April 6th Sipsey Willderness Clean-up

“bitpusher, I am open for suggestions, I should get there around 6PM”

“Well, if you park at the Sipsey Recreation Area, and head under the bridge along the river, there are some campsites not too far away. I don't think there's anything right at the Recreation Area though. Of course, the closest ones may be taken by the bubba campers by the time we get there. I will take off a couple hours early to get down there and try to get us a good campsite.

How many people are coming down the night before?”

“I got an email from rabbitman that indicated he would be there Friday”

“Most of the campsites along the river are pretty small. I seem to remember that at the junction of Borden Creek and the Sipsey there is a slightly larger one, might have 3 or 4 tent sites. That's about half a mile in. Nothing real tricky there though.

I will try and dayhike down there sometime soon and scout out a good location. If a lot of people come down early it will become difficult to all camp together though.”

“after you do the recon, let me know what the situation is. Once we get a headcount on the Fri night arivees, we can plan this thing a little better.”

“I'll be there Friday. I'll have a better estimation on arrival time closer the date.”

“OK - I went back to Mine Bank tr. today and it wasn't anywhere as much as a problem as before so I am going to be arriving Friday night and after 16 hours of driving I will be more than ready to do a little hiking - I assume we will need to hike back out to go to the Maint. Center for the safety briefing in the morning ?”

“I'll be there too.

walkindude”

“I am looking forward to meeting everyone.”

“Yeah, It's always fun to see friends and meet new ones.”

“I will scout sometime soon and post a report. It probably won't be this weekend though, next weekend is a little more likely.

I'm looking forward to meeting new people and seeing friends too. We're doing a good thing, y'all.”

“I look forward to helping on this project.”

“If anyone is interested, your mileage ($0.14/mile) airfare, busfare is deductible as a charitable donation. FYI.”

“OPIE, any more info?”

“Supertroll will attend. I will be at the trailhead on Friday night, Dude, I'll call you to discuss the details...I've been gone to Alaska.”

“one note on tools - if you are planning on cleaning up fire rings and water bars a hoe is a good tool for the purpose - easy to flip rocks off into the weeds, scrape up the ashes, dig out the water bar exits, etc plus it makes a good hiking stick when reversed

The tools I will be bringing are a 5 ft crosscut saw, two handles for same, a 21 inch Corona pruning saw, a Maasdam rope puller (ie come-along) a couple lengths of rope for the tieing of the rope puller to the blowdown and anchor, a hammer and wedge for keeping a cut open when sawing larger cuts, and a crowbar for moving blowdowns off trail without cutting - exactly what will hit the trail will be determined on site - a minimum I usually carry is the hammer, wedge, and Corona; if I know I am going to be hitting larger blowdowns (10 inch and up) I also carry the crosscut saw, one handle, and the crowbar in addition to the minimum; the Maasdam stays in the car unless I know I will be going after the big stuff (16 inch and up). The only real problem here is finding room enough for camping stuff too if I am going after the big blowdowns.”

“I will be off work for the preceding week, and can prolly make Sipsey on Thursday...

If I do that, I will hit the work center first to get the skinny. From there, I'll hit the backcountry from the Rec. Area.

I may not show up until Friday -
depends on how the Gulf fishing goes...”

“Do we know yet which trail/trails we will be working on.”

“I spoke with Mike Cook.
He said they mandate groups no larger than 10 people. I have ten on my definite list and 5 maybes

opie
rabbitman
leatherneck
chili36
bitpusher
tango313
walkindude
hogonice
gojo
supertroll

He said he had some very visible paved roads he love for us to pickup trash on. I told him we'd love to help on that, but my group likes to concentrate on the backcountry areas. He was like well..can i trade you a less traveled gravel road instead...so i told him we'd like to work on trail maintenance and firerings instead. He almost started begging me say yes to picking up trash along kinlock falls road...THERE ARE HOUSES ALL UP AND DOWN THAT!!
He mentioned the Randolph trailhead, but then kinda sounded like he had really no say in which trail we picked.
He said he would like to meet with us all at a trailhead on the 6th.

