Who believes in Global Warming?

“I've been sorta looking at this thread forever, and wanted to post this (I think) very important correction...

This thread shouldn't be entitled Who "believes" in Global warming, because Global Warming is an indisputable FACT! The title should be more along the lines of "who believes humans are responsible" for global warming?

Just had to add this... it's very minor, I know, but we shouldn't be talking about whether global warming exists, or not, we should be talking about what we can do about it.
last edited: 7/17/06 4:28:44 PM”

“Actually, this thread was started back in 02. Back then many were disputing the whole idea.

Sadly, there are still a few doing that today.”

“If their hero the Shrub admits even the *possibility* of global warming... does this mean they finally admit he's fallible?

For the past six years it's like they're all Catholic and he's the freakin Pope fer chrissakes...

--- LOL ---”

“The USA is not the source or the only source of the problem.

Factoid from Tom Brokejaw's show:

China expects to bring online one coal fired power plant each week for the next 7 years (thats 364), to burn high-sulphur coal without smokestack scrubbers

not to mention the burgeoning human numbers in the tropics and their hell-bent desire to cut every tree in sight.
last edited: 7/17/06 7:32:32 PM”

“Just rec'd a couple of links from an old friend at the Climate and Radiation Branch at Goddard...


Rainy Days Driven by Traffic Patterns, Study Says

NASA Explains Puzzling Impact Of Polluted Skies On Climate”

“I can't help, because many years ago I had Angela Davis for a prof. of 'History of Science'.It went beyond education.”

“WHEW finally someone has a "scientific" way to solve the problem.....

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=2202916&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312


HEY it is ABC news...so it has to be truthful right ????(LOL)....This is a logical as anything else being proposed.”

“Does anyone on this board know how to spell,'population'?”

“"People who take issue with control of population do not understand that if it is not done in a graceful way, nature will do it in a brutal fashion."

http://dieoff.org/page147.htm”

“Thats right...there is noway Mankind can figure a way to grow more food...take care of needs...LOL...RIIIIIGHT...Good Positive thinking....Moriarty”

“XL, its not just a matter of growing more food, more food can be grown, for a short time, but at the expense of air quality, water quality, with increaing soil deterioration and loss of biodiversity.

Its a matter of longterm carrying capacity and the higher the human numbers go before Negative Population Growth (NPG, it will occur) sets in the more degraded the world's carrying capacity will be for the survivors

and all the 'positive thought' of people like you in the world will not allow the exceeding of the physical limits of this world except for a short time.
last edited: 7/18/06 8:14:58 AM”

“Thats right...an man cannot fly, or go to the moon...or cure diseases...PLEASE. As long as you say it CANNOT BE DONE...it never will.”

“What, XL, do you think I am saying that cannot be done? I am suggesting people find a way to a sustainable world. Your mindset is ripe with disaster.

I really do not care to have the blind leading those that cannot see into oblivion.

What have people really accomplished? Lets see, we are well into causing the largest 'extinction event' on Earth in 60 million years. Maybe you think that is our purpose and you want to see the job done right. So go the plants and animals, so go the people.
last edited: 7/18/06 8:39:15 AM”

“Lone...I see the point...it is just that I think the DOOM AND GLOOM mentality falls into the Socialists dogma of SHARED PAIN.If you convince people that Individuality is destructive then ONLY THE GOVERNMENT CAN SOLVE IT.

Sorry I cannot see that working. Too many people are permenantly stuck on failure. THis discounts the GOD GIVEN ability of Man to overcome obstacles.”

“Additionally, for XL,

people still can't fly (except with the aid of machines)

the efforts and resources of tens of thousands were required to get 2 people on the moon for a few hours 6 or so times and they say could not be done now short of a several year effort

and there's more disease than ever.”

“".it is just that I think the DOOM AND GLOOM mentality falls into the Socialists dogma of SHARED PAIN.If you convince people that Individuality is destructive then ONLY THE GOVERNMENT CAN SOLVE IT." - and that's why you ignore all the facts and the scientific consensus.

You're not letting the facts get in the way of your political dogma. Admitting there's a problem is tantamount to admitting something needs to be done.”

