**BUSH'S Tax Refunds***

“The numbers were cooked? Do you know something that the Urban Institute-Brookings Institution Tax Policy Center analysts don't? Please inform us oh wise one.”

“While you're at it, please explain how we are to pay the looming social security costs associated with the retirement of the baby boomers. Will you be pissed when you realize you paid money your entire working life and get nothing? Are you aware that Bush ignored a report from his own Treasury Dept predicting a SS shortfall of $44 trillion dollars? This is a rape, pure and simple.”

“You're taking Brookings numbers at face value?

You are naive and gullible. Brookings is considered one of the most unethical, unreliable, and biased think tanks around.”

“Thanks for the cold, hard facts.”

“I'm going to take my refund and do something really frivolous with it....like pay 2 months worth of health insurance, then I gotta figure out a way to pay for the wifes insurance.”

“When I was in (um...14 years ago) after 3 years of service I was making 11k a year and paying taxes

http://armyawards.com/pay2001.shtml

a newbie makes about 14k a year now and someone in the position I was in would make about 18k and they pay taxes, and don't get a tax cut. "Support the troops", just don't include them in the tax cut”

“"Urban Institute-Brookings Institution Tax Policy Center analysts"

How silly, If you believe the stuff those people put out I have an urgent update from Chicken Little for you...”

“Again - brilliant debating technique.”

“ZZZZZZzzzzzzZZZZZZzzzzzZZZZZZzzzz..”

“I am truly surprised a troll like you isn't ejected from a board that supposed to be about trails and the outdoors. Your hateful spew makes dropping in here to read about the things the board is for much less pleasant. You seem venomous and misdirected though not exactly a fool. Maybe there is hope you're meerely acting this way in the troll role. You never listen to anyone at any rate so its wasted effort to deal with you as an adult. I'm through playing.”

“Jeeze - all he said was "ZZZZZZzzzzzzZZZZZZzzzzzZZZZZZzzzz".”

“ummm that one was for you bud, not gojo. OK noooow I'm going”

“Still no ideas on that Treasury Dept report about the $44 trillion shortfall? It recommended a tax increase. Even Reagan decided to save social security.

Forget the future. Let’s binge some more!”

“Again - brilliant debating technique."
vIoLiN
03:22:13 PM
06/03/03

News flash Einstein--cut and paste isn't brilliant debating either.”

“"Still no ideas on that Treasury Dept report about the $44 trillion shortfall? It recommended a tax increase. Even Reagan decided to save social security.

Forget the future. Let’s binge some more!"
vIoLiN


the report you site was done by a clinton apointee(a liberal) at the treasury dept. you are a hack and believe anything that criticizes bush. your unobjectivity makes it impossible to take you seriously.


somebody with a brain tell me how a 375 billion tax refund turns into a 42 trillion dollar loss? tell me how thats possible.....


46% of americans pay no income taxes. giving them some of this money would not be a tax cut, it would be wellfare. there is no way you can constrew it otherwise.


the democrats have managed to remove their constituants off the tax rolls. all they ask in return is for votes. vote for me and i'll take that rich guy's money and give it to you. ya'll are idiots....


what if i gave you a gun and said....take this gun, and go find somebody that doesn't need the money and take it from them and give it to somebody that needs the money. ?


who here would do it?


nobody would....yet you expect the government to do it.....to make yourself feel better? to show your compassion? to keep liberals in power? why? it's the right thing to do? stealing money is ok now?


go to the treasurydept.gov and look at the stats when there have been tax cuts, revinues go up. it's there.


alos go to irs.gov and look up who pays taxes....


who disagrees with me?”

“strat – We’ve been over a lot of this a number of times. I posted some figures an another thread that showed that tax revenue in real dollars (adjusted for inflation) actually went down after Reagan’s tax cuts and that there was a net loss to the government over an 8 year period. Your response to those figures was the same as yours and other’s response to the figures in the Brooking Institute figures cited above: “the source is biased and you are a fool”.

Can anyone look at the Brookings numbers in this pdf file: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/commentary/congress/table5_35.pdf and tell me where they are wrong? (You will need Adobe Acrobat to view it.)