I gave our organization name as ECT
East Coast Trekkers
I also need everyone First and Last name. you can either do it on here, or e-mail me at opie1979@yahoo.com

He said they have new policies against crosscut saws, and reccommended small bow saws, pruning shears, and medium/large bow saws.

Any trailhead WE choose is fine, the FS workstation is also fine.
Didn't ask about waiving the day fee, but i will. The cabin off 201 is on 40 acres of private land, he's been in it and wouldn't sleep in there....the mice would carry you away!

So, please get your full names to me ASAP, and ask me some more questions so i can ask him and get some answers.
or call Mike Cook at 205-489-5111
or e-mail mcook01@fs.fed.us

Tango...i'll take my gloves in SMALL”

“If the crowd gets too large, Belle and I will hit the trail and work solo.


BTW -
I am NOT doing road pickup - AL has chain gangs for that.”

“Opie,

I sent you an e-mail. I'm not picking up trash on the road either.
If we have more than 10 people, can't we have more than one workgroup?”

“I'm not doing road cleanup either...and rabbit man..yea your right..the groups can work separate and camp together”

“This whole thing, from the wanting to steer us to paved, drivable roads, to new regs on not using crosscut saws, is beginning to sound suspicious. Like they don't want the trails to be maintained.

I know from trail descriptions that I've read that the 205 has essentially been abandoned by the FS. They're letting it grow up.”

“I agree with you guys. As a group of backpackers our interest involves problems on the trail. I wonder according to the ranger what constitutes a workgroup. It kinda seems to some extent that we will be spread out all over the trail in groups of 3 and 4 anyways as many campsites there are in a small area.

Tango thanks for the gloves. Need a Small.”

“Tango,

XL for me. Thanks”

“Trail 205 and 210 both seems to becoming abandon trails. Bitpusher that was my first reaction also. Alabama Outdoors has run into the same kinda stuff when scheduling a sipsey clean-up day. I don't think the trails are even near the top of their priority list. The saw situation may be a huge liability, but there is no excuse in allowing a trail to grow up. They should at least keep in contact with volunteer groups and tell them what needs done.”

“And 210 is a new trail! It was only finished within the last few years.

Perhaps it's time to write our illustrious congresshacks?”

“I also am wondering what is going on here - I would rate it at perhaps 50% probable that the FS has a policy to actively discourage trail maintenance in wilderness areas - the policy if it exists is probably unofficial to keep it out of the public review cycle required for official policies. In general there are probably 2 major causes for that possible policy - 1.) it could be argued that wilderness areas should not have maintained trails at all - a statement that I disagree with but not strongly enough that I would go and put new trails in a wilderness area - I do however cut blowdowns in a wilderness area on existing trails without any input from the FS - easier to get forgiveness than to get permission; 2.) in the current litigation environment the FS is probably trying to avoid at all costs anything that could result in a lawsuit including discouraging anything that might possibly result from doing the type of trail maintenance that we desire to do - ie anything that uses tools or involves possibly heavy lifting. Of the two possibilities the second is the most likely in my opinion.

With respect to the crosscut saw ban - this is a problem for me - one of the main reasons I was/am coming down to Sipsey was to go after the large blowdown that has been mentioned near the intersection of Bee Branch and Sipsey Fork trails - this blowdown can be removed in only two legal ways that I know of - crosscut saw or explosives (with proper paper work) - I don't do explosives and now they tell me I can't do crosscut saw removal - do I really want to drive 16 hours one way to cut small blowdowns or pick up trash - not really - it would hawever be nice to get together again with various TT folks - I am somewhat undecided at this point - if anyone wants my place on the 10 confirmed list just let me know - for now I am planning on coming but plans can be easily changed.”

