Who believes in Global Warming?

“Forget global warming; has any president or leader in the world addressed environmental issues in any meaningful way?”

“NASA says

Last year was the fourth warmest since systematic temperature measurements began around the world in the 19th century, NASA scientists said yesterday.

Particularly high temperatures were measured over Alaska, the Caspian Sea region of Europe and the Antarctic Peninsula, while the United States was unusually cool. But the global average continued a 30-year rise that is "due primarily to increasing greenhouse gases in the atmosphere," said Dr. James E. Hansen, director of NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, in Manhattan.”

“trailhound, well the Dutch have been pretty good, the Germans.”

“sacco - do you really believe that? I'm not calling you out I'm just curious.
Ultra - why wouldn't melting glaciers cause the sea levels to rise
v2 - I just don't think that it's fair to rip on bush when no president or world leader has done much about it.”

“I'm not asking for miracles, but at least other leaders bound themselves to the Kyoto Treaty as a start. Admitting there is a problem. Bush seems content to do nothing on a legislative side. There needs to be a clear, all-embracing environmental policy rather than seeking to chip away at existing legislation.”

“I believe in global warming…and the easter bunny…and santa claus…and evolution…and the tooth fairy…and bearmagnet’s success with women…”

“lol Nigal - yes, as long as it doesn't hit 90 in January in Ohio then there is no problem.
In Alaska however http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4120755.stm”

“ultimately, our leaders aren't to blame, we are. if we changed they way we live our lives, it would make a far larger difference than any legislation. if we put more emphasis on environmental concerns when we vote, our leaders would respond.

basically, the american people don't care enough about these issues, so why should our leaders?

bush has a poor environmental track record, but he shouldn't be a scapegoat, either.”

“srperry01 -

Melting glaciers will in fact cause sea levels to rise, I believe Ultra was confused with the artic ice cap. Melting of the artic ice, which is already displacing the water, will not cause sea levels to rise.

And yes I have no doubt that we are responsible for a very miniscule amount of the warming, and that the vast majority is simply a natural process that we happen to be witnessing.
last edited: 2/16/05 11:47:00 AM”

“nigal,

there's overwhelming evidence that the earth's atmosphere is warming. this issue is what's causing it.

i'll be on the lookout for the easter bunny and santa.”

“Why do enviro whackos always want to complain about the US but seem to give all the heaviest polluters like China a pass? Why not work on them? Wait, don’t tell me, it’s the US’ greedy thirst for low cost products that fuel these Chinese factories, right? All roads lead to my front door. What a sad sack of a bassturd I am. LOL!”

“Nigal - Actually, America is the biggest pulluter. But you're right - the rate of growth and industrialization in China and India means they need to be tackled next.”

“yes sperry, i believe that

global warming
the extinction of the dodo
the decimation of the buffalo
and smog are all just nature doing it's thing. [/sarcasm]”

“jmich, hasn't it also been proven that the earth has gone through simular warming trends before?”

““Nigal - Actually, America is the biggest pulluter."

Documentation?”

“Source - IEA from 2002.”

“Nice start. How about something not from a news paper? Especially the BBC? Any figures out there concerning greenhouse gasses per capita?”

“Yes as a matter of fact many times before even recently, and before the industrial revolution. So why get all bent outta shape about it now?

As an example we know from the archeological record that temps in Britian were on average 3 degrees higher than they were in 2000, around year 900 (from the type of plant species that grew at that time). We weren't doing a whole lot of polluting back then. And the temp then was beyond what scientists are now saying would be runaway warming? Gimme a break...