“Too many people are permenantly stuck on failure. THis discounts the GOD GIVEN ability of Man to overcome obstacles.”
XL400236

isn't it just the opposite? aren't the rest of us trying to determine a reasonable course of action to change the status quo?”

“Nah Roam you are looking for another nice way to be a GOOD VICTIM (LOL)....victims need pity that is why being a victim is so much fun.

Victims can't help being in the situation they are in so victims are not asked to take responsibility for ANYTHING.”

“you got it exactly backwards. Taking responsibility IS looking for solutions.

Solutions - ways to make things better in the future.”

“But um when you say the problem is OUT OF CONTROL...ie We have destroyed the planet and there is NOTHING short of screwing up our lives and society we can do...you are saying there is nothing positive we can do. We have to destroy our lives (victim) to survive.....

Global Warming places the power in the Government (albeit one we never voted for) not in people's hands so we let them decide.

Roam I want to see solutions that improve life not destroy our society to make some mud humping thug in a third world "feel better" becuase we are hurting like he is.”

““But um when you say the problem is OUT OF CONTROL...ie We have destroyed the planet and there is NOTHING short of screwing up our lives and society we can do...you are saying there is nothing positive we can do. We have to destroy our lives (victim) to survive.....

I didn't say that....

Roam I want to see solutions that improve life not destroy our society to make some mud humping thug in a third world "feel better" becuase we are hurting like he is.”

Yes! we agree. I also feel that because of our status as a major world power and the leading industrialized nation and the best place to live on earth that we should take the lead and set an example. NOT sit and do nothing just because some third world countries and other developing nations are not being asked to do the same. They should ALL pitch in, but perhaps not all at first - they shouldn't be given free passes either, but whether all nations take equal steps or not should not determine what WE do.”

“Saying something is out of control does not preclude it from being brought into control.”

“By " set the example" you are saying the government should accept a treaty with no other purpose than to DESTROY....our national productivity?

Sorry Kyoto was rejected by a majority liberal congress (and President). I have a better idea we go where the actual destruction is taking place..say China (have you heard about the massive destruction taking place to nature in the Socialist Paradise?

I like it when people tell us to set the example....Kinda like, "you know you do (insert item here) but that makes the rest of us feel bad."

Called share the pain. I do not believe in Share the pain. That comes from the same thought that gives us, "The Rich got theirs from STEALING it from the poor."

This is victimhood pure and simple. I would do better but I keep losing the lottery of life garbage. This takes you out of the cycle becuase your success depends on someone else stopping being successful.”

“WOW did you know we had 5 hurricanes/ Tropical Storms by this time last year.....must be the global warming.”

“By " set the example" you are saying the government should accept a treaty with no other purpose than to DESTROY....our national productivity?

nope, i am not saying that at all - i'm simply saying that we should LEAD, as opposed to stalemate and create avoidance.

I've not studied the Kyoto business.

Some examples of what I mean would be to:
increase the Cafe standards sooner than ten years from now.
We could put more funding into alternative fuel development.
We could enforce the Clean Air act rather than give exemptions to coal plants that chose to ask for exemptions rather than install stack scrubbers.
There are a host of things we could do that would be LEADERSHIP on this issue.”

“Roam...it is not the line an file that bother me...it is the leadership. FOr instance the cleanest power production is Nuke...but in most parts of the country you could not get a nuke plant past the Garbage red tape.

Each solution of the Leadership of the Envior wckos includes the hallmarks of the dead Communist Socialist movement.”

“Yeah - but why all teh garbage red tape that prevents the best solution? Is it fear (and thus a lack of education)? Or is it protectionism of the "old guard" around fossil fuel industrial types?

And, how do we overcome all of that - the answer comes down to LEADERSHIP. Somebody has to be willing to make the unpopular choice and piss off an entire industry group!”

“You mean like the people who peeved off the Railroad industry, or the Steam ship industry or God forbid...the buggy whip industry....things either grow or die.

My problem is how much is worth it and how much is just people looking for free government money to do bs with. When people predict doom....and nothing happens (you know something like the oceans will be dead in 10 years) there is no recourse against them.