Their numbers show that 8.1 million taxpayers (that’s people who actually pay taxes, not those with no liability) will not receive any tax cut even though Bush promised that everyone would receive a one and Fleisher’s stated that those in the 10% bracket would benefit most.

Can you please provide a link to an alternative study or some critique of the Brookings figures that proves they are wrong? Don’t just attack the source, show how they are wrong. I will forgive you if you don’t conduct your own study and simply cut & paste something from a recognized source.

If it is somehow hateful and trollish to point this out, I apologize for hurting any tender feelings.”

“i rarely take personal offence to anything people say.

why rely on the brooking institutes interpretations of the raw data when you can go to treasurydept.gov and irs.gov and look at the numbers and make up your own mind?


we report, you decide. what a concept!

hope i didn't hurt your feelings....”

“I've spent the better part of the morning trying to find an error with the brooking's numbers. I dislike the brookings institute for a number of reasons I won't get into here. That said, I can't find a flaw in their method or results. The numbers look solid.

This tax cut, apparently, does not remove any of the burden of those pay in the ten percent bracket with no children or most of those filing head of household in the same bracket.”

“What Aero said ........”

“what if i gave you a gun and said....take this gun, and go find somebody that doesn't need the money and take it from them and give it to somebody that needs the money. ?


who here would do it?”

“They keep saying that the people in this tax bracket don't pay taxes.....does that mean that they have stopped taking out the payroll tax?


I don't think so.”

“"what if i gave you a gun and said....take this gun, and go find somebody that doesn't need the money and take it from them and give it to somebody that needs the money. ?


who here would do it?"
stratdewd

No, because neither of us have the right to take the law into our own hands.”

“I look at the tax refund check that I'm about to get like I do those goofy checks you get from credit card companies. You cash it and then it goes on your monthly statement that you have to pay back with high interest.

The day before Bush signed the tax break law, he signed legislation to raise the debt limit. Borrow and spend has replaced tax and spend.”

“Anyone know where the money the government borrows comes from?”

“And where the interest paid GOES?”

“They keep saying that the people in this tax bracket don't pay taxes.....does that mean that they have stopped taking out the payroll tax?


I don't think so."
mtnsteve


steve, don't be ignorant. go to IRS.GOV and look for yourself. don't take my word for it dood, go look. the bottom 46% of wage earners pay no federal income taxes. they paY soc security, but not income tax. some pay in and get a rebate back at the end of the year.

that being said, how is it fair to give them dsome of the taxbreak? you'll notice that not one of the liberals on here have mentioned this point.....

giving these people some of the money would be wellfare, not a taxbreak.


who here would do it?"
stratdewd

No, because neither of us have the right to take the law into our own hands."
pedxing

OK! ped took the bait, now strat will reel him in.....


ok ped, so you wouldn't take someones money? but you expect the guvernment to do it for you. because it makes you feel good? because it's the right thing to do to steal someones money who doesn't really need it? tell me how this concept is morally right? you can't....because it's wrong....”

“strat

You seem like a really nice guy and smart as well. Why can't you admit that this "tax break" thing is just not being done responsibly? Is it so hard to admit this? I don't have a problem raking the Democrats over the coals when they deserve it and man do they sometimes. This is like the bizzaro world.....Republicans saying it's ok to run up huge debts. Those rebate checks are funny money.”

“jo, thank you for the compliment. i know my tone comes off as being harsh at times, but you are correct, i really am a nice guy.

it is my belief that tax cuts will stimulate the economy and bring in more money. spending cuts should be next, and i think bush will try to cut some spending(he's already proposed privatizing thousands of gubment jobs) and then you'll REALLY hear the neo-libbies freakin out.

i just don't see giving people a lil money back during hard time as being irresponsible. they(take me for example) will spend it. it will go directly into the economy. also, the tax cuts are for 350 billion over 10 years.....which is TINY campared to around 50 trillion that the economy will turn during that time.....

don't be fooled by scare tactics and fear mongering.”

“Strat, could you answer my question above?”

