Who believes in Global Warming?

“I pay a yearly average of about $40 per month for electricity. There's a nice fast stream running through my front yeard and I briefly considered doing something hydroelectric to save/make energy, but with that low of an electric bill it hardly seemed worth the trouble. I do not have air conditioning, choosing instead to open the windows during the night of the hot months and close them during the day. With ceiling fans it works quite well. Kitchen range, water heater and furnace are all propane. I just finished installing a wood burning stove on the main floor and expect to save close to $300 a month (during the 6-7 cold months of the year) by using free wood. The wood was harvested from my 40, but recently was asked by a lady in the next town over to remove about 100 or so red oak from her property. It costs about $10 per round trip for the truck, but I balance that against the cost of a full cord of wood and it seems quite advantageous. I eliminated cable t.v. from my life and currently read about 5-7 books per week. Cutting, loading, splitting and stacking the wood is getting a little tiresome, but the physical benefit to me is worth the price. Also, I can take a day off whenever I want. With my garden, a few chickens (come spring) and some other changes, I am becoming significantly less dependant on the outside world. About once a week I can drive to town and see all the cool people to find out what I'm missing. I'm good so long as they don't close the library:)”

“Let us know when you complete your manifesto!

:-)”

“nimble, I doubt that it will add up to much, but instead of just giving your electric bill you should give your monthly energy costs. How much is your gas bill monthly? How long does a truckload of wood last. I don't know how big your truck is, but is it safe to say that you might use 2 truckloads a month in the winter? More, less. So if 2 truckloads then your monthly cost is $60 plus the gas (another $15-$20? so say $75 to $80)

Of course, I don't know how much you cook or how long your hot showers are so it may be considerably less.”

“Sarge - I've certainly got the time to write one:)

Hyway - I can't yet determine my monthly energy bill. The 500 gal propane tank was filled sometime during late winter of '06. I average spending $300 per month on propane during the heating months. Cost of hot water, showers and cooking will have to wait until I refill the tank. Even then it won't be particularly accurate be cause there will be a couple of '06 heating months factored in. Fuel for cutting, splitting and transporting the wood is easier. A gallong of gas for the chainsaw lasts about a week, a gallon for the splitter lasts about 2 days. If my neighbor takes his splitter back (boo), there is no fuel cost for splitting, but an increased consumption of oatmeal, bacon eggs, etc. I probably won't get into splitting (pun) all the hairs of various bits of fuel, they just aren't that much when compared to the decreased propane consumption.

Also, when installing my wood stove, I tore off some wallboard and discovered some pretty crappy insulating. If funds are available I intend to replace the exterior siding this dummer and reinsulate as well. In the meantime, it's sort of fun.”

“Hehe, I wasn't planning on you adding up your oatmeal costs or subtracting the cost of a gym membership that you don't need. Just the basic costs like you said $10 a load of wood times however many loads you use a month. And what ever it costs to refill the propane tank divided by how many months since the last refill.”

“Don't let Putin hang Santa like Sadam.”

“The fun factor in droppin' trees and chunkin' 'em up and splittin' the chunks far out-weighs any savings.

Humpin' the chunks around is also priceless.”

“People should really check out the track record of 'WorldNetDaily' if they want a good laugh.

I'd be interested in the return Nimble is getting, in terms of BTUs of firewood per gallon of oatmeal.”

“The fart gas produced by that kinda diet must also be taken into account.”

“Absolutely.”

“I converted the heater in my wood truck so that it sucks instead of blows. In the engine compartment there is a hose leading from the backside of the heater to the carbuerator. Thus all of my oatmeal produced methane is channeled directly to the engine allowing me to drive free.

I understand MarkO tried a similar technique, only he cut out the middle man (heater) and ran a hose from his butt directly to the carb. His mpg savings is said to be incredible, but he's eternally driving around with this big grin on his face and no one knows for sure. The only loser in this enterprise is said to be "Butch", his pet gerbil.”

