise that I can trust that you, Arc, live your life in a way that positively impacts those you interact with. I wouldn't want to back that assumption up with logic, and of course we have not met, but I have come to a value judgement of you and many others on this site. What do you guys say about this?
NOTE! By "feeling-intelligence" I do not indicate mere emotionalism.”

“Very INTERESTING discussion. See ‘EARTH HARVEST’ for IMPORTANT information.”

“I try to live my life according to God's will for me, Dunadan. That has nothing to do with logic, but whenever I listen and do it, I feel great.

A friend of mine says that Rand is misunderstood because of the mind-sets that people associate with selfishness and altruism. Mind-sets, it seems, that don't fit these concepts well.

It seems to me that if pursuit of happiness or health motivates us, as was probably the case with the millionaire you describe, Dunadan, then that is not altruism.

Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.

This would appear to mean a person should do something for someone else even if it made him or her miserable, ruined their health, or even caused their death. They should have no concern for themselves whatsoever. And yet, some people seem to hold this idea of altruism as the greatest thing a human can do.

Here is an example of Rand-type selfishness that I have applied before: My best friend asked me to design a large house, in an exclusive development, on some beach access property. There were restrictions as to the design of the house. It had to have similar elements of form, size, and materials, as the other houses around it. He was willing to pay me top dollar. I don't do development housing. Most people live in energy-inefficient houses that have absolutely no relation to the land they squat on. I told him to find someone else.

I will not do something that I find to be a miserable waste of my time, even though it would have made my best friend happy.

Since it seems to have a following, does anyone have any examples of their own altruistic behavior? Something that was good for someone else, but gave absolutely no happiness nor healthfulness to the person who did the good deed?”

“Does changing poopy diapers count?”

“Some confusion here
Can you understand her post?
Biz and wine don't mix.”

“Since you found it necessary to ask, it doesn't count, Violin.”

“What about taking the tax exemption?”

“Sounds like unconditional love to me violin. I don't know if that's altruism or not. Did you personally gain anything from changing the poopy diapers? What would have happened to you if you didn't? Death by wife?

Presumably, Dunadan, if someone has done an altruistic deed, they got no personal gain from it. So if telling others about the deed gives them absolutely no pleasure, then there is no personal gain in it for them.

AS I THOUGHT! People talk a good game but can't walk the walk. Nobody here talks about ever having done an altruistic deed but the mind-set that it's a great thing probably hasn't changed.

This certainly is one strange world we live in.”

“Does a soldier (with enough skills to earn more than the military pays him) perform an altruistic duty if he gets no pleasure from combat in defense of a cause? Even if the cause is bad? Even if the cause is good for the most people?”

“I'm starting to think that there is no such thing as true altruism. I can't think of one thing I've ever done that would come under that classification. And I'm a really good person, I think.”

“If I feel happy because I’ve done something for someone else regardless of my own desires, am I being altruistic or am I only doing it to feel that ‘warm glow’? Does it really matter?

I can think of a couple of instances where I think I’ve acted altruistically but they’ve only involved my own kids. Am I just unconsciously looking after the immortality of my genes?

For instance, my 4 year-old had a stomach virus before Christmas. She was pretty miserable but couldn’t nap. I knew that would be the best thing for her so I cuddled her so she could sleep. I was pretty sure it was not in my self-interest (I did end up pretty ill) but it was the best thing for her. My oldest daughter ran in front of a car when she was little and I sprinted out to put myself between her and the car (he avoided us - whew). I’m pretty sure that was altruistic.”

“arclite, I can't speak for anyone else, but to catalog "good deeds" that I have done in the past would diminish their value to me. Maybe that is why no one has listed their acts of charity - if you are doing something to gain admiration from other people your motivation is not purely selfless. Much of the pleasure to be gained from altruism is in knowing that someone else received an unexpected gift of time, money, or other resources that made them happier, or somehow made their life easier, for a time. I have found that giving to a specific person (say for a mission trip or emergency expenses) is much more satisfying than giving to an anonymous cause like the United Way. I suppose it could be argued that I have "gained" something by knowing that I have somehow decreased the total amount of unhappiness in the world.

Interesting what you said about not "doing something that I find to be a miserable waste of my time." How does that apply to family members that make demands on your time, such as an elderly relative that needs someone to take them shopping, or a child that needs someone to help coach his or her sports team? Is expending this kind of time and effort altruistic, or are we just seeking approval from society by fulfilling our responsibilities as expected?”

“I’m REALLY not sure about unconditional love being related to altruism. That’s why I asked the question. The soldier question has given me pause as well. I think anything taken to extremes can be bad. But what really blow s my skirt up, is trying to explore why people have such a strong negative reaction to the word selfish or the concept of self-interest. And why they feel that selfless actions have the highest “value.”

Violin, to address your first question, I don’t think it matters. If the outcome of the action has an overall positive effect, why should we worry that our motive was self-interest? Man, I’ll bet that was one of the best feelings you ever had when you curled up with your little girl. That makes me feel good just thinking about the love you must have felt.

