Who believes in Global Warming?

“The technologies exist, and I'm sure we're willing to sell them to them. So, if they have plenty of money and the technology is available, all that is lacking is the political will.”

“No, we can't sell to them because of Politics.


I am fuzzy on this fact. the briefing i was at, the rep. from the Beijing paper was grilling the Chinese Environmentalist about inabilities to get US technology for this problem.
last edited: 2/10/06 1:28:12 PM”

“Ever been to Beijing? The first time I was there I spend a week in total shock. The air was stratified and brown (see link to picture below). I coughed for a week after I got out of that place. Anyone that tells me we are a worse polluter than China needs to go spend a week in Beijing.

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/Photo_shows/Beijing_DecJan0304/2425Dec03/IMG_1868.JPG

You can't tell from this picture but the mountain range that should be visible in this picture is obscured by pollution. The air is so thick you feel like you can wave it away with your hand...

Southwest view. Notice where the sky stops and the brown starts...

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/Photo_shows/Beijing_DecJan0304/2425Dec03/IMG_1871.JPG

This was more what I saw from the street...


last edited: 2/10/06 1:33:15 PM”

“Beijing is horrible. However, as a country, we are bigger polluters. A vast majority of Chinese still live in a rural setting and China is still predominately rural.”

“U.S. - bigger exporter; smaller polluter”

“Apples to oranges.

We also produce $4T more GDP than they do with 300M people to their 1,300M. They have over 4 times the population and have a GDP that is only 2/3 of ours.”

“The US is currently the world's biggest polluter. The reason that you see the huge difference is that much of China is still largely rural, agricultural land, particularly in the west - there are concentrations near big industrial centers and the pollution is bad there. In the US industry is fairly well spaced out. There's also better pollution controls in place. Even though they're not perfect, the snog of places like LA is not so bad.

Overall the US pollutes more, with less population, but China is catching up rapido.”

“WTF? We POLLUTE more. No frikken dumb ass excuses.

Or would you like to say China and India are allowed to pollute as much as us per capita?????? Or GDP?

Bull#&%!$.

On a bad summer morning, my eyes will burn from pollution if I'm near the Potomac. Ozone. I tried to run one summer in DC. Couldn't do it.

How long do we need to fix these problems?
last edited: 2/10/06 2:07:34 PM”

“Which pollutes more: A dump truck or a Honda Civic?

Most people would say the dump truck is the obvious choice.

Is that accurate? It probably is. Standing next to a dump truck choking on the barfed-out black smoke you could get pretty pissed off.

Is that a fair comparison? No way. The diesel dump truck can haul far more cargo than a Honda Civic. It has a different purpose for which it was designed. Also, there are far more Honda Civics than dump trucks in operation at any one time.

Just looking at a list of who dumps more carbon into the air doesn’t answer much of anything. The USA pollutes more? Sure, I suppose. It's just a measurement. I don't understand how it's made and I am not sure if I trust it, but it's just a measured number.”

“well it's also milage too, I drive a big car, but I take public transport to work, so it's mainly a weekend car, some weeks it doesn't get used at all.”

“We also produce $4T more GDP than they do with 300M people to their 1,300M. They have over 4 times the population and have a GDP that is only 2/3 of ours.

... because they live in poverty.”

“yeah they do”

“JS - wouldn't you say though, that the wealthiest truck owner in the world is the one who could afford to cut his pollution down?”

“but it's just a measured number.”
Jimmy san
3:13:45 PM
2/10/06


Like beats/minute?”

“I did some simple math not knowing what I would get. I am not trying to piss people off.

China recently produced 3,541 million metric tons of CO2, while the USA produced 5,796 million. China has a GDP of $8.158T and the USA has one of $12.37.

So each trillion dollars China produces pukes out 434 tons of CO2. Each trillion dollars the USA produces pukes out 469 tons.

That means that the USA produces 7% more CO2 per trillion dollars of GDP produced.

...the USA dump truck carries 1/3 more dirt than China's is 7% less fuel efficient.”

“Poverty is somewhat a matter of perception.

For instance it sounds bad to hear that 100 million Chinese people live in caves, not so bad to hear that 100 million chinese people live in apartments dug into hillsides.”

“lonesurveyor - rest assured - they're living in poverty.”

“---
“No, we can't sell to them because of Politics.


I am fuzzy on this fact. the briefing i was at, the rep. from the Beijing paper was grilling the Chinese Environmentalist about inabilities to get US technology for this problem.
---

I don't believe this. I'm not saying you're lying, I'm saying the Chinese are. I can't think of an overriding national security interest that would keep us from selling smokestack scrubbers and the like to China.

Ah, the wonderful issues we confront when dealing with dictatorships...”

“---
So each trillion dollars China produces pukes out 434 tons of CO2. Each trillion dollars the USA produces pukes out 469 tons.