“Yep.  Better go light on that gas pedal or the Preparation H costs will overtake the fuel savings.”

“The fun factor in droppin' trees and chunkin' 'em up and splittin' the chunks far out-weighs any savings.

Humpin' the chunks around is also priceless.”
MarkOTheBeast
8:52:26 AM
10/24/07



When I was a kid, my dad worked for a company that spun birch logs for the veneer. The remaining core was a perfectly round log that my dad and other employees were allowed to take home for firewood. It was the easiest hauling and stacking wood ever!”

“Which is cleaner, Wood, Natural Gas or Fuel Oil?

Cutting trees for heating. What does that do to your carbon footprint? Net Zero? Minus Plus

I say again if solar power needs the grid to work who will pay for the grid once we are all on solar power”

“Wouldn't it be the same as it is now? You pay to be hooked in, get credited for power you send out, and debited for power you bring in?”

“Nimrod, my understanding is that the carbon footprint is roughly the same if a tree lies on the forest floor and slowly decomposes or burns in my stove. The disadvantage is I get no free heat from rotting wood. My own hypocrisy in implementing this theory is that I have decided to hike off into the woods when it's time to die and slowly decompose, rather than die a civilized death and end up cremated.”

“That reminds me of a song a friend of mine wrote.  He called it "De Composition in Middle C"”

“"When I was a kid, my dad worked for a company that spun birch logs for the veneer."

Does Sass know about this?”

“.... Taking Birch out for a spin?”

“I am more worried about noncom's ease of hauling and stacking birch's wood. How often does he do it that its become easy? Or is that a statement on the size of Birch's wood? That noncom sure is a trouble maker.”

“There be some strange go'ins on over in that there Michigan.”

“Nimblefoot - you need to count the gas as part of your energy bill since its an external energy source. The wood doesn't count since its produced locally. (edit: I just read the rest of this page and I see this was discussed)


"Who is going to pay for the Grid if everyone is on solar power which needs the Grid" -nimrod

Nimrod, grid-tie systems still require monthly connection fees from the local electric company. That pays for the grid itself. I think in my area is $7.50 per month.

As for burning firewood, that's carbon neutral.
last edited: 10/24/07 11:48:35 AM”

“Why shouldn't the wood count. Its used as an alternative source for heat. Without it the electric or gas bill would be higher. And I thought it was think global, act local. It all counts, since local production would have global implications if everyone burned wood for heat.”

“I'm curious to see my first power bill now that we've moved. R13 walls and R30 attic. Seer13 on the HVAC. All of that is pretty average. The walls may be R19, but I think they're 13. I did low-E with argon fill on the windows. I did the gas fired instantaneous hot water heater so I'm not storing water. The appliances are all the engergy star models. The washer and dryer are the front loading types. I've insulated the walls of the unfinished basement. 2 sides are against the dirt and 2 are exterior walls. My big energy suck is the pool. I figure my electric bills will suck this summer but they might not be too bad with the water heater and appliances that I got. Time will tell.”

“Techtrk
and you believe that being connected to the grid for the price of $7.50 is going to remain constant if more consumers use solar power. Increase solar power by a thousand fold(or so) and and that connection price will go way up! Like as much the average bill is now. ($7.50 times the number of consumers is not the cost to run and maintain the grid)”

“nimrod that is the same kind of thinking that makes environmentalist push biofuels. Biofuels are great when its only being used by a handful of the population. But if we tried to make a significant dent in oil usage by using biofuels the side affects will be staggering. There is already food shortages around the world (for various reasons) what will happen when food crops are replaced by crops for biofuel? Not only will more people go hungry but the cost of beef, cheese, milk, etc will go up as the cost of feed stock goes up. More rain forests will be cut down either for soybeans of for biofuels.

Home Wind turbines are great when just a few use them. If every home has one what would be the incentive for a power company to keep the grid maintained other than Rural Utilities Service requirement? Of course the connection fee would have to go up.”

