Ayn Rand

“Must have skip a lit class or two-
I thought she wrote deep sci fi...

Is it worth a look? How do the Ethics people present it?”

“Her philosophies are admirable but not realistic or practical. However, some of it can be encoporated into a person's daily outlook on life.”

“If they're not realistic or practical for you to implement in your life, Gear Slut, you may be missing some of her points.

One of her points is that many people get their opinions from others. That they don't do the independent thinking or research involved to cut through the BS and misinformation spread by people with their own agendas.”

“Her stuff sounds cool where can I pick a book that she has written?”

“GS - another main point I got from her books is that while large movements of people (governments, companies, society) may be forcing one point of view, you can still survive by standing by what you believe. Even if that view is contrary to the popular view.”

“I found Ayn Rand to be very difficult to read. Her theories seem so contrived. It is like listening to a woman #&%!$. Her arguments are based upon emotion rather than logic.”

“Here it is in a nutshell...All rich people are superior, (and incidentally better looking) than any of the regular schmucks of the world and, therefore should be given the reigns of power as their rightful place in society.”

“I read Atlas Shrugged on a recommendation from someone. It was a good book. I really didn't see her ideas in that book being strange. Basically it just says you are responsible for you own actions. It gives credit to the hard workers as holding up the world. It explores what would happen if all the people that are working hard just quit and disappear from society.
I have not read her non-fiction stuff so not really well schooled on the whole objectivism concept.

Phil
One strange place you will find a Ayn Rand cult is in the weightlifting community. One of the pro bodybuilders from the 70's was big on Ayn Rand. He had a certain style of training that many followed. Many of the weightlifters that follow his training routine also rant on about Rand. Many of them are almost cult like in their behavior, but bodybuilders are a strange bunch anyway.

Crazy Mike,
Start with "Atlas Shrugged" it should be available at most libaries or book stores.”

“flatlander - Thanks!

I haven't followed the objectivism movement, but from reading her books and seeing her interviewed on TV long ago, I understood her to believe that attempting to be totally responsible for yourself was a good thing for you and society. She believes that what is yours is yours and no one has the right to take it from you to redistribute (e.g., socialism). She believes you should pay for everything you want, even many things we consider normal governement services today. To some degree I think she is right.

I forgot about her book, "The Virtue of Selfishness." The title tells you something right there.”

“Yo man! That Lastat book is one scary read! Oh, Ayn RAND, not Ann Rice! My bad...”

“Bacpac, how can you say that? I found her to be a very logical woman. A true anomaly (duck!).

Dunadan, you seem to have missed ALL of the points entirely.


I would suggest that someone, who's reading Rand for the first time, read The Fountainhead. But then I'm prejudiced. I understand what Howard Roark is doing and thinking about when he designs buildings...

..and his good friends include a construction tradesman, and a starving artist, Dunadan, imagine that.”

“Hey, Crazy Mike, any decent yard sale will have a few of her books (assuming a literate neighborhood) and then you'd have a "trail book" and wouldn't have to worry about returning it late. (and you'd have the pages you've read for firestarting. Of course the best book for that is Farenheit 451, but thats Bradbury)”

“And now accepting the award for "Playing Arclite like a cheap fiddle" is.....(drum roll, maestro)...Dunadan.
You are much more the authority to comment on Ayn Rand than I do, Arc. I seem to notice many who have read her books suddenly are completely self sufficient and want to cut away any and all that are below their economic status. We are all so interdependent in this realm that you can't separate yourself from the teeming masses.”

“Firestarting on the trail with pages of F-451 that you've read... Kewl idea Mr. Fly!!”

“That's why I backpack, Dun, TO GET AWAY FROM PEOPLE LIKE YOU!

That gets my creative, artsy-fartsy award for the day, fly. Starting a fire with Farenheit 451. Now THAT'S irony! But have you memorized it yet?”

“i prefer burning steven king's
"the firestarter" to anything by bradbury....”

“Her philosophy is quite selfish and egotistical. I put her in the same category as Thoreau, idealistic and naive.”

“Ok I will look into it.Lighting a camp fire with pages from 451 how cool would that be.”

“What's wrong with being idealistic and naive? Better than being past your prime, know-it-all and crotchety.”

“Being young and a self-riteous know-it all is worse IHMO.”

“Maybe I’m unenlightened but I don’t think that pursuit of one’s own self-interest is a highly moral cause.”

“I think you're unelightened, violin.

A person doesn't have much of a life if they only live for others. By thinking little of the "pursuit of one’s own self-interest" you are saying that your self-interest is of little value. So let's see, you don't respect what you do and you don't think you have anything to offer. That's sad, violin.

I believe that one of the most moral things a person can do is to produce something that is of value to other people. I take great pleasure in trying to do the best that I can in everything that I do. I do not do this for the pleasure of others. You may call me selfish if you wish.”

