Use a GPS, go to jail

“I received this via email. Interesting.
===================================

For those of you who are familiar with this situation, here's an update, and
for those of you unfamiliar here's an overview:

I am the GIS Administrator for Warren County and I work in the county's
Planning Department.

In January, I was contacted by an investigator from the New York State
Education Department's Office of Professional Discipline. They had received
a complaint from a surveyor stating that I was surveying without a license.
I was using a Trimble Pathfinder Pro XR GPS unit to collect fire hydrant
locations and then plot them on a reference map.

Two investigators met with myself, our planning director, and our county
attorney. The investigators were unfamiliar with GPS and GIS and were
basically on a fact-finding mission. The investigation has progressed, and
today we met with the two investigators, an attorney from the Office for
Professional Discipline and a surveyor from the New York State Board of
Licensed Engineers and Land Surveyors. The state's attorney told us at the
beginning of the meeting that after reviewing the facts in the case, they do
feel that we are guilty of practicing surveying without a license. She then
gave our county attorney a chance to state our case, which I thought he did
very well. We were informed that the board will make a decision within the
next week. The outcome of today's meeting basically boils down to two
issues:

1) Were we practicing surveying illegally in this particular instance
(collecting fire hydrant locations in North Creek)? If we are found guilty,
we will be either asked to stop, or asked to stop and then referred to the
Attorney General's office for prosecution. This is where the involvement of
the Office of Professional Discipline ends.

2) Is any GIS or other person using a GPS unit to collect locational
information to create maps for public use guilty of land surveying? This is
obviously the larger issue, and the surveyors are ready to take us to task
on this one. Their Board is meeting next week and will discuss this issue.
I don't know if the surveyor present was representative of the entire board,
but he definitely believes that only licensed surveyors should be using GPS
to collect information such as we are (utilities, signs, etc) and implied
that his board is ready to introduce legislation in the State Assembly to
that effect.

We await the decision, and as we are deciding how to proceeed, I'd be
interested to get some feedback from all of you.


Sara Frankenfeld
GIS Administrator
Warren County Planning Department
1340 State Route 9
Lake George, NY 12845
(518) 761-6410
frankenfelds@co.warren.ny.us”

“I'm an LS as well as a PE and it seems odd to me that they would consider it practicing without a license. Its not really what falls under surveying in my book. If you were defining boundary corners, property lines, srteet layout, OK but gpsing hydrants? There shouldn't be anything beyond a board fine if they do nail you. Its hardly a jail time, formal prosecution thing.”

“Sounds like surveyors in NY are getting nervous about GPS taking some business away from them.

The Pro XR model will give you real time sub-centimeter positional accuracy under good conditions, but that still hardly classifies as surveying. She was just gathering point data for a GIS layer. Wonder where this will lead? Can trail mapping only be done by an LS?

I agree property lines and measuring real property should be by an LS, but gathering infrastructure data for GIS?”

“Dude unless your state has some crazy law, that I would argue to be unconstitutional, you have done nothing. Locational data is free to the public in public places. First of all what and who defines what surveying is. Its sure not based on the type of equipment you used. Heck you could take a flat table, pencil, and engineer's scale and accurately (within 6 inches & more accurate than most GPS systems) map anything. Of course, I know the Pro XR is better than that. Sounds like to me someone is scared of what you may do with the data. People get a little upset when they spend thousands on data to find that someone else has already collected it at a better quality. But still nobody can say anything to you until they find out your intent. If they have a case then they could have a case for following a GPS breadcrumb trail in your car or marking your favorite fishing spot. In my college days I worked (slaved) as a GPSer GPSing power lines. We constantly collected every thing we could (houses, edge of pavement, radio towers, waterlines, pools, and so on)even though we were only contracted to collect lines, poles, transformers, and meters. Also, if I send someone to do GPS work they are to map as much as possible especially if its 3000 miles away in an area which has very little data.”

“The problem is that licensing of professions and trades is for the protection of the people already in the profession or trade from competition and not about protecting the public. Licensing is sold to us a public protection but it is not and this is a classic example of that. What they want is for your city to be required to hire or contract a licensed surveyor to do the work at a much higher price. Construction workers do surveying all the time by a definition that broad. You will seldom see work going on without a transit, theodolite or other instrument somewhere on the project. When a proposal to license a profession or trade is made, watch who supports it. It is almost always supported by the people that would be licensed. They support it for there own enrichment not to protect the public. Any public protection is an unintended byproduct and prices for the services of these people usually go up. Let the consumer decide who to hire.”