That means that the USA produces 7% more CO2 per trillion dollars of GDP produced.

...the USA dump truck carries 1/3 more dirt than China's is 7% less fuel efficient.”
---

This is an interesting analysis. I'm pretty sure this is because a lot of the pollution we create is the result of activities that don't contribute to our production, like automobiles. China doesn't have nearly as many.

Also it would be interesting to see the rates of production for other pollutants.”

“Well seeing we're going to use PPP, why don't we compare the EU pollution levels as it's an economy about the same size as the USA by this definition.”

“bump

burrrrrrrrr”

“EU? I thought we were looking at the civilized world like the USA and China.”

“http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4755328.stm

Europe's "Little Ice Age" may have been triggered by the 14th Century Black Death plague, according to a new study.

Pollen and leaf data support the idea that millions of trees sprang up on abandoned farmland, soaking up carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.”

“So, californians should have winter down bags and Xcountry skis in their earthquake kits?”

“http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4761804.stm

The global scientific body on climate change is expected to report soon that emissions from humankind is the only explanation for major changes on Earth.

The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) formerly said greenhouse gases were "probably" to blame.

What's this... a consensus? ;op”

“you people who are concerned sure are using a lot of electricity - I'm guessing your computers are powered by bicycles?

”

“Discredit the messenger, good tactic.”

“Sarge goes for a moronic answer yet again. (In this instance I'm not calling sarge a moron, simply what he's saying). He seems to want to turn it into all or nothing. It's like suggesting someone who needs to lose a few pounds never eat again.”

“Whoa! One problem with that logic MarkO. In this case, it's the messenger who is saying that we need to change our ways. That is the whole point of the message they are delivering! Their very message is that other people need to change their ways. If they aren't willing to sacrifice, and they believe so strongly in human-induced global warming as an epidemic, then why would anybody else change their ways?

uh-uh ... Homey don't play that.

Y2 - nothing moronic about suggesting people not be hypocritical. They are perfectly willing to tell others to save the planet, but don't do it themselves. Most tree huggers I've ever met drive cars, have cable, computers, etc etc .... and then think they're contributing to the saving of the planet because their car gets 30 mpg instead of 24 and they use "natural" deodorant made out of coconut or some crap. That's what is moronic.
last edited: 3/01/06 12:07:36 PM”

“"Most tree huggers I've met"

Can't argue with that. "We" lose.”

“Sarge, are you saying that unless people are jumpin' through your hoops that they have no right to discuss the problem?

How does a problem get addressed without discussion??

Your tactic is Limbaugh 101, not original at all.

How do you know the "messenger" is not willing to sacrifice.

I'll hang up and listen to your answer on the air.”

“Sarge, are you saying that unless people are jumpin' through your hoops that they have no right to discuss the problem?

Not at all. In fact, I said nothing of the sort. What I said was (assuming you won't scroll up and read it again) is that they are asking others to change but don't change themselves. If it's such a big deal, they need to set an example before trying to enforce legislation for everybody else to change.

How does a problem get addressed without discussion??

I agree, and my problem is not and never was with discussion. I actually appreciate the alternate viewpoints. What I don't appreciate, once again, is the hypocrites who are not willing to change their lifestyle but try to make me change mine.

Your tactic is Limbaugh 101, not original at all.

I should be famous and rich then, I don't listen to Limbaugh, can't stand him in fact.

How do you know the "messenger" is not willing to sacrifice.

Because unless he tapped into the internet via a stick and programmed TrailTalk, I know he's using a computer. Plus, if he's honest, he'll tell you he drives a car, uses too much electricity, and uses many products produced via environmentally unfriendly means. But, that's a big "if".

I'll hang up and listen to your answer on the air.

You do that.”

“"Because unless he tapped into the internet via a stick and programmed TrailTalk, I know he's using a computer."

Silly boy!!

"Plus, if he's honest, he'll tell you he drives a car, uses too much electricity, and uses many products produced via environmentally unfriendly means."

Why do you assume "he" doesn't??

You are just dismissive......nothing to add to the discussion.

(why am I talking to this guy?)”

“Sarge - seriously - I can't understand how you can't get the concepts of reducing energy consumption and pollution rather than eliminating it altogether?

Explain to me what you don't understand about the different concepts of
1) using energy more efficiently and
2) not using any energy at all?”

“MarkO - If you believe that most, or even many, of the people who cry "global warming" are doing much more than other (sane) people to "save the planet" by recycling their X-Box instead of throwing it in the trash, you are fooling yourself. We can agree to disagree on this.”

“uh-uh ... Homey don't play that.

Sarge
12:02:03 PM
3/01/06

There is very little in this world which arouses my scornful pity than a chubby, fugly, white surburban dork trying to talk gangsta.