I wonder how many potential successes were thrown away becuase people shot the idea down with no responsibility.”

“Yes, progress of the group (ie - our society) means that individuals (ie - lobbying groups) get hurt.”

“I think Lobbyists should be required to wear CLOWN suits....or they could be ex President's.....nah that would NEVER happen.”

“Our political process would work a lot more efficiently and effectively if it were not a for profit business!”

“Roam the system would work better if the pols knew they had to eventually return home...”

“and if we were to take the money out of politics, I bet we'd have a lot fewer politicians!”

“But then Money is technically Free Speech. IMHO the McCain (I got caught so it must be wrong) Feingold act was a sham and a violation of the First Amendment.

Rather the politician should have to list all donors, their names, addresses, employer and a photo for over $1,000.”

““But then Money is technically Free Speech".


Yea, kinda like Communion is technically ritual cannibalism.

Sorry that just popped into my head and I had to share.

OK, everyone back to your posts.”

“mtn...LOL..yeah I heard that a number of years ago....ofcourse the person who said it was a middle school kid who was an athiest....

SO you believe that being able to purchase advertising for or against something you believe in is not considered Free Speech?”

“I understand it's free speech, but the amounts of money changing hands are obscene. To say it doesn't influence votes would be naive.
last edited: 7/19/06 8:57:24 AM”

“XL - nukes are dirtier than coal when you add in building the structure that contains the deadly stuff (concrete takes mega BTU's to make), then another 30-50 years to clean up and destroy the structure. Then the radioactivity is around for another million years.

Nuclear energy is NOT the cleanest source of energy. It is the dirtiest. It is also the most expensive.”

“Wind Farms are really cool though....

unless your a bat.

-------------------------

the money in our political system only serves to ensure that the entity or interest with the deepest pockets tends to get his voice heard more consistently and with greater interest by the person cashing the check.

Just ask Jack A. how that works, he'll tell ya.”

“Turn on the TV and look through the 'econo-MIST' at Bernankes' fed speak. Where is the problem?”

“OH MAN...the NY TIMES just scooped the whole Global Warming thing.....

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/18/opinion/18tue4.html?ex=1310875200&en=b3839188b2ba9d63&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss

The gist is....IT SUMMER!”

“You still think nukes are cheap and clean?”

“LOL - cool article.”

“Tech...UM YEAH....we have two nuke plants within 30 mins of my town...I wish we had more. Lets remember that more people have died in Teddy Kennedy's Car than in US Nuclear Power accidents.

Three Mile Island proved we can handle the genie.”

“One of the dirtier parts of nuclear power is the mining, processing and transport of the fuel

activities which have and continue to cause many deaths.”

“XL - you sound exactly like Sarge. There have been other things you've said that have sounded like him, too... hmmm

Anyway, I completely forgot to mention the fuel mining, processing issues, too. Thanks for adding that lonesurveyor. Take the fuel mining and radioactivity issues, combine them with the massive concrete/lead facilities and nuclear is WAY dirtier than anything else.

I covered this extensively a few months ago on this thread, discussing this with...Sarge.”

“Speaking of mining of energy resources:

While coal mining accidents and deaths in the US have become less frequent due to safety measures, each one is still a tragedy and makes the news.

In China, on the other hand, I have read that coal mining deaths of miners average close to 20 per day or about 6,000 per year, just an acceptable cost for a burgeoning economy, I guess.
last edited: 7/21/06 7:50:27 AM”

“Lone- when they have an earthquake they do a cursory S&R and then after 48-72 hours the begin Dynamiting to clear land for rebuilding. Life has no meaning in China.
As for Coal mining, the stuff in W VA is the high sulphur content stuff. The low sulphur stuff is mined out west with strip mining. The only thing keeping the killer mines in operation in W Va is Senator 'Sheets" Byrd.”

“WASHINGTON, July 27 — Coal-burning utilities are contributing money to one of the few remaining climate scientists openly critical of the broad consensus that fossil fuel emissions are intensifying global warming.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/28/science/28climate.html?_r=1&oref=slogin”