“From the Wall Street Journal, John Christy of the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change and co-recipient of this years Peace Prize with Al Gore speaks out about the Peace Prize.

CNN interviewer: I assume you're not happy about sharing this award with Al Gore. You going to renounce it in some way?
CHRISTY: Well, as a scientist at the University of Alabama in Huntsville, I always thought that, and I may sound like the Grinch who stole Christmas here, that prizes were given for performance, and not for promotional activities. And when I look at the world, I see that the carbon dioxide rate is increasing, and energy demand, of course, is increasing. And that's because, without energy, life is brutal and short. So I don't see very much effect in trying to scare people into not using energy when it is the very basis of how we can live in our society.

CNN interviewer: So what about the movie do you take issue with, then, Dr. Christy?
CHRISTY: Well, there's any number of things. I suppose, fundamentally, it's the fact that someone is speaking about a science that I've been very heavily involved in and have labored so hard in, and been humiliated by, in the sense that the climate is so difficult to understand, Mother Nature is so complex, and so the uncertainties are great, and then to hear someone speak with such certainty and such confidence about what the climate is going to do is, well, I suppose I could be kind and say, it's annoying to me.

CNN interviewer: But you just got through saying that carbon dioxide levels are up, temperatures are going up. There is a certain degree of certainty that goes along with that, right?
CHRISTY: Well, the carbon dioxide is going up. And remember that carbon dioxide is plant food in the fundamental sense. All of life depends on the fact carbon dioxide is in the atmosphere. So we're fortunate it's not a toxic gas. But, on the other hand, what is the climate doing? And when we build, and I'm one of the few people in the world that actually builds these climate data sets, we don't see the catastrophic changes that are being promoted all over the place. For example, I suppose CNN did not announce two weeks ago when the Antarctic sea ice extent reached its all-time maximum, even though, in the Arctic in the North Pole, it reached its all-time minimum.”

“From UAH, cool.”

“The whole global warming thing burns me up.”

“That's not you burning, it's the Earth. Aren't you paying attention?”

“I'm really perplexed now, just got back from my daily wood haul and returned with a half cord. I didn't use my saw, so no fuel was used there and I won a bunch of money at the casino on the way home, so it paid for both my truck fuel and my oatmeal. I'm sure some power money was spent with all those whirring lights and ringing bells, but that wasn't my buck. Well, whatever; you smart guys will figure it out for me:)”

“and with your winnings you will be buying a hooker. She has to travel to your house or you to her 'place'. Forgetting the cruelty to animals that took place during research for her make up you must add in the carbon footprint of the vibrating bed.”

“and not to mention that hot shower before and after”

“If you wish to purchase a high grade prostitute and take him/her/it in a limo to a four star hotel, you can offset the magnitude of that carbon footprint by purchasing "hooker credits."”

“cool!!”

“I think I've got some hooker credits left from the 60's, but don't know if they'll transfer stateside (oddly enough, v.d. will).

Four star motel? I'd have to travel out of state.”

“Your hooker credits will transfer if you were in a country that signed up as a member of the Toe-to-Toe Treaty.



I thought Wisconsin had a Motel 6? Four star is relative to the state your in. (or the relative you're in if you're from the south)
last edited: 10/25/07 9:06:39 AM”

“OOOPS

http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/monckton/goreerrors.html

More reasons why the Church of EnvrioSocialisim is now competing with Scientology as the loon religion of the 21st century”

“I think Nonconformist was talkin' 'bout YOO, FoxyLady.”

“Coming from a guy wearing a happy bunny padded bathrobe and an Apron thats really not a big response there Marky Mark.”

“Hooker Chemical and Love Canal

Bahahahahahahahahahahahahha”

“Irony is often Ironical.”