Give me a jingle if you want to talk about it, or if you want to pimp some ho's guffaw!: 1-800-DRLAURA
last edited: 3/01/06 12:35:26 PM”

“Sarge - seriously - I can't understand how you can't get the concepts of reducing energy consumption and pollution rather than eliminating it altogether?

Slow down there Y2. I get it very much. I understand that environmentalists are not saying we need to stop all energy consumption. I don't think I've said otherwise. What I did say (once again) is that they do very little, if anything at all, to help the problem themselves.

Here's the deal guys ... your pathetic attempts to save the environment by:

buying a Jetta instead of a Jeep, when you could be walking/riding a bike

buying 15" monitor instead of a 19" monitor, when you could be going without a PC or using the one at the library

recycling your beer bottles instead of not drinking beer

etc etc...

just aren't enough to justify you telling me and companies and the government that they need to drastically, to the tune of millions and billions of dollars, change their ways.”

“Sarge - the whole point if everyone does something small then progress can be made. It's not an overnight thing.

Take it one step at a time.”

“Really? I thought it was too late? I thought we'd have to make drastic steps to even HOPE to change the tide? Isn't that what they're saying? Do you disagree with that? Do you believe all we need to do is make "little" steps, for now, and then we'll be ok?
last edited: 3/01/06 12:43:59 PM”

“Sarge - there is a middle ground though. You don't have to go back to year zero to do your bit. The thing is for the little things to work, the majority of people need to sign up to it. People are relistic here, and a lot can be achieved by moderate changes in lifestle. Public transport is basically crap in most of the U.S., so most people have to own a car - that's a reality - but if everyone gets a car that's 20% more efficient then that's life a fifth of the drivers in the US getting rid of their cars. Alternatively, if it's avalable, then they can use public transport for the majority of your journeys. I actually prefer it. I get to read for 40 minutes a day.


You seem to want to make it an all-or-nothing issue, when it's not.
The whole point of the argument is to gradually do your bit to change things.”

“You seem to want to make it an all-or-nothing issue, when it's not.
The whole point of the argument is to gradually do your bit to change things.

Apparently you aren't watching the same PBS shows I'm watching.”

“Cutting US gasoline consumption by 20% is in these terms, a drastic turnaround, but can be achieved by everyone using a 20% more fuel efficient vehicle. A 25 mpg car and not a 20 mpg car. Most importantly, a start needs to be made somewhere.

This would also cut by 20% the massive amount of cash America hands the middle east, nigeria or venezuella daily to run its cars.
Chavez - basically you're paying to keep him in power and let him take digs at bush.”

“"...you could be going without a PC or using the one at the library."
I am working in a library right now!

"...buying a Jetta instead of a Jeep, when you could be walking/riding a bike."

I own a Scion(30 city/38 hwy) and walk to work.

"...recycling your beer bottles instead of not drinking beer."

Oh ballz, another reformed drinker telling me to mend my ways!!
No way, Righteous Johnny!!
last edited: 3/01/06 12:54:38 PM”

“Sarge - you seem to want to take this argument and want to make it one of crazy extremes - in reality the steps to start doing something are really very basic.

You've said already that you use energy-efficient lightbulbs, what else could you do?”

“One of my pals bought a corn stove a few months ago and has been cheatin' the propane man this winter.

Just last week he bought a VW diesel and he's itchin' to find a source for bio-diesel so he can cheat the petroleum industry bastards even further!!”

“The Best energy efficient lightbulbs are made in China.”

“'Rapid Warming' Spreads Havoc in Canada's Forests
Tiny Beetles Destroying Pines

By Doug Struck
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, March 1, 2006; A01



QUESNEL, B.C. -- Millions of acres of Canada's lush green forests are turning red in spasms of death. A voracious beetle, whose population has exploded with the warming climate, is killing more trees than wildfires or logging.

The mountain pine beetle has infested an area three times the size of Maryland, devastating swaths of lodgepole pines and reshaping the future of the forest and the communities in it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/28/AR2006022801772_pf.html”

“I went and drove one of the new Dodge Caliburs today. Sweet car. I'm glad Dode is finally making a half way decent car mileage wise.”

“Nova presented a fascinating show last evening about 2 fortified British Navy sail/steam ships with about 135 men which attempted to sail the Northwest Passage around Canada in the late 1840's.

They picked the worst year possible and the ships became ice-locked but with years worth of supplies onboard most of the crew survived where the ships were frozen for years, during which, even though they had sailed to that point on open water, the sea refused to melt during the summer the following 2 summers. Finally, the remaining crew tried walking South with the last 4 survivors apparently surviving close to 3 more years but never reaching civilization, as pieced together over the years from artifacts and notes left by the survivors and from interviews with the natives of the area during the several years following the disappearance of the ships and crews.

Now, the same route thru the Northwest Passage could be easily sailed by 2 such ships and crew, due to much warmer times now.
last edited: 3/01/06 2:17:38 PM”