Who believes in Global Warming?

“Ah, I see. I don't want to say this too loud, but I may have learned something today on TT.”

“A really thoughtful government initiative would offer grants to individual home owners to encourage more energy conservation and micro generation schemes for individual homes or groups of homes.”

“From my perspective, that's like asking "if a dad beats his son less than he beats his daughter, isn't he just encouraging his son to change sexes?"

I doc't know how to answer thar.”

“Ok. Well, I was saying I see it as the same thing if Alt Energy Co A gets to pay $20K less in taxes or gets $20K in a grant.

You're talking about sex changes which would result in fewer net beatings, and I just can't support that.

Of course, when I made that statement, I was not considering the fact that it will take 40 new gov't jobs to administer that grant.
last edited: 10/18/07 8:55:39 AM”

“Ok. Well, I was saying I see it as the same thing if Alt Energy Co A gets to pay $20K less in taxes or gets $20K in a grant.

Your original question was about a conservative perspective. From a conservative's perspective, Co A isn't paying $20K less - Co B is paying $20K more.”

“Y2, I know that there are incentives for installing a wind turbine on your home. the thread about ecobling reported that (I think the dude said he got a $3000 grant for spending $15,000 on the turbine and that he would save $20 a month on his electric bill).

I know that if I do certain energy saving things I get a discount from my power company.”

“That sucker'll be paid off in 75 years.”

“They're normally about being willing to cut your usage in times of super high demand Hyway - not about offering real deductions over time.

That's part of the problem though, the incentives aren't there. Micro generation is an area where government research grants could be useful. Development in this area is not going to come from a big generator as they're not going to cut their own throats.”

“Something tells me there might be more than $240 in maintenance a year.”

“good point”

“Oh, and don't forget the upcoming tax for getting "off the grid". The Al Gore Off the Grid tax.”

“So being green really means giving up yo green?”

“another advantage for the taxpayer for granting tax breaks to an industry rather than grants to an individual company is that any company in that field can get the tax break regardless of their size, but to get the grant you have to beg, contribute to the right party, pay a consultant to write your grant, beg some more, roll over and fetch, and/or promise to come up with the results the granting entity is looking for. We all know that politics/personal favors never play a roll in handing out grants so I am not even talking about that. I am talking about just teh time it takes to apply for a grant which could be better spent working on your business.”

“How about we (the government) not even play that game at all? I'm sick of the lesser of two evils arguments.”

“I had a conversation with a guy the other day who told me that he has come to a point in his life that he wants to start being more environmentally active. That its time to stop talking about it and he is now doing it. His first action was to go after a guy who had the audacity to run a business in an area where rich people decided to build their expensive homes. They used something he did to the polluted, bottle field ditch behind his business as a wetlands issue to try to shut him down. next he told me that his wife's car gets 10 million miles to the gallon or something like that and it only costs $30,000. But hey, he has seen used cars like it selling for $15,000. I asked him what my neighbor who works at walmart (a different convo we had) should do when he only had $1500 available to buy a car.

It went on and on like that. Almost every solution he had was way out of the price range of most people.”

“Well he's a fool then Hyway - because you don't need do the expensive stuff to improve things. It's all about taking one small step after another. Sure big steps are good, but it just involves people doing what they can. You replace an appliance, then go for a more efficient one. You replace a car for $150 tor $50k, then just make sure it uses slightly less fuel than the one you had before. Change out an old blown light bulb with a more efficient one. Try and recycle a little more.
last edited: 10/18/07 9:34:05 AM”

“You can pass out grants of billions , just to save Las Vegas' light consumption. You can drill Anwr, to get enough to get LA to Las Vegas each week end. Invade Venezuela so all the wasted airline weekenders can gamble.

We all don't Vegas, but I'm sure we all have something close.”

“Style over substance.

meaningless”

“If you look hard enough you'll find business already runs government and is doing the best they can to give it a bad name. A real world does exist under all the complicated crap that is held in front of it to disguise it from the few real people that are left. Otherwise, government is just the fallguy and source of subsidies for the operators of business, but don't call them lobbyist, the successful might get mad.
last edited: 10/18/07 10:22:06 AM”

“wow, and of those so few real people left, you consider yourself one? thats convenient”

“Some people can see through the BS better than others , I can't really tell you if I'm one of those people, but do know that government( fed) has nothing to with the people and only recognizes big groups with big logos and thus big money. It is in the interest of business to keep gov. looking just bad enough that the worst of business still stands above it.”