“"vIoLiN


the report you site was done by a clinton apointee(a liberal) at the treasury dept. you are a hack and believe anything that criticizes bush. your unobjectivity makes it impossible to take you seriously."
- stratdewd
09:14:20 PM
06/03/03



strat-

I was referring to the Treasury Dept. report by former Treasury deputy assistant secretary Kent Smetters and Jagdessh Gokhale, a consultant to Treasury from the Federal Reserve Bank in Pittsburgh. Kent Smetters was appointed by Bush on July 3, 2001.

Stop making stuff up!

The report looks at very long-term federal obligations and predicted revenues in arriving at the $44 trillion figure and outlines several choices we must face. Increase either income and/or withholding taxes and/or severely cut back SS and Medicare expenses.

To be fair, the Clinton administration swept similar studies under the rug. It is time for both parties to face this looming crisis. It’s not a partisan issue. The future economic health and political stability of our country is at risk.”

“Strat

I hear ya, but they are borrowing money to do this. Most federal spending goes to defense, social security and medicare.I think that it's around 2/3 or more. I don't have the exact figures but what's left over for everything else (managing the national forests, etc.) is really quite small in the context of the whole budget. You can't squeeze the deficits out of the budget by cancelling all the so-called silly research like cow-fart methane emission studies or reforming welfare. It's really small potaoes.

Well,.....I'll naturally go ahead and spend that refund check but someday we gotta stop borrowing the dough and pay as we go.

One more thing.....this lib vs con thing is strange don't ya think. Liberals get villified but you can thank them for a lot of things we take for granted, like your overtime pay, public schools, social security,etc.

It's a mess...that we can agree on. Have a great weekend everyone.”

“I don't know if the libs want to take credit for our public schools more than anyone else right now.”

“I was referring to the Treasury Dept. report by former Treasury deputy assistant secretary Kent Smetters and Jagdessh Gokhale, a consultant to Treasury from the Federal Reserve Bank in Pittsburgh
VIOLIN


former blah blah blah? so it's an official report from a former member and a consultant, violin? geesh louise......it's a different report than i heard about, but i give it no more credibility. saying 350 billion will turn into 48 trillion is the most ludricus thing i've ever heard. this tax cut is less than 1% and you guys think we're all gonna die....you probably hope we do all die so then a dem will be elected, lolz.....


sorry jo, but i disagree. no offence of corse.


people will only see what they want. i just can't figure out why they want what they want. their philosophies are based almost entirely on emotions, and not on facts or logic. they offer no opposing ideas, only mudslinging rhetoric.

it's a mess allright....

fear not, i am on the job!”

“Until you post a single opposing fact or display any grasp of logic, I'll assume that was all satire.”

“you still don't get it man.....you lost becaus of your ideas....not because people didn't clearly understand you ideas. you are only making it worse for yourselves.....


works for me, lmao!”

“I took pictures at a parade today and ended up chatting with two WWII vets. Without prompting, the older of the two told me how he can't believe the president will not give him a tax break. He said he respects the people that have gone to war recently, but NOT the president.

Get out and talk to some vets!”

“stickmanwalking

The whole concept of public schools was a "liberal" for it's time. As was social security. Conservatives of the time hated Roosevelt for instituing "communism". LMAO

Many (but a minority IMHO)public schools today are a mess and whether it's some liberals fault has been debated on another thread. my 2c is that you can blame parents.

BTW My kid's high school was named the 177th best high school out of over 7000(public or private) in the US. The liberals and the conservatives are working together pretty well here.”

“jo, that's cool. we are lucky that way too. we like our kids' schools too.


man, i also believe 'liberals' have contributed alot of great things to our society. i also believe that most ordinary people who vote for iberals today are honest , well intentioned, hard working people. i just think that the ideals and philosophies have been corruped by the lust for power. their goal is no longer to help people for the right reasons....it's to help people just enough to get them to vote for you and/or scare them enough to vote agin the evil white republican..

now i also realize that this lust is on both sides. and i say that if one of my guys is a piece of crap, throw his ass out. well get another one and as soon as he screws us, we'll fire him and hire a new one. i just think the conservative ideals make more sence in todays world and liberalism has caused alot of problems and will continue to do so ....










IMO”

“Probably off topic but here are some thoughts about schools-- some from my own experience and some from talking to teachers.