Omahiker, the definition of the word includes selfless. And yet you still try to defend the word altruism. Good deeds towards others give me pleasure. That is not selfless. Family members who make demands on my time and resources are not a burden. I am blessed with a good family and it is an absolute pleasure to help them. But I would still never help any of them with the design and construction of a “curb appeal” type house. I may give them money to help buy one, but I will not use my productive time to help create one. This is something that they understand and accept because they love me. Needless to say, I would probably never design a house for my mother’s tastes which tend to run to the “traditional.” To address your last question, Omahiker, I do not care on tiny bit what society imagines are my responsibilities. As long as I do no harm to anyone else, the rest of my life is nobody elses business. Would you wish to tell me what you think I should do?”

“arclite, I was not trying to be antagonistic or tell you how you should live your life. I was just questioning your statement about some activities being a waste of your time. Believe me, I feel that way about some of the things I do for other people, even though I am glad that I can be helpful to them. I wondered how you felt about the examples I listed, if you would consider helping out in that way to be altruistic. I see now that you were just pointing out that if someone gets a warm feeling about being helpful, they are not really doing it for completely selfless reasons, therefore negating the definition of altruism.”

“Omahiker is the anti-Rand”

“And I wasn't trying to be antagonist to you, Omahiker. When someone questions my actions or beliefs, and it pushes my buttons, chances are there's something in me that I need to be looking at. Yes, that's the idea I would like to explore, Omahiker. People have such a strongly negative reaction to the word selfish. I don't see anything wrong with being selfish as long as I'm not hurting anyone else. Now, that's not to say that I live my entire life thinking only of myself. It truly interests me as to why people (as I posted earlier), "...have such a strong negative reaction to the word selfish or the concept of self-interest. And why they feel that selfless actions have the highest “value.”"

Rand, I think, exaggerates these ideas in her books for emphasis. Especially the idea of "societal responsibilities."”

“Maybe it would be a good time to examine the meaning of "hurting someone else." I do not believe that it is my duty to give up everything I own in order to enrich others, but I do feel that I have a responsibility to assist those who are unable to care for themselves, especially if they are members of my family. For example, it is not always in my immediate self-interest to care for my son, but to not do so could result in harm to him. He is mentally retarded and learns very slowly, requiring much patience on my part in teaching him new things. What motivates me to fulfill my responsibilities as a parent? Love (whatever that means)? An instinctual urge to perpetuate the species? The fear of societal condemnation and punishment? I do love my son, and I don't resent the extra burden of caring for him, but I can't really give a logical explanation for this. It is just how I feel. Is part of "not harming others" an obligation to perform unselfish acts?

Other questions: Objectivism seems to place the highest value on the use of one's powers of intellect, but it is human nature to be touched by the innocence of children, the affection of pets, or acts of self-sacrifice. Can objectivism be correct if it runs counter to our natural emotions?”

“Thoughtful questions, Omahiker. I'd like to ponder them for a while. I don't believe that our entire existence cannot be explained through logic. But we can logically examine our emotional responses.

I'm glad to engage in a discussion like this. Even violin has come up with some very thought provoking posts. Violin's and my last discussion sounded something like this:

Arclite: Well look, this isn’t an argument, its just contradiction.

Violin: Yes it is.

Arclite: No it isn’t, it’s just contradiction.

Violin: No it isn’t.

Arclite: It is.

Violin: It is not.

Arclite: Look, you just contradicted me.

Violin: I did not.

Arclite: Oh, you did.

Violin: No, no, no.

Arclite: You did just then.

Violin: Nonsense.

Arclite: Oh, this is futile.

Violin: No, it isn’t.

Arclite: I came here for a good argument.

Violin: No you didn’t. No, you came here for an argument.

Arclite: Well, an argument isn’t just contradiction.

Violin: Can be.

Arclite: No it can’t. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.

Violin: No it isn’t

Arclite: Yes it is. It’s not just contradiction.

Violin: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.

Arclite: Yes, but that’s not just saying, “no it isn’t.”

Violin: Yes it is.

Arclite: No it isn’t. Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.

Violin: No it isn’t…


…Voila! Arclite is proven wrong and here are the valid syllogistic forms!

That argument sounded familiar, somehow.”

“Kewl Arc...that has always been one of my favorite Monty Python routines (I think Violin made reference to the "insult" part of the routine)”

“That's one of my favorites too. Python is probably the only British humor I understand.”

“I have a theory about this. This theory, which is mine, is mine.”

“Its....

Monty Python's Flying Circus is absolutely my favorite comedy show of all time.

And now for something completely different...

It just took me a while to write that baby down. But I did appreciate the sentiment, violin.”

“COME BACK HERE AND I'LL BITE OFF YOUR KNEES!”

“I've seen this thread bouncing around for ages, and I can't resist: What the hell type of name is Ayn? No wonder she grew up to be a weirdo.

On another point, I've often thought that when you really look at it, everything we do is motivated purely by self interest. Why do parents care for their young? To avoid feeling guilty and to feel the satisfaction of caring. Why do we sometimes help strangers? To feel good or even smug. And so on. It all comes down to self gratification or self interest. Kinda technical way of looking at it, but that's what I've often thought.”