The only difference between the late 1st millenium and now is our power to observe the changes around us on a much greater scale, not the range of temperatures.
last edited: 2/16/05 12:00:18 PM”

“Bison - the issue is not that the world warms and cools, but the rate at which is happens and the human impact on it. You can't tell me that pumping this stuff into the atmosphere is a good thing. You've been on Skyline in the summer. There are days when you can barely see the Massanutten.
last edited: 2/16/05 12:05:38 PM”

“I hear you sacco, just trying to pinpoint your thoughts.
I do believe in global warming. the only thing is I can't believe that we as humans have as large of an impact as some people would lead you to believe. (please remember this is only my opinion) I just don't see how gigantic volcano's erupt spewing more toxic chemicals into the air and mother earth takes care of that but she can't handle a fraction of the amount of gas emmited from my car.
Please don't bash me. I would love to have a hybrid and I do recycle. I don't litter. I'm a pretty good guy for the most part. I promise. I just think that global warming is a natural process and cycle that the earth has been going through for millions of years.
I do agree that bush has a bad track record with enviornmental issue's and I wish that he would be more proactive. it is dissapointing but I don't for one second believe that kerry would have done anything different. they have agenda's and some or most of the time it's not going to please everyone. this just happens to be one of those times and we are in a format where we all love the earth and it's nature and don't want to see it change in a negative way.
and that dodo bird was asking for it coming straight up to those humans like that. survival of the fittest damn it! j/k”

“What if some of you guys are wrong about this?

To err on the side of caution might be better than to err on the side of carelessness.”

“Nigal, you prolly don't want to get into figures for greenhouse gasses per capita. America has a lower population that the 25 nations of the EU, less than a third of the population of China and India. Per Capita would look even worse.

It sources the data it comes from. The International Energy Agency. Look at the chart in the story.”

“and bearmagnet’s success with women…”
Nigal
12:43:13 PM
2/16/05

Why you trying to drag me into this?

But I'll finally admit it: I made up some of the parts of the stories about the keys and the hookers:

The "Keys" were to my handcuffs and we had hot monkey love in the cab.

The Hookers thought I was so hot that they gave me a freebie.”

“"global warming is just a natural process.

like the extinction of the dodo or the irradication of the buffalo."
sacco

You're actually saying the erradication of the buffalo was a natural process?
last edited: 2/16/05 12:13:47 PM”

“This is old (1999), but it shows the per capita emissions of greenhouse gases for different countries (see Annex B). The US is 3rd with 20.7 Per capita emissions, Canada is 2nd with 22.2, and Australia is first with 27.9.
http://www.tai.org.au/WhatsNew_Files/WhatsNew/Percapita280802.pdf”

“Now I'm jealous.......you turd!
last edited: 2/16/05 12:15:43 PM”

“See! That's what i tried to avoid. But Nigal kept trying to call me out, demanding the "truth" whatever the costs.

Hope your happy, Nigaliberal.”

“sperry. i don't knock you or anyone's opinions about global warming well, err, for the most part.

there are many people who are much smarter than anyone on TT who study global warming for a living. and some say it's happening and some say it ain't. some say it's cause of us and some say it ain't.


all of us on this thread are like a bunch of 3rd graders argueing over where babies come from.

personally, i agree w/ markos statement that it's better safe than sorry.

but most of all, i care about smog, pollution, and acid rain which are undeniably our fault and undeniably are very bad for the environment.
last edited: 2/16/05 12:20:21 PM”

“Nigal, looking at this it looks like Australia is the worst offender per capita, but has what, 15-20 million people.

American per capita emissions are roughly twice that of Germany and the UK.”

“Global warming is definitely happening - BUT - please let me continue.

When I was not that much younger, crows ended and ravens began about 40 km north of Montreal.

The Badlands of southwestern Alberta possessed the only vulture (red headed) nesting sites.

Eagles of any kind - except ospreys - were unknown in Canada.

There is now a mix crows and ravens in Sudbury, northern Ontario where my daughter lives.

We have not only red headed vultures here now - as far north as a 150 km north of Montreal, I sighted black headed (southern) vultures where I live last summer.

Bald eagles now nest as far North as Newfoundland and Labrador (the only province brave enough to name itself after two breeds of dog).

The Innuit have no word for 'robin' or 'lightening, both of which now occur in the Arctic.