“I spoke with him again and he said the policy isn't formal..it just hasn't been polished enough to be published...they require a day of training or so for a cross cut. This guy sounds like desk pilot.
When talking to the Ranger Mr Gaines, he sounded all excited about getting us to work in the backcountry on whatever we wanted. This guy sounds kinda ho-hum and wants us wiping down picnic tables and sharpening pencils at the sign in books...Mr Gaines is out of the office..I WILL TALK TO HIM AGAIN. all else fails we'll ask for forgiveness instead of permission...right on HOI!!”

“Good job Opie.
To Hell with the Desk Pilot! Lets clean out the trails with whatever saw we want. I think we should take our tools and start walking. when we come to an area, we'll do what we need to do. pick up trash, prune trees, cut trees out of the trail, ect. If a groupe is working on an area, every one else just leap frog past them.
I do think the FRS walkie talkies will be handy on this trip.

BTW, walkindude = Mark Moore

P.S. I ain't cleaning up along the road either!! Tell Mr Cook that I'm a f*ckin backpacker!”

“I'm going to sam's to grab 2 motorola's...been wanting the real good ones to use when paintballin.

If i don't start hearing answers i want we'll just go do our own thing...i've never seen a rule about cleaning up being wrong and having to ask for permission (maybe that's what all the bubba's are waiting for), anyone else see something to this affect?..Cutting of live trees is not permitted...but if it's down..it's toast!”

“well I don't go quite that far - if its down and it is interferring with a normal backpacker following the trail then its toast - ie low step overs and flat on the trail blowdowns get left for last (if ever) and crawl unders get done first”

“Sent you an email Opie.”

“perhaps we should adopt a new group name...

The Outlaw Trail Maintainers

It's obvious now that this Cook guy is yet another example of a pencil-pushing government employee waiting for his retirement, making sure that all his i's are dotted and his t's are crossed. Ignore him. Let's see what Ranger Gaines has to say.

Tango, medium male size for me, please. Thanks for the gloves.”

“Got your e-mail tango...going to see the lightning??...I miss the bay!!!!!!!
Gaines will be out all week...so we'll see what cook does till gaines gets back...i had to call the ranger station again cause i hadn't heard from them 3 days after i was supposed too...and when i did...he had the message right in front of him..uh huh...right.
Trailhound is added to the list...the 10 number be damned..like they'll turn down help...we WANT ALL OUR TT'ers there!!”

“I wonder if the desk jockey was perhaps confusing a chainsaw with a crosscut saw. It is typical to have a 1 day course before being permitted to use a chainsaw in non-wilderness areas. Of course chainsaws are not to be used in wilderness areas.”

“It's still unlikely that I can go, but here are two thoughts on what I've read to date.

HOI - Hiking in a cross-cut on the regular trails will be LONG. There are two shortcuts. One is to park at Thompson creek and take an unmapped trail that OPIE knows about. It will be about 2.5 miles one way to the blowdown. A side note is that OPIE had to go off trail for a mile. I now know about another unmarked trail to get you the whole way. Basically, park at Thompson Creek and take the trail south(206?) After 1/2 mi you come to a small creek. Cross the creek and turn left. You will find a trail without any signs that goes up the creek. After about 1/4 mile the trail turns right(SSE) and goes up a dry creek and over a bluff line (150+ elev gain) The trail continues until it dead ends into 205. Turn left on the trail and after maybe 50 yards an unmarked trail turns right, in the direction you were origionally traveling. This will take you to West Bee Branch about 300 yards above the intersection with East Bee Branch. When you dead end at the creek, turn right and you'll be at the intersection. The big blowdown is towards the river(S) from this intersection. OPIE, will be familiar with all of this on a map. Another way is to park at the 224 trailhead. Take 224(old logging road with many blowdowns) until in intersects with 204. After a while an unmarked trail ties in from the right and it takes you to the head of East Bee Branch. OPIE exited most of our route on our January trip.

Friday night camping - Going north on 209 from the trailhead there is a place for several trips only 100 yards from the trailhead. You'll go under the bridge, down the hill, and back up a little. A fire ring and flat area are on your right. The next campsites are at the intersection of Borden Creek and the river. If you follow the creek about 20 yards you'll see a ring and an area for maybe 2 tents. At the intersection itself there is room for several, but they're in the trail.”