“From the loon left that put'near sees everything now as part of the High Church of Global Warming


http://action.foe.org/content.jsp?content_KEY=3406

No one fire can be blamed on global warming, but there is no doubt that changes in our climate are causing more fires that are more severe. The tragic events unfolding in California are yet another stark reminder that action is needed to combat global warming now, and the EPA should not stand in the way of California's lead.

Then they get hit with....

Climate is too complex for accurate predictions
19:00 25 October 2007
NewScientist.com news service
Jim Giles

Climate change models, no matter how powerful, can never give a precise prediction of how greenhouse gases will warm the Earth, according to a new study.

The result will provide ammunition to those who argue not enough is known about global warming to warrant taking action.

[b]

http://environment.newscientist.com/article/dn12833-climate-is-too-complex-for-accurate-predictions.html”

“hyway - the wood counts when it comes to total enerby input, true. I was going for the "damage to the environment" angle. Any energy you can't produce locally and isn't carbon neutral will (and is already) cause problems down the road.

nimrod - actually, yes. From an accounting standpoint those "interconnection fees" go to grid maintenance and only grid maintenance. Maintenance isn't going to skyrocket just because a lot of people become a micro-generator with solar panels on their roof. The same lines, transformers and other equipment will be necessary, since not everyone will be able to be a micro-generator, people in cloudy areas will have to be supplemented by those in the sun on any given day, etc. Plus somewhere (eventually) a storage solution will be necessary to get through the night.”

“tech, you're right this is a gloabl warming thread so its teh carbon footprint that matters, I was just reminding people that there is more to their energy cost (financial) than just the electric bill. We won't get into the positive effects of decomposing wood in the forest vs. it being burned.

about the interconnection fees. Say you own a ski lodge. You rent skis, charge for the ski lift, sell food and gear, and provide lodging for guests. You must also maintain your slopes, drainage, lighting, lifts, etc. All of those things cost money that are offset by the profits of you total operation so that the costs of lift tickets are kept to a minimum.

Now lets say most people start showing up in RV's staying in an adjacent free site, bring their own food, skis other and gear and just pay you for the use of the lift. Are you going to be able to maintain all that other stuff besides the left for the few that still might want it (as required by the Rural Skiing Administration) while maintaining the same price on the lift ticket? I think not.

oh, I forgot to add that you must also agree to buy any food left over from the RV's as well.
last edited: 10/26/07 8:50:18 AM”

“Naturally, I have no scientific evidence to support this, but it seems that cutting up mostly dead and down trees, likely less than 10 per acre (on my land), would have a minimal impact on the forest floor in terms of decomposition value. A little less acidic decomposition might even permit more "valuable" plant life to emerge - or more desirable animal life to thrive...or so it "seems".”

“That kind of thinking brings up one of my favorite jokes ...

Whats the difference between a developer and an environmentalist?

A developer wants to build a house in the woods. An environmentalist already has one.

You as an individual might make minimal impact, but lets say everyone in your nearest town wanted to use wood for their heating needs. Then add in the next biggest towns. What is the impact then? Isn't that how the carbon footprint of individuals is supposed to be all about? As individuals its minimal, but as a group is it still minimal?”

“Wasn't it established (perhaps not) that there is zero difference in carbon footprint whether the wood is burned in a stove or decomposes in the woods? The only difference is the speed? If property owners were clear cutting their land for firewood that could be problematic, but they're not. Loggers, on the other hand...”

“we weren't talking about the carbon footprint anymore. I was responding to this statement ... cutting up mostly dead and down trees, likely less than 10 per acre (on my land), would have a minimal impact on the forest floor in terms of decomposition value.

I wasn't talking about loggers because they make the same impact on the forest floor as cutting for firewood.”

“If person "A" spends lots of computer time aruging that there is man-made global warming, and he encourages persons "B" and "C" to do the same, what is person "A"'s environmental footprint? How many carbon credits would he have to purchase to undo the damage to the planet he is causing? What about person's "D" - "ZZZ" who spend the electricity to read such dialog?

Thanks in advance.”