“Sounds like a Union is involved.”

“It maybe just a matter of time before buying a sub meter accurate GPS requires a license.”

“We do a lot of GIS here , its got tons of cool applications. But like I and others have said, its not exactly surveying to be spotting points. There is some protection of the public (duty of care) in surveying and Engineering. For example I am PERSONALLY responsible if I as a PE design something that falls down, gets someone hurt, etc. Talk about caring. I don't totally dispute mtngal either, there is some protectionism there too.”

“Mtnman – a building designer the screwed up and ended up hurting people would be liable with or without a license. That liability is one of the reasons licensing is just a added layer of regulation that does not add protection. Certification by a disinterested party of a profession is a different issue. How many people look for only the MD license when selecting a doctor to make your boobs bigger or some other important procedure? Most people will look for a board certified Doc along with other things. Board cert are not required by law as far as I know. This type of certification is just information to help the consumer in the choice, not a restriction on trade. Beware when you hear, “We’re from the government and we’re here to help.””

“Yeah I understand as you described the protectionism issue. But as I said how can anyone say a word if they don't know the intent of the usage. And although we say sub meter and sub centimeter, it is understood that data collected by GPS could be locationally inaccurate in any condition using any amount of equipment. Those projects require surveyors. I guess I feel any hungover college student can GPS or at least use the equipment.”

“I don't think the actual data collection is what the surveyors would have a problem with. As noted above, locational data is public information. However, taking the collected data and turning that into a map, especially one available for public use, may be what they are concerned about. The resulting map might be an issue if it were presented in some legally binding fashion (i.e. property boundaries). However, tens of thousands of maps are generated in all sorts of professions. To presume that map-making is the sole domain of surveyors is absurd. At the very least, I think a disclaimer of some sort detailing the intent, accuracy, etc., on most maps would absolve the creator of someone else's misuse.

As an archaeologist, we once had a professional surveyor on a site with us; after watching us prepare a site map (using compass and tape) he told us we couldn't "legally" put contour lines on the map - only a licensed surveyor could do that. We said "Hmm, interesting." and continued, as the layout of the terrain was important to us. Subsequent use of GPS and Surfer made our lives much easier and our maps more accurate.”

“I'm on your side here although I am a surveyor, I don't do it because it pays s--t. I think Foamfinger may be right in that the use in a publicised format is the issue. Say you used gps points to input into a flood plain mapping program with GIS inetrface including overlays of building and streets and a county bought it for EM preparedness and when it flooded your projections were all wrong and property that should have been OK wasn't. That would be something where it could be considered surveying and be expected to have restrictions. I think anyone cracking down on the type of thing you're doing just doesn't have anything very important to do with their time. I have seen numerous surveyors screw up in big and expensive ways, the license itself means little. The board will crack down on these occasionally and take licenses away. In that way it helps some.”

“You guys know what GIS really stands for don't ya?

Get
It
Surveyed”

“Generally
Incomprehensible
Sh-t”

“It really stands for job security because no one seems to know how to use a planimeter or dot grid any more, or use a stereoscope, or .....”

“Gordon--I'm the only guy I know in a building stinky with engineers that still knows how to use a three screw transit or throw a chain, its sad.”

“umm meant to say four screw, dang now I'm slipping”

“I pulled a slide rule out of my desk the other day to do some quick and dirty math and two younger people in the room said
"What's that?"

I told them it was the latest in energy saving computers -- uses no electricity or batteries and never locks up.”

“How about a slide rule mtnman?”

“He went to jail for that what a crock of shi!.

It's good to see the law working!

8|”

“Sorry Mtn. Gal, I have to take exception to your reasoning on this one in two particular instances. Merely establishing liability does nothing to further the cause of public safety, a cause that you say is furthest from our professional and occupational licensing boards agenda if I understand your statements correctly.

Let us take for instance the electrical trades. I'm going to talk about homes exclusively, because there are more statistics available, and in most states where there is a DOPL that governs the trades, it is still legal for a homeowner to wire his own home if it is intended for his own use. (This doesn't mean he can't sell it after having lived in it momentarily) Many many people do this by the way.

There were 38,300 reported home electrical fires in 1998, resulting in 284 deaths, 1,184 injuries and $668.8 million in direct property damage. I have no idea of those fires how many represent professional vs. amateur wiring jobs, but the National Fire Protection Agency (NFPA) has a document that sets forth specific and detailed requirements regarding any electrical installation. It is commonly called the NEC, or National Electrical Code.