“If no one pursued their own interests...
no one would eat.
----

Obviously I don't think Violin is suggesting that no one pursue their own interests. But I do think that taking responsibility for oneself is the most basic, bottom line, non-negotiable element of...well, of life. Not of "society" because it is essential whether one lives alone or as part of a community.

For anyone to forgo this basic responsibility is an act of selfishness, because that person is choosing instead to be dependent on others.”

“C-SPAN's American Writers series resumes on March 31 with Langston Hughes. Ayn Rand is featured May 12.”

“Wow! Arclite can not only put words in my mouth but also pity me for them!

How wonderful.”

“My last post is, without a doubt, the worst case of grammar I can rmember posting on TT. Any awards for that?
Well....I do know that human beings will tend to work for their own interests in spite of whether someone makes a philosophy of "objectivism" or not. I don't think the world has ever lacked for people looking out for #1. This doesn't mean that, left unchecked, self-promation is always the best avenue to take for the good of all. People in China, India, and Mexico are practicing their right to overpopulate the earth, but does their self-interest represent enlightenment? The other danger in using the Rand philosophy is translating it to huge business interests that can ruin your life economically, environmentally, and culturally in the name of short-term self-interest.
I think the creation of sometning that benefits us all is a great goal and purpose. However, to have that goal is to be able to see beyond one's own ego to the greater good.”

“"remember"
Well, Violin, if you wouldn't have admitted to being such a punk, we wouldn't have to pity you.
You did say you were a punk, didn't you?”

“And your reference to 'a cheap fiddle' was just an unfortunate coincedence, LOL”

“No, Tilt, I have taken it on as my responsibility to give Arc something to get emotional about from time to time. He is such a rational self-promoter that he rarely utilizes his feeling nature.
Right, Arc?”

“Yes, Dunadan. But you used "realm" in a sentence and thusly get extra credit.”

“Yeah, "realm" gets -em every time. That was just my self-interest rearing its ugly head.”

“Hey! Nobody wants to hear about any ugly heads rearing, okay?”

“In her own words...

"My philosopy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with his productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute"

An essay titled Introducing Objectivism by Ayn Rand.

I've only read two of her books: Anthem and The Fountainhead. I enjoyed both of them. I have Atlas Shrugged and The Virtue of Selfishness in my pile of books that I need to read.

If you're looking to get a littel bit of insight into Ayn's ideas... try Anthem. It's a short read but I really enjoyed it.”

“I didn't put any words into your mouth violin, your philosophy speaks for itself.

What's that rattling sound I hear? Dunadan, is that you? Give me back my chain, please. Yeah, I'm a heartless, unfeeling bastrd. Just ask my friends.

Overpopulation in not in the self-interest of anyone, Dunadan. Many folks confuse wants with needs. Exactly what is the "greater good", Dunadan. It's got a nice ring to it. The only problem is that everyone has a different idea of what it means. The planet may be better off without any humans at all. Is that "the greater good"?”

“Yes, but in terms of real creativity, humans are somewhat limited. There is a complete biological system of creation and destruction that is sustained without the "genius" and "creativity" of humans, thus the basis of life itself is unexplainable and mysterious. Our "creativity" is limited to putting things together in new ways, but the basic raw materials are already here. Therefore, our creativity depends upon something that is greater than just ourselves. That is why basing happiness on our limited ability to "create" leaves a person without the greatest happiness that comes from wonder and mystery.”

“Damn! I wished I would have seen your post, first, Arc.
No, I don't think any one person can say they know all the greater interests of the whole of humanity. Which is why we should depend on more than just ourselves to decide what the greater good is. As humanity transcends ego as the sole mover of happiness, (if humans do grow beyond mere self-interest), we will be able to discover, more accurately, what benefits whole of humankind.”

“I agree with your spiritual post, Dunadan. But then, I'm not an atheist and I don't completely agree with everything that Rand proposed (YANK...gotcha).

As far as trancending ego and discovering what benefits every member of humankind, when you reach that state of nirvana, let me in on the secret. Until then, I believe the most moral thing that I can do is to be the best that I can be...but I'm not going to join the army to accomplish that.”

““It seems that a lot of people automatically take extreme opposition positions when someone doesn't agree completely with them. You shouldn't fall into that trap.”
- arclite
11:49:22 AM
02/01/02”

“Violin, your post speaks for itself. Nice try to get out of it but it isn't working. Self-delusion is a terrible thing, violin, don't fall into that trap.”

“Whether one believes in her lofty ideas or not, one can learn something from it. It's worth reading a few of her books. While you're at it, dig back further and read Plato's Republic.”

“Since you lived in NJ before you were forced to relocate to the ‘second chance state’, I know you’ll understand this argument, arclite – You want my chain? Yank this”

“For a true take on life, read Dante's Inferno or Saint Thomas Moore's "Utopia."”

“Dang, Arc, why couldn't you be an atheist and I could have pinned you to the wall?
This discussion has prompted me to actually read one of her books and, thanks to the architect, I'll start with the Fountainhead.
You big chain-jerker, you.”