“I will try and get off work early enough on Friday to grab that first campsite. Of course, it may already be taken. If so, I'll continue on down the 209 until I find the Borden Creek sites.”

“The trail from Thompson creek to Bee branch is known as the Whiteoak hollow shortcut to locals. Someone had placed a alum. band on a tree to mark where to get off of the unmarked trail to go into bee branch. I ain't sure if it is stil there or not. Do Ya'll remember the Judge from Bham that got lost a couple of years back. He was in this area when he became lost. We found him the next day, But this is another story I'll share it with Ya'll if I can make it on the 6th.
BAMA”

“Yea that's the whiteoak hollow shortcut.

OK...guys and gals...the only campsites big enough for our group would be at the eye of the needle..or one a few miles down the sipsey from it toward Bee Branch. Fire rings have grown up like 'shrooms after a rain along the Sipsey River Trail...and that Ice Storm laid out plenty of blow downs. (pros)not too far in, high use trail, and would benefit, plenty of water, decent campsites.
easy to get to from thompson creek

That area has my vote for the clean up...anyone else agree...or have other ideas??

We can't all spout off 10 different areas...lets pick 2-3 and then vote which one to do this trip, and then do the others in weekends to come.”

“I've not been to that area yet but Opie is da Man so it's OK with me. I'll be there Friday night probably around 8:00. I'll go on to Thompsom Creek Parking area and strap on the headlamp if yall are going to be around the Needles eye.”

“night hiking in?...that trail is easy, greasy!”

“How is the security at the trail head. I am thinking of taking my car a rag top, instead of the butt busting little truck. Any input? I will be there Friday late afternoon sometime.”

“Tango, I've only parked at the Sipsey Recreation Area trailhead once, but I didn't have any problems. If you're talking the Thompson Creek Trailhead, it's pretty far back if I remember correctly. OPIE would have better info on that.

So is the Friday night group gonna be at Thompson Creek, or on the 209 just up from the Recreation Area? No night hiking for me...I'll take off early enough to get there during daylight....”

“I've never had a problem at the thompson creek TH..it's a deadend and out of the way...so not much traffic except for hikers..good bit of hiking..but can be hard to turn around when full. I'll be there EARLY AM saturday...like 7am or so...everyone else going in friday?”

“I'm gonna be there Friday night. It will be easier for people to find the Recreation Area (it's right off of 6/60) than to make it around to the Thompson Creek TH.”

“I have left a truck at the trailhead at the bridge on Thompson many times. I havn't had a problem yet. There are a couple of blowdowns on 206 leading into shiprock/needle eye that could use some attention. There is a bluff across the creek from thompson that someone built a fire ring directly under. This bluff has 3 indian corn grinders at it. The fire under the bluff is leaving smoke and soot on the face of the bluff. IMHO there should not be a firering under this bluff. I would like to get rid of it before any futher damage is done. Opie done well suggesting that area as a campsite. It is big enough for a large group. I was there a few months ago with cubscouts. We picked the campsite clean but there is only so much boys that young can do.

BAMA”

“So will we be camping at the needles eye? I'm trying to plan on getting there Thursday nite or Friday morning.”

“A couple questions about the Thompson trail head - since I have never been there how do I find the parking area? Should I plan on arriving while there is still daylight so as to make it easier to find the parking area? Is the road to the trail head a "high clearance vehicle only" type of road or can my Honda Civic get through?”

“Thompson creek trailhead is a good road, but near the end it takes 2 hairpin curves...don't go over 5-7 mph!!!!..one of them is a doozy, you do not want to miss this curve....trust me. I think i've seen more cars than trucks at this TH, acuras, hondas, saw a mustang once even. The parking area is at the dead end...there is a new bridge with reflectors, and 2 areas that 3 cars can pull in parking lot style, and the rest line up along both sides of the road and across the bridge in front of the gate”