Years ago I wanted to be a teacher and teach kids at about the fourth grade level (old enough to be smart and young enough to be little guys). I started out at our local college. One of the first things we were asked to do was to take a math test. Nothing on it was above sixth grade level. Over half of the class FLUNKED. Another class I was taking before I decided this was all a bunch of stuff ended up being about bulletin board--in three weeks of class we could not decide what we would put on one.

I tried again several years later. Thinking it was just because our local college was small that the teacher program was so poor I tried at the U of A in Tucson. One semester of idiot teachers and idiot students and I quit again.

We need to have higher standards in our universities when choosing teachers who will teach future teachers. We need to pick and choose a little bit when allowing people into the teaching program. I know you do not have to be a genius to teach little kids but you should be able to do the work you supposedly just learned in high school.

Talking to several veteran teachers in recent years they are burned and bitter. School boards and principals will not back them up on discipline questions. Mama's lawyer or the threat of same is always right.

Some blame teaching fads, some blame parents some blame teachers. I think there is enough blame to go around.”

“there is enough blame to go around."
MaryPhyl


yes”

“Mary Phyl

I know what you mean. Most of the science teachers that I work with have a degree in a science field and experience and then got into teaching. I have my B.S. in Forestry, worked as a forester and am working on a masters in geography. As far as the courses we have to take to get certified, some were worthwhile but most were boring to stupid. The people who run the ed programs are,... well, I'll be charitible and stop there. I will say that they aren't crazy about letting us outsiders into the profession.”

“I will say that they aren't crazy about letting us outsiders into the profession."
JO
06:56:25 AM
06/09/03



bingo. they are elitist and that is wrong.....”

“elitist ? maybe a little, but basically IMO I think they are afraid and threatened.”

“ok......paranoid elitist”

“"Lord, the money we do spend on government and it's not one bit
better than the government we got for one-third the money twenty
years ago." --Will Rogers”

“Many (but a minority IMHO)public schools today are a mess and whether it's some liberals fault has been debated on another thread. my 2c is that you can blame parents.

Go back and reread my post. I didn't blame liberals for the state of our public education. In fact, I thought it was obvious that no one will want to take the blame for it. My point was that neither side would take the blame for the problems. Sure there are good schools out there, just like there are good things in garbage cans, but you have to pick through the trash to find them. No thanks.
The only experience I have with public schools is here in Ky, so maybe my view is jaded, given the fact that our students are by and large idiots. I think that most of a child's problems can be traced back to the parents, but when schools do things like letting everyone pass, or quit using traditional grading criteria in order not to hurt a child's feelings, then there is a problem at the school.
And don't ask me what I would do to solve the problem, because I probably don't have the answer. If I have to work two jobs to put my kid/s into a respected private school, that's what I'll do. It goes beyond the actual education, most problems in schools are in public schools, where all the lazy, alcoholic, dishonest people send their kids because it's free. I'm sure private schools have their problems too, but they aren't as prevalent. I've been a State Trooper for a little while now, and I have been called to public schools to jerk a knot in some thug's head more times than I can remember, but never once to a private school. I realize that 99% of the teachers and administrators are there because they want to do a good job, and that their hands are tied for the most part, a lot of them are friends simply due to the nature of our respective jobs, but the system as a whole does not inspire confidence.”

“"Tenured liberal professors who have dominated campus politics
since the 1970s haven't been knocked off their pedestals --
not yet -- but moss is spreading at their feet and cracks are
growing in the foundation." --Suzanne Fields”

“""Tenured liberal professors who have dominated campus politics
since the 1970s haven't been knocked off their pedestals --
not yet -- but moss is spreading at their feet and cracks are
growing in the foundation." --Suzanne Fields"
stratdewd
10:53:03 AM
06/09/03


I agree. Many of them have never held a real job in their lives. They went from career student to grad student to professor without ever getting experience in how the world works. They pass on their idealistic and unrealistic world view to their students who get a shock when they enter the work force and face reality.

No one should ever become a tenured professor without a minimum of five years in a private sector job in their field.”

“Why do you think they call it "Liberal Arts"?”

“What's a "real job" Gordon? One like yours?”