“we agree on that cliff. No matter who you elect, once they get there they are assimilated by the machine and become part of the Borg.

But this is nothing new. American foreign policy has always been about protecting American businesses. Our military forces ran roughshod over many banana republics protecting US fruit companies.”

“Hyway is sooo correct. We sent a Congressman to Washington (Charlie Norwood) bet Tilty doesn't know the REAL reason he ran for Congress?

He was part of the 94 Freshman class...but he ran because he was angry that the Government was requiring him to wear Gloves when examining Dental Patients. (NO SHIP)

But he fell into the Government system and a guy who in his first couple of terms was known for going into corner drugstores in small towns to sit with the guys and shoot the bull was more of a "politician" than a servant of the people.

OH with home produced electricity..normally (since electricity has to be used WHEN produced) here is connection on your turbine that will send power BACK down the line when you produce more than you use. You are actually PAID for it (at least that is the Georgia Power thing).

Look I am not opposed to Government per se. As Sarge said there are times ONLY the government can handle situations. But when it comes to encouraging "personal innovation" they are miserable.”

“Y2, yes, one step at a time. It only cost me a few hundred bucks to cut my home's energy useage 25%. Now that I've done the "low hanging fruit", the next 25% cut will probably cost me $10K-$15K. The dollar-to-energy-savings curve starts curving upwards sharply after that.”

“What did that few hundred bucks get you?

And just how much power do those little led's on my tv and dvd player use(the ones that stay on when the machine is off)? the guy from the power company said they were power eaters and I should use a power strip that I turn off when I'm not using them. Who wants to reprogram their tv twice a day?”

“fap fap fap fap fap fap fap”

“Most people could cut their usage considerably with very little effort in terms of insulation, cutting waste (like standby tvs) and turning their heating down a couple of degrees, or their ac up.”

“I'm challenging my communities rule of concrete tile only Roofing, for panels- what jerks they can be. Plug in hybrid and full EV comming soon here. I do regret living in a house I didn't wire.”

“Cliff, you can get a steel roof that looks like put near anything you want.

I have a friend in California who was in a neighborhood that mandated the Wood Shake Roofing. He had the steel roof (looks like wood shake) during one of the firestorms his was one of VERY few houses that didn't burn.....”

“I'm working on a way to store pee in the walls for the winter. It comes out so warm, by storing it in tubes in the walls, it should keep the room at a balmy 96 degrees F.

When it cools, it will be recycled for drinking water.

And so on ... and so on ...

Still working on another concept too, trying to use poo for concrete mix. When you're done with your house you break out the sledgehammers and use it for fertilizer. Just don't forget to drink the wall pee first.”

“XL, I want some solar panels, but they interpret concrete roofing only to exclude the panels. They have to be legally challenged before mowing the lawn.

That metal roofing is the way to go, especially here in the 'dust devil' capital of the world
last edited: 10/18/07 12:39:38 PM”

“ductape, I just saw your question, I've been gone family camping this weekend. That few hundred bucks I spent got me about $25-$35 off my bill every month (average), over the last year and a half.

Just a week or so ago I was BSing with some friends and they started #&%!$ing about their $300 (average) electric bills. I mentioned mine is about $100 (average) and is going down. If looks could kill...”

“I agree with you tech that the first layer of energy efficiency is easy and cheap. Of course, some people have houses that are bigger than they need and their bills will always be high. But even they can lower their bills if they try. With that said, I can't remember if you have kids? I know mine tend to be pretty big energy hogs :)”

“I can't tell you how many times I would go in my kids room late at night and have to turn off the tv, lamps, cd players, or whatever else that was on when they fell asleep. It seems like I am the only one in my house that knows how to turn off a light. The really sad part is the kids were between 18 and 21 years old. Thankfully one got married. Since he has moved out my bill has dropped about 40-50 dollars per month.
Now if I can only get rid of the other one....
last edited: 10/22/07 3:52:56 PM”

“Solar power is the topic on NOVA Tuesday night.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/solar/

HMmm.  It appears to be a repeat from last April.”

“Tech, that's pretty sweet. Maybe I should look more into saving some energy around the house.

I just figured if we got an auditor out here we'd get the old "insulate your ductwork, unplug things with lights that stay on, and get new light bulbs."