Who is responsible for enforcing this code? In must jurisdictions it is a public or municipal employee with another license, known as a building inspector.

Okay Mtn. Gal, let's say you're going to buy a home and move your family into it. Who wired it? Were they trained and knowledgable enough to follow safe wiring practices as set forth in the NEC? Did the homeowner that built the home wire it? Did a professional electrician who knew the ramifications of his actions do the work? Is it possible for a building inspector to find and "red-tag" every NEC violation? If your house burns down due to poor wiring practices, and one of your children dies from smoke inhalaton, is settling liability issues in a court of law going to bring back your child OR make you feel better about the situation?

I for one would want a house wired by a professional electrician, one who has passed a meaningful state exam to obtain a license, AFTER completing the requirements of a formal apprenticeship of some kind. Is this a guarantee that your house won't burn down as a result of an electrical fire? Nope. It's not even a guarantee that you're going to get a competent electrician if you hire a licensed one. But it does increase your odds greatly, and that's the bottom line, not gathering revenue or trying to put the screws to the public at large.

I realize that only covers one trade, but there are others with similar public liability where similar analogies can be drawn. Plumbing is one of those. Cutting hair on the other hand, IMHO is not.”

“Oh by the way Gordon, in my state, there is a public statute on the books. It's the one that requires licenses for certain professions. It is also the document that sets forth what those professions are, by definition, and what they are not, and who is and isn't required to comply with the law. That will probably be where this issue is settled, according to your state law and the definitions set forth in it. Most states have web sites that contain every law on the books if you know where to look. Start with the Division of Professional and Occupational Licensing for your state as a search string.”

“The "Code of Ethics" of the National Society of Professional Engineers" stresses safety as a paramount concern of engineers. Another fundamental part of the code is not working outside your area of expertise.

It seems to me that the issue here is purpose of the GPS data. If the engineer who is gathering the data is knowledgeable of the GPS, coordinate system, and layout he or she is using, and safety is not an issue, then there should be no problem. Lots of engineers work with layouts and measure locations. Industrial, Manufacturing, and Plant engineers do it every day.

My true guess, however, is that this is all about protectionism and small thinking people are involved. They are paranoid that an army of clerks with GPS units will take their jobs.

That reminds me of something that happened on our campus. Our students who were in the American Society of Civil Engineers wanted a place to work on their "concrete canoe" for a competition coming up. They managed to find a small spot that was just used for storage and got permission to build a work area. They got the spot cleaned up and a concrete pad poored. Then they got some lumber donated to build a lean-to type cover (open on three sides) to work under. Then they built the lean-to. GET THIS. A union-jerk complained and the union demanded the lean to be torn down and only be rebuilt with union labor. The Dean of Engineering said he would settle by paying the lost union wages plus extra. But no, it had to be torn down. So it was torn down and never rebuilt. I ended up giving the students a place in my department to work on the canoe. The students were totally pi$$ed off. The short-sighted union showed their colors to 600 civil engineering students (and who knows how many others) who will hate unions the rest of their lives. MYOPIA rules. (By the way, in terms of precidents, the unions on campus have let students work on stuff like this in the past as part of their learning experience. No one could believe how unreasonable they got over this.)”

“I've never been a member of a Union, but I have to admit they do some really boneheaded things. Along with some really good things. I guess the lesson to be learned in both my example and Phil's is, why won't people temper their actions and decision making processes with a little common sense? It seems that in every group there are a few extremists who will always take an issue beyond the point of reason. Even beyond a point of law in some cases.

I have to ask this question though; Were it not for state laws and regulatory commissions, do you folks REALLY think that the public safety at large would be properly served by the rules of business? ie, bad contractors wouldn't exist because they build poor quality buildings that fall down, lousy engineering wouldn't exist because after their first bridge collapsed they would be out of business, stupid plumbers wouldn't...... wait, that's redundant. (tic)At any rate, you get my question. I know NOTHING about cartography, but if my fire department were relying upon a GPS and a map to find a hydrant in the brush where I live (yes, some of them do have grass and brush hiding them) I'd want to make damn sure that they could find it, accurately and quickly. How do you assure that this is being done by someone with the proper tools and training, in the proper manner, using industry standards? Do the rules of business apply here? I'm not sure myself. Comments?”