Industrialisation probably accelerates the process.

However,

...

is the process natural and irreversible? And if so, will the Kyoto (now legally) Treaty slow the process? If the process is slowable, but not (as I believe) reversible, what are the advantages to slowing it if such can be done?

What bothers me is the BS surrounding the question. Like much of modern science (can you say Variant Creuzfeld Joacob's Disease?) information pollution robs the confidence of people like you and I.

One thousand years ago there was a flourishing Norse community living by raising cattle and fishing (just like in Norway) on the southwestern tip of Greenland. Climactic cooling forced the abandonment of this community circa 1400 CE (Christian Era).

At this time cities built on the seacoast or on estuaries existed such as Oslo, Stokholm, Paris, Dublin, London, Hamburg, et c. thrived. The story that they will disappear are ridiculous and harm confidence in those who make a living in alarming us.

Stories about global warming destroying species before others can arrive are rubbish - viz. the birds.

The Innuit might disappear, but Norse records of them appearing in Greenland are extant.

In my opinion, pollution and the desecration of wild places are a far more important problem and one that can be successfully addressed in our lifetime - the ozone layer is now stable, BTW (Canadian space observation).

Luckily, the control of pollution necessarily reduces the 'green house' gasses.

I think it naïve to believe that slowing down the warming process will give us more time to prepare. Unlees there is a truly quantum leap in human social and mental development, we shall react when it becomes absolutely necessary to survive.

When I was a school boy, the debate about Norse settlement in America was dominated by the name 'Vinland' and people claimed it had to have been in Massachussets because that is how far north wild vines grew. Forty years later vines are killing my plum trees and we know that one thousand years ago there were grasslands in Greenland.


I strongly recommend Farley Mowat's 'Westviking' which chronicles the Norse exploration and settlement of the New World during the first millenium.

Just my 2¢.

Doug”

“nigal,

as my post stated, the earth is warming, but the issue is why. i don't pretend to know it's because of man, a natural cycle, or both.

you're right when you state there's been warm-ups before. i wonder what influence, if any, man has on this one.
last edited: 2/16/05 12:35:22 PM”

“Melting glaciers will in fact cause sea levels to rise, I believe Ultra was confused with the artic ice cap. Melting of the artic ice, which is already displacing the water, will not cause sea levels to rise.
Bison
11:46:41 AM
2/16/05

Totally true Bison, the ice which is already floating in sea water is already displacing its mass. It floats because it is frozen its bond angle between Hydrogens is a little over 109 degrees. In the liquid form the bond angle is 105 degrees or less. Water molecules are most dense at 4 degrees C. Above or below that temperature they push apart. Above 4 degrees C the water molecules start to party and slam dancing like punks from the 80's breaks out. They get more and more excited as it heats up and like all of us when were hot and sweaty we want our space. So much or the sea level rise will be due no to melting of land ice but expansion of sea water.

The part of man? Certainly we play a part in the overall puzzle. The cutting of forest and the release of CO2 adds to the problem. Fortunately prehistory evidence poits to periods of much colder and much hotter periods in our past. The changes will continue to occur with or without us. With increasing population and development of the world, the ecology will undoubtly suffer. The key to limiting the damage is to reduce consumption and population. I am one of the guilty ones with 3 cars, 4 boats and numerous other toys. A few generations from now maybe we will get our heads screwed on straight and tackle this mess. Increasing global energy cost will eventually be a positive thing for the environment. It will make gross consumerism expensive which will cause more exploration for energy and cutting of more forest for resources till we run out of fossil fuels. Then and only then will clean restorable energy enter the picture. Then we will replant the wasteland that was once earth.”

“The strongest evidence yet that global warming has been triggered by human activity has emerged from a major study of rising temperatures in the world’s oceans.

The present trend of warmer sea temperatures, which have risen by an average of half a degree Celsius (0.9F) over the past 40 years, can be explained only if greenhouse gas emissions are responsible, new research has revealed.

The results are so compelling that they should end controversy about the causes of climate change, one of the scientists who led the study said yesterday.

"The debate about whether there is a global warming signal now is over, at least for rational people," said Tim Barnett, of the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in La Jolla, California. "The models got it right. If a politician stands up and says the uncertainty is too great to believe these models, that is no longer tenable."

In the study, Dr Barnett’s team examined more than seven million observations of temperature, salinity and other variables in the world’s oceans, collected by the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, and compared the patterns with those that are predicted by computer models of various potential causes of climate change.

It found that natural variation in the Earth’s climate, or changes in solar activity or volcanic eruptions, which have been suggested as alternative explanations for rising temperatures, could not explain the data collected in the real world. Models based on man-made emissions of greenhouse gases, however, matched the observations almost precisely.

"What absolutely nailed it was the greenhouse model," Dr Barnett told the American Association for the Advancement of Science conference in Washington. Two models, one designed in Britain and one here in the US, got it almost exactly. We were stunned. They did it so well it was almost unbelieveable."

continued...”

“[quote]and compared the patterns with those that are predicted by computer models of various potential causes of climate change.[/quote]

Herein lies the problem with this kind of highly politicized science.”

“All I have to go by is what I have seen in my lifetime. I know Nashville doesn't get the cold/snow that we use to get in the winter based on what we got when I was a kid. Our summer season tends to be starting earlier and ending later. It has got to the point there really isn't a spring or fall.
Does that mean there is global warming, maybe, maybe not. But something has changed over time.”

“Great piece in NY Times today about the effect warming in the arctic is having on lives up there.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/20/science/earth/20arctic.ready.html”

“Here's a similar one about Martian global warming too.

http://www.scienceblog.com/cms/mars_climate_in_flux_9111”

“Maybe you should read it first Sarge....oh, I'm sorry, facts are irrelevant to all your arguments.
It deals with the impact of warming, not on the causes of it.”

“WayTooScary - Nobody cares if the earth is warming.

The whole point is if we are causing it or not.

If not, then it's just the nightly weather. Whatever.

It's not us.”

“Since maybe you didn't read your own article, here is a clip from near the end:

Norway and the seven other Arctic nations have started to discuss ways to protect the environment they share in a forum called the Arctic Council, established nine years ago. In 2002, the council issued guidelines for offshore oil drilling, calling for drilling projects to be preceded by studies on environmental effects and the availability of cleanup equipment.

The guidelines come with no enforcement powers, but several experts say they think they will have some effect, particularly because Russia is preparing for entry into the World Trade Organization and seeking closer ties with the European Union.

This isn't about effect. This is about socialist New York Times and their poorly hidden agenda.”

“All I know is that we haven't had a good winter in 5 years and this one looks like it won't be any different.”

“Sarge - no, it's only you that doesn't care about stuff that goes on outside your own little tiny world.”

“Sarge - this has actually taken place? What the hell are you talking about. It's a relevant piece of information.”

“WayTooScary - Nobody cares if the earth is warming.

The whole point is if we are causing it or not.

If not, then it's just the nightly weather. Whatever.

It's not us.”
SARGEantSlaughter


plenty of people do not believe it's happening at all sarge.
how can people begin to accept any cause (natural or artificial) if they don't believe the trend exists in the first place?”

“Sarge managed to read what, a 3,000 word story in four minutes. That's impressive - I've been missunderestimating you.”

“Waytooscary - Read saccos post for somebody who didn't try to twist what I wrote.

sacco - Good point. I agree with that.”

“sacco - What gets me though is the NYTs assumption that it's man-made causes.”

“The article is only 2,822 words.”

“ok, so that's quite funny sarge.

Anyhow, the piece you quote is talking about the impact of oil drilling, not dabbling with the question of emissions and greenhouse gasses.

In 2002, the council issued guidelines for offshore oil drilling, calling for drilling projects to be preceded by studies on environmental effects and the availability of cleanup equipment. ”