My electric company will give us a break if they can put a governor on our air conditioning unit. They get to turn it off during peak usage for 30 minutes at a time, a maximum of twice a day I think. Also, if you're having an event or party or something, you can notify them and you'll be taken off the list.

We've only been in our house since the beginning of July, but we got a couple of bills over $200. It got me wondering what it will be like in the winter.”

“hyway, two in elementary school. They are usually pretty good about turning off the lights, but not always. My big complaint is water... if we don't monitor them they'll stay in the shower for a half-hour, I'm guessing just about the time the water heater goes cold. Once I came home from work and heard water running upstairs. I bolted upstairs thinking we had a burst pipe, and found their sink cold water tap running at half-on. All day. I'm on a well, and running that pump isn't cheap! Could have been worse, it could have been the hot water tap on full blast.”

“ductape, if you do your own research online you don't need an auditor. The basic list is what you said, plus some other basics.

Cheap list (few hundred bucks for the whole list):
- caulk air leaks around windows
- replace leaking weather/jam strips on doors
- wrap water heater in 6" fiberglass insulation (if you have a gas heater, leave room around the ignition system and vent pipe; forget the cheap water heater wraps the stores carry)
- install water heater timer if you have electric water heat; can be done for gas heaters but is more complicated
- put all electronics on switched outlets or switched power strips
- change all lights to CFL's

More expensive (several thousand depending on what you do):
- make sure you have R-45 insulation in your attic, R-20 in your floor if you have a crawl space or unheated basement
- if you get new siding, add a layer of high-density insulation (pink/blue stuff) and wrap in Tyvek before putting on new siding (make sure your new siding is light colored!)
- double/triple glazed window replacements, although this is much less effective than the commercials on the radio want you to think (R-1 for single glazed vs. R-2.5 for a good triple-glaze; you might do better buying insulated curtains and keeping your old windows)
- add radiant barrier (like Reflectix) to rafters in attic, or if you are replacing the roof sheathing, get plywood with a radiant barrier built-in

Expensive (ten thousand+ for each):
- ground-sourced heat pumps (cost 1/3 as much to run than an air-sourced heat pump or air conditioner, and they fit inside in a closet)
- add radiant floor heating with solar thermal panels (ground-sourced heat pump is a backup heat source in winter)
- solar electric/PV panels (best done after you have done everything else above)
- steel roofing (today you can get it to look like anything including slate, wood shakes, or traditional shingles)”

“My July and August electricity bills were $466 and $429, for the Phx area, due to having run the AC pretty much day and night. Altho I run it high, at 80 in the day and 78 at night for sleeping(only upstairs), it's a 4k sf house.

The first bill we thought something was wrong, which they denied, then the second one came..... bummer.”

“Carbon Dioxide Levels Rising Faster Than Predicted, Study Says

By Alex Morales

Oct. 23 (Bloomberg) -- Carbon dioxide is collecting in the atmosphere faster than forecast as the use of dirtier fuels increases worldwide, an Australian-led team of scientists said.

Rising levels of the main gas blamed for climate change threatens to accelerate global warming, the researchers said. The study builds on previous findings and may lead to a change in the way scientists predict climate change.

The growth rate of carbon dioxide, or CO2, emissions has averaged 3.3 percent a year since 2000, compared with 1.1 percent in the 1990s, according to a study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. The rate rose 35 percent more than scientists had anticipated based on economic growth, said Corinne Le Quere, one of the authors of the paper.

``The causes of the acceleration are surprising,'' Le Quere, a scientist at the U.K. government-funded British Antarctic Survey in Cambridge, said in a telephone interview. ``One is that we are not as efficient at using CO2 as we had anticipated, and the second cause is that it appears that the CO2 sinks are weakening,'' she said, referring to the oceans and land that absorb the gas.

The findings have implications for predictions of global warming, because most climate models assume humans will improve the efficiency with which they produce energy, Le Quere said. Only the most extreme models predict a weakening of the carbon sinks, she said.”

“It gets expensive here in the winter in our tin house.... Note to anyone who buys a mobile home----- get it extra insulated.”

“Mine is about 2900 sq. ft. No basement or finished attic. I keep the A/C at about 75, and the heat on 67. However, we have a wood stove so the heating systems only kick on if we are away for the weekend, and upstairs will kick on starting at 3 AM when the fire downstairs has died down. Our winter and summer bills are helped since we are in the woods - lots of shade for summer and its a wind barrier in winter. Like always with property, location is paramount, especially for energy use.