“Technically, the code of ethics for engineers doesn't vary between private and government employment. Public safety is the top priority no matter what. Take the Challenger space shuttle disaster for example. That was ultimately a NASA (government) project. They put pressure on the Morton-Thiokol to approve the launch in spite of the cold temperatures. Morton-Thiokol engineers wouldn't approve the launch and were eventually excluded from the final vote on whether to go.

Fortunately, the Challenger disaster has been heavily analyzed and studied the past 15 years and used as case study on ethics, safety, and "whistle blowing."

I worked 15 years for General Motors and 20 years for the State of California. I can't say from my experience that the profit motive of private industry encourages any worse behavior than the protectionist attitudes and hidden agendas of many state employees.”

“I have been through building a home here in MI. There are building codes that must be followed to a tee, whether or not you are licenced... builder, plumber, Electrician, Mechanical, the same inspectors look @ and either red tag or approve a permit to continue on with the project. It is well known that they look at the DIY builder closer than a licenced one.

I would not hesitate to buy a home built under these codes.. as I have seen some work done by "licensed" Building, Plumbing, electrical, and mechanical contractors some of these guys want to get in and out and get $$$ a homeowner who is doing his own work will take a little longer to do it right !!

So Mtn Gal I wouldn't rule out buying a home from a DIY but in either case Hire a home inspector to go through it prior to buying it. This would be the smart thing to do anyway.

As far as the fire Hydrants aroound here it is the responsibility of the land owner that the hydrant is located on, if it is a vacant lot the fire department takes care of it, the fire dept. also drives around @ regular intervals to check and flush them out so they know their jobs and locations of them with out having to look for them, sort of like peeing at night.”

“All interesting comments all of you. Phil, I'm impressed by your knowledge of the Challenger incident and the politics involved. Most people hear Morton-Thiokol, and the first thing they think is, "Oh, they're the ones that had the faulty O-rings that caused the Challenger incident". Fact of the matter is, those booster motors were tested to NASA specifications, and NASA succumbed to pressure to fly way below what those tests confirmed was a safe temperature. In the end, a politician's desire to carry on a conversation with a teacher in space was deemed more politically important than the safety of the mission. The ONLY reason Thiokol survived is because NASA was allowed to make us the scapegoat in exchange for a re-design contract and allowing us to continue to build these boosters.

In response to Muttley's comments, I have this to add:

In a perfect world, inspectors would catch every problem. In reality, they may catch a few, or even most, but probably not all. Finding every problem means tracing every wire, staring at every cable sheath with a magnifying glass and opening every outlet box, and inspectors just don't have that kind of time. Those of us who've been in the trade for a long time are aware of how inspectors are pressed for time. Bad electricians take advantage of this situation, but good electricians wire with professional pride and won't compromise their integrity. Make sure you get the latter to do your wiring. As for those who choose to "do it yourself", well, my experience in general is no matter how much you care, no matter how many books you have read, no matter how much you love your family and want them to never have to go through a house fire, there is no substitute for years of experience and knowledge gleaned from working under the close supervision of someone who knows safe wiring practices and insists that they be conformed to. I'm not talking about the "minimum requirement" of the applicable codes, I'm talking about not doing things that you know aren't safe, because you were taught by someone who HAS that experience. Just my 2 cents worth.”

“Hobbit, I concur. In my profession I have seen some homemaker’s cakes and cookies that will kill a horse. For the safety of the family, it is a job better left for the professionals. :)”

“Hobbit and Griz: FYI I had an 800 sq. ft. second story addition added to my house in 1990. The contractor got the plans made and through plan check in about three weeks...which was unheard of. He told me his secret: He does everything to code and the city knows it from his previous projects in our city. I swear, if we have the "big one", the city may collapse, but my second story isn't going anywhere. (Those 8" steel columns on 2.5 ft. deep piers are pretty impressive).”

“But then again Phil, in one of our buildings we had a electrical contractor hook 2 110 hot lines into a GFI then to a light. Threw the switch, the bulbs exploded and the GFI's fried.

It's tough to find good help nowdays.”

“I'm sitting here laughing. Thanks, I needed that.

For every example demonstrating a position on every issue, there will be someone who can dig up three more demonstrating the opposite view. That goes both ways of course. All that really matters in the end is that I've enjoyed this thread and the comments posted to it, and it has given me pause to think about both sides of this particular issue, as well as a couple of grins.”

“I have family that live in North Creek, NY. Beautiful country up there... Plan on going to Siamese Pond in the fall when the black flies are not too bad.

I was just shaking my head.. the shame ofyou being such a freelance survyor... Sounds like someone is trying to protect their jobs...

Sparky”