Focus on your daily kW, not your $ bill. I made a spreadsheet that tracks all the info based on the numbers on my monthly bill. Two years ago I was using 40 kW per day. Today I'm down to 30 kW after doing all the stuff on the "cheap list" above. Once I finish some stuff on the "more expensive" list, and one or two things on the "expensive" list, I plan on getting down to 15-20 kW. Some households get down to 10 kW, but I don't think I can get that low.”

“perhaps we are improving the efficiency with which we produce energy, but nature doesn't give a damn anyway since it will do what it will do whether we like it or not.

Buy land on high ground.”

“So, what libs are going to admit that Al Gore flat out lied throughout his movie?”

“One more addition to the "cheap" list above:

- buy a Kill-A-Watt meter ($30) to help you track down inefficient appliances

One more addition to the "more expensive" list above:

- replace all refrigerators and freezers more than 5 years old with new energy-efficient models


A 20-year old fridge came with our house, and it was using 6.5 kW per day, all by itself. Ouch. I replaced it last year with a new one that uses 1.5 kW per day.”

“http://www.worldnetdaily.com/staticarticles/article58279.html

...

Is then global warming – a steady rise in the temperature of the Earth to where the polar ice caps melt, oceans rise 23 feet, cities sink into the sea and horrendous hurricanes devastate the land – an imminent and mortal danger?

Put me down as a disbeliever.

...

We are told global warming was responsible for the hurricane summer of Katrina and Rita that devastated Texas, Mississippi and New Orleans. Yet Dr. William Gray, perhaps the nation's foremost expert on hurricanes, says he and his most experienced colleagues believe humans have little impact on global warming and global warming cannot explain the frequency or ferocity of hurricanes. After all, we had more hurricanes in the first half of the 20th century than in the last 50 years, as global warming was taking place.

...

"We're brainwashing our children," says Gray. "They're going to the Gore movie ('An Inconvenient Truth') and being fed all this. It's ridiculous. ... We'll look back on all of this in 10 or 15 years and realize how foolish it was."

Gray does concede that for a scholar to question global warming can put his next federal grant in mortal peril.

While modest warming has taken place, there is no conclusive evidence human beings are responsible, no conclusive evidence Earth's temperature is rising dangerously or will reach intolerable levels and no conclusive evidence that warming will do more harm than good.

The glaciers may be receding, but the polar bear population is growing, alarmingly in some Canadian Indian villages. Though more people on our planet of 6 billion may die of heat, estimates are that many more may be spared death from the cold. The Arctic ice cap may be shrinking, but that may mean year-round passage through northern Canadian waters from the Atlantic to the Pacific and the immense resources of the Arctic made more accessible to man. Why else did Vladimir Putin's boys make their dash to claim the pole?

The mammoth government we have today is a result of politicians rushing to solve "crises" by creating and empowering new federal agencies.

...”

“"Why else did Vladimir Putin's boys make their dash to claim the pole?"

For the oil and natural gas under that submerged land. It supposedly has vast reserves.”

“I think he means before that. - the original "dash".
last edited: 10/23/07 9:28:08 AM”

“Oct. 22, 2007

GREEN ALGA GENOME PROJECT CATALOGS CARBON CAPTURE MACHINERY

Further evidence for the decline of the oceans' historical role as an important sink for atmospheric carbon dioxide is supplied by new research by environmental scientists from the University of East Anglia (UEA).

Since the industrial revolution, much of the CO2 we have released into the atmosphere has been taken up by the world's oceans which act as a strong 'sink' for the emissions.

This has slowed climate change. Without this uptake, CO2 levels would have risen much faster and the climate would be warming more rapidly.

A paper in the Journal of Geophysical Research by Dr Ute Schuster and Professor Andrew Watson of UEA's School of Environmental Sciences again raises concerns that the oceans might be slowing their uptake of CO2.

Results of their decade-long study in the North Atlantic show that the uptake in this ocean, which is the most intense sink for atmospheric CO2, slowed down dramatically between the mid-nineties and the early 2000s.”

“Who is going to pay for the Grid if everyone is on solar power which needs the Grid.

and else where in the news Global Warming is causing the Leaf Peepers in the Carolinas to complain